Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[volks27]

I'm one that will probably take the money and run; assuming that:

- 70% of msrp + 5K will be more than what I paid (used) for the 2012 3 years ago.

Many will probably want to off load theirs too. Now that being said, what should we do with the dealer $500 they gave us ? I'm running away from VW as much as I enjoyed 25 years owning them.

 

[bring]

I actually find it amazing that there are still people saying that there will be no buyback (or no reason for VW to buy back in this case) gen 2 and gen 3 TDI's. This is after VW has agreed to buy back all 2.0 TDI's from 2009-2015 model years. This is a part of the framework agreement that was announced - they agreed to buy them back and offer an option for a fix provided that such a fix is agreed upon. Currently there is no agreed upon fix for any of these TDI's but even if it does happen it will be just an available option in addition to and not instead of a buyback - this is a fact that was announced already. Personally I find it difficult to imagine that such a fix will actually be agreed to by the regulators even for the EA288 engines - but that is just a personal opinion and we'll find the actual facts at the end of June.

VW already knows the impact of correcting the EA288 - when this all came out last fall they were floating the nonsense about "top end speed only being slightly reduced" instead of giving us the numbers we care about, like what the torque and hp would drop to. They know we won't like it.

 

[shovelhd]

VW would be wise to put some statisticians to work sussing out how much of the drop in prices is due to dieselgate and how much is due to the market shift towards gas guzzlers. I suspect after crunching the data, they'd have a good argument to reduce the buyout prices.

If your theory is correct, how much have Prius prices dropped since September 2015? Show me the numbers.

 

[flyanddive]

Most manufacturers did not design and build whole new engines to pass the current EPA and Euro standards, they added SCR and retuned existing engines- That doesn't cost $10k. As for the fine, these are always negotiated down, especially if the cars are brought into compliance. Sounds like you're just promoting a false meme in hopes that VW will buy you out.

Those trucks have different emission standards, I'm not taking the buyout, and yes, the SCR if that is the fix, is going to cost over $10K per car. The design, and testing is hundreds of millions alone, parts, labor, fines, it all adds up. That's why they set aside $18+ billion, and it will go higher.

 

[Smashed Ixnay]

Mine needs tires too, planning to call around and source out some super cheap ones or better yet, used. Just need them to go half a year...

Buyback will be a no brainer here. We wanted to change vehicles just as the scandal hit. I called and wanted to talk them about buying it for FMV and I'd skip the rust warranty. They wouldn't talk about it or bump it up the line. Now we've waited 7 months, closer to 10 when they get all the details out. Rust work is being done (going in tomorrow) and we'll end up with more than FMV from the buyback.

I don't feel bad about VW paying more for making me wait.

As much as I love this car, I would love to do a buy back, but can't. My wife is in the masters program to become a nurse practitioner and will be going down to two days a week for work. I had to drastically cut back my work hours to make them work out for her work and school schedule. She won't be done till May 2018. We don't have a car payment atm, which is financially helping us out. I planned on getting a truck later this year (realisticly next year), so that is 1 vehicle payment we will have again. To do a buy back would mean she'd have to get a used vehicle that she really doesn't want (nor I), or have two car payments. I suppose I could also not get a truck and let her get an SUV, but I need a new vehicle also because we have two daughers now and they need something safer.

If my wife was done with school, then it'd be a no brainer for us also because we could afford a car payment, or two even, but atm, there is no way we can afford two.

I'll just wait for the complete details to come out and see how the fix will affect our car.

I am glad it works out for you. I'm sure you are just some of the few that this benefits them, but for the majority of us, it's a real crappy situation now.

 

[ClaimJumper]

C4C, Fed Diesel rebate, & AZ state incentive

At 73 years old I'm not as good at this as I was when I wore a younger mans shoes, but her goes how I see my case;
Bought 2009 JSW in July 2009

MSRP about 24,000 BTW the day after I bought they went to 10% over MSRP since they were running out of TDI's.
Cash 4 Clunker 4,500
Value of clunker -1,500
Federal Rebate 1,300
AZ State Tax Rebate ??? don't remember, but there was one.
TOTAL COST TO ME 19,700 Almost 7 years ago.
--------------------------------------------
VW Buy Back possibility
Two Credit Cards 1,000
KBB Fair Market Value Sept 2015 12,100
Cash Bonus 5,000
TOTAL I RECEIVE FOR 7 YEAR OLD CAR 18,100
-------------------------------
Net Cost to me for seven years of use $1,600, or about $230 a year,
PLUS SOME TAX & LIC stuff I'm ignoring here since it is spread over 7 years, & I can' THINK that hard anymore.

I'm not a TROLL, so will not DEBATE with anyone about this post, but if anyone has anything to add, I'd be glad to read your thoughts.

 

[Lodi781]

And to burst another bubble, the "Cash for Clunkers" buyback at 700,000 cars was spread over the whole industry, of which VW is only a couple percent. C4C rapidly became a cluster... Eligible new cars selling out, dealer lots filling with clunkers, and dealers having cash flow crisis while waiting for reimbursement. Many of the clunkers were never even properly recycled, as the 6 months allowed for the car to be scrapped didn't give the recyclers time to do much more than drain the fluids and send the clunkers to the crusher.

So like the other massive recalls like the Toyota pickup frames, Jeep fuel tanks, GM ignition switches, and Takata air bags this one will probably drag out over a decade or more. Sorry, but you're just going to have to drive your 40 MPG sports sedan for a few more years... Deal with it!

Incorrect. I own a toyota truck that had a frame recall. The only thing that held it up was me. They were harassing the hell out of me to get it back.

 

[Bisoned]

For a start, the gen 2 and gen 3 cars can be brought into compliance with a flash and a lifetime supply of free DEF- No reason to buy them back. Of the gen 1 cars, most can be retrofitted with SCR for a couple thousand dollars, with the exception of models like the Beetle where space is tight for a DEF tank. Those and the ratty cars with a couple hundred thousand miles on them that aren't worth retrofitting are the only cars really in need of buyback. Cut it down to those cars alone, and the buyback becomes much more manageable.

absolutely clues..... you haven't retained anything from this

 

[skinnyb]

We have a 2010 Jetta TDI with 107k miles atm. We need new tires very soon, and with us having 2 years to sell it back or get it fixed, I can't hold off. I'm going to fork out about $700-$800 for tires and eat the cost, but it might not all be that bad since I'm thinking we are going to keep the car.

I don't see us getting $5,000, but we aren't in a situation where we can sell the car back (unless we get msrp, which I know isn't happening), so us keeping it is the most likely thing we are going to do.

I don't know what the fix will consist of, or how they would even fix out 2010 Jetta TDI. So long as we aren't getting hit with a 3+ mpg loss and or drastic hp/tq loss, then I'll leave the car as it is. If it is a fix that hurts any of those 3 things, then a dpf gut and Malone tune will be in order for us.

This is a real crappy situation to be in, but I'll wait for the 2 months or so for the full details to see what is going to be offered.

Either way, if we sell the car back we need tires, and us having 2 years to decide what to do, I won't feel it too much.

I had to put tires on mine a few weeks ago. I however have a set of steelies that will fit with bald tires that will go on if/when the buyback occurs. I can always put the tires/wheels I bought on my R32 and run them out when that time comes.

 

[Jeta Life]

Jeta

Veteran?

... wonder the same too ... as I was new at 1-1-2016 ... maybe just a TDICLUB formula on number of post and or threads you started?

.... I'm sure you have seen the large number of new posters

... and BTW ... Welcome to the newer members

always nice to see the newbies post.

it's kind of like getting a new kid in school, or new worker at the job.

deuxdiesel dropped an awesome post this morning. that's a lot of Vdubs. for somebody to have in their lifetime..wow

When given lemons, make lemonade. Celebrate the event--"VW treats its customers right!" Scenes of happy new GTI owners! Ice cream! Gifts for the kids! VWpalooza! Like any good sales campaign, make it a short-term event--"act now, or these deals will be gone forever!" Hire extra staff to handle the flood of buybacks.
But car companies understand their markets and know which vehicles are cross-shopped. Expect exclusive deals for former TDI owners on Prius, Volvo, Mazda, select BMW models, and others.

VW had better hire somebody to come up with an ad campaign, something, anything.

At this point, all we can do is wait to see what will they dream up next.

This is not just some small company, their course of action these next 2 months will have to be cleverly designed.

I've always liked their cars, but lately their ads have been rather flat. Dealers being driven by customers and made to do chores by customers in the "Sign then Drive" campaign.

The GTI ads were nicely done.

Now this "Safety in Numbers" campaign, also rather subdued and it may be because the brashness of their previous ads (old ladies with diesels, Darth Vader, VW engineers as Angels) .

Main problem I see is their product line. The designs on the cars have also gotten subdued as opposed to the Asians which have gone with some flair. What I'm liking lately is the small crossover segment, but Tiguan too is outdated. Problems for dealers persist due to underdeveloped and aging product lines.

 

[jhawklver]

At 73 years old I'm not as good at this as I was when I wore a younger mans shoes, but her goes how I see my case;
Bought 2009 JSW in July 2009

MSRP about 24,000 BTW the day after I bought they went to 10% over MSRP since they were running out of TDI's.
Cash 4 Clunker 4,500
Value of clunker -1,500
Federal Rebate 1,300
AZ State Tax Rebate ??? don't remember, but there was one.
TOTAL COST TO ME 19,700 Almost 7 years ago.
--------------------------------------------
VW Buy Back possibility
Two Credit Cards 1,000
KBB Fair Market Value Sept 2015 12,100
Cash Bonus 5,000
TOTAL I RECEIVE FOR 7 YEAR OLD CAR 18,100
-------------------------------
Net Cost to me for seven years of use $1,600, or about $230 a year,
PLUS SOME TAX & LIC stuff I'm ignoring here since it is spread over 7 years, & I can' THINK that hard anymore.

I'm not a TROLL, so will not DEBATE with anyone about this post, but if anyone has anything to add, I'd be glad to read your thoughts.

I have often said we all have our own situations, and I respect yours. We aren't that dissimilar in that I agree that depending on the details, many of us may have gotten use of a vehicle for years for a very low amount when all said and done. I don't feel bad nor do I sympathize with VW about that at all. Their actions, and the consequences are all on them.

I think the only difference in how I am setting up my math is not giving full credit for $1000 compensation cards. Too many stipulations and the dealer one isn't worth full value to me at this time. Not even close at this point.

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk

 

[JohnNS]

As much as I love this car, I would love to do a buy back, but can't. My wife is in the masters program to become a nurse practitioner and will be going down to two days a week for work. I had to drastically cut back my work hours to make them work out for her work and school schedule. She won't be done till May 2018. We don't have a car payment atm, which is financially helping us out. I planned on getting a truck later this year (realisticly next year), so that is 1 vehicle payment we will have again. To do a buy back would mean she'd have to get a used vehicle that she really doesn't want (nor I), or have two car payments. I suppose I could also not get a truck and let her get an SUV, but I need a new vehicle also because we have two daughers now and they need something safer.

If my wife was done with school, then it'd be a no brainer for us also because we could afford a car payment, or two even, but atm, there is no way we can afford two.

I'll just wait for the complete details to come out and see how the fix will affect our car.

I am glad it works out for you. I'm sure you are just some of the few that this benefits them, but for the majority of us, it's a real crappy situation now.

Have to see how it shakes out. I have a hunch it'll work in your (and most people's) favour. Although you may still have to get a used car I suspect you'd be able to get a newer than 2010 one (as a gasser) or a very significant down payment on a new one. Using buybackmytdi's listing for a 2010 pre-scandal they have it listed at 13kish. Throw in the 'leaked' 5k (which I think is incorrect on the low side) you're sitting at 18k. Quick check of the basic of basic JSW 2016 is about 24.5k (CND).. 6.5k difference isn't bad.

Just spit-balling of course, but don't lose hope on that truck just yet

 

[pkhoury]

What the hell will come of TDiclub if there are no more TDi's???

There will still be plenty of members on here with pre 2009 TDI's.
Dieselgate only affects a portion of TDI owners.

It will take a long time for 20 model years of TDIs to disappear.

I thought some of the mods were looking to abandon ship and move to the Tesla/Prius?

And I'm sure some (members/non-members in general, not moderators) might jump ship from the old models, because they're "not green enough" and still emit a ton of NOx.

 

[meerschm]

Last time I checked, this site does not require you to forego any other interest.

many driveways have room for more than one car.

and the TDI is a great complement to a battery powered one.

 

[MotoTDI]

At 73 years old I'm not as good at this as I was when I wore a younger mans shoes, but her goes how I see my case;
Bought 2009 JSW in July 2009

MSRP about 24,000 BTW the day after I bought they went to 10% over MSRP since they were running out of TDI's.
Cash 4 Clunker 4,500
Value of clunker -1,500
Federal Rebate 1,300
AZ State Tax Rebate ??? don't remember, but there was one.
TOTAL COST TO ME 19,700 Almost 7 years ago.
--------------------------------------------
VW Buy Back possibility
Two Credit Cards 1,000
KBB Fair Market Value Sept 2015 12,100
Cash Bonus 5,000
TOTAL I RECEIVE FOR 7 YEAR OLD CAR 18,100
-------------------------------
Net Cost to me for seven years of use $1,600, or about $230 a year,
PLUS SOME TAX & LIC stuff I'm ignoring here since it is spread over 7 years, & I can' THINK that hard anymore.

I'm not a TROLL, so will not DEBATE with anyone about this post, but if anyone has anything to add, I'd be glad to read your thoughts.

Not sure what VW will do for us with older non SCR cars with low miles. My 2010 Golf TDI only has 38K miles and was purchased new. It was only used for long distance trips only thus the low mileage. Based on many of the same age, it appears reasonable to expect a useable life of 140K miles or more.

Not sure I can replace my car with something equivalent through a buyout. What option should I take (buyout or VW Fix)?

 

[autdi]

I actually find it amazing that there are still people saying that there will be no buyback (or no reason for VW to buy back in this case) gen 2 and gen 3 TDI's. This is after VW has agreed to buy back all 2.0 TDI's from 2009-2015 model years. This is a part of the framework agreement that was announced - they agreed to buy them back and offer an option for a fix provided that such a fix is agreed upon. Currently there is no agreed upon fix for any of these TDI's but even if it does happen it will be just an available option in addition to and not instead of a buyback - this is a fact that was announced already. Personally I find it difficult to imagine that such a fix will actually be agreed to by the regulators even for the EA288 engines - but that is just a personal opinion and we'll find the actual facts at the end of June.

The buyback on gen 2&3 may have little to nothing to do with being able to fix them, and more to do with making the FTC claim go away. Lacking any hard data at this point, we don't know if the SCR is large enough or not. If not, then it gets harder to fix, but still not impossible. The SCR is downstream of the DPF, so it can sit anywhere between the urea mixing chamber and the end of the tailpipe, yes I'm thinking the muffler space is looking attractive if it has to go somewhere, and needs lots of space.

 

[MotoTDI]

If VW actually has a fix that can be applied to the newer TDI engines with the latest SCR hardware, what would be their reason to offer a buyback? makes me think Yes, they will buy any TDI back but the amount may not be worth it financially.

 

[jims2321]

As much I'd like to think that those pre-SCR cars will have a fix; logic, legalities and reality say differently.
Logically, it does not make economic sense for VW to even try to fix the problem. They've know about this issue for 7 or more years and could not resolve it.
Legally, it's a can of worms, any fix that could potentially lead to fatalities no matter how remote is not going to move forward. Forget get about the EPA/CARB and DOJ, the NHTSA will not allow mass change to the mechanics of these cars to accommodate the addition of an SCR system, if it evolves significant changes to exhaust, wiring and plumbing.
Finally realistically, VW is better off if they can get most of these cars off the road from a PR stand point. Every day they are mentioned in the news about this whole mess is just another cut.
Jim

 

[dmarsingill]

Well, I will be getting a new engine out of the deal anyway so there's that.

From who???

Donald

 

[autdi]

If VW actually has a fix that can be applied to the newer TDI engines with the latest SCR hardware, what would be their reason to offer a buyback? makes me think Yes, they will buy any TDI back but the amount may not be worth it financially.

Those that claim to be defrauded and can't stand to see a dirty polluting TDI anymore would still sue to extract compensation for pain and suffering, and fraud, and whatever else they dream up to get more cash. By just buying it back, even if easily fixed, this all goes away.

 

[banshee365]

I've clicked through so many pages and can't keep up with threadzilla.

Are the Passat's included in the planned buy back and everything that went into the news on the 21st? Most of the articles I've read only mention the non-SCR 2.0's.

 

[JSWTDI09]

Are the Passat's included in the planned buy back and everything that went into the news on the 21st? Most of the articles I've read only mention the non-SCR 2.0's.

All 2009+ TDIs are included somehow. The details will not be made public until at least June 21st. Therefore the simple answer is that the Passats are included. However, how they will be included and whether or not they will be fixed or bought back is anybody's guess at this point.

Have Fun!

Don

 

[austintg]

I've clicked through so many pages and can't keep up with threadzilla.



Are the Passat's included in the planned buy back and everything that went into the news on the 21st? Most of the articles I've read only mention the non-SCR 2.0's.

Edit: the above post must've been delayed, sorry for the double.
No actual information had been given about any of the cars. We'll have to wait for the jun 21st release of information.

 

[bizzle]

In part, yes I think the TDI prices are somewhat depressed due to cheap fuel. That said it's very hard to determine the loss of value due to fuel prices, cuz you know, we have the whole dieselgate thing to deal with.
It is amazing what short term fuel prices do wrt to consumer behaviour, when the prices ratchet up again (and they will) there's gonna be a LOT of folks who bought big ass SUV's and trucks wishing they had made different choices. It's amazing how short sighted people can be.

I wouldn't think too deeply about it. The reality is that fuel prices move people from Dodges to Escalades and back, or from Toyota sedans to SUVs and back, but they don't *usually* move people into TDIs or out of them.

Diesel owners are a niche category. Couple that with nearly half the TDIs in this country are in California and Oregon, where a gallon of diesel is significantly more expensive than gas, and most people I've talked to about my diesel cars over the decades are either surprised that the car is diesel in the first place and/or surprised that mile per gallon costs are less expensive than gas.

Most people see diesels as expensive to own and expensive to drive.
I think it's more accurate to conclude that lower fuel prices free up enough money for someone to buy a *new* car/truck, and the domestic manufacturers have some really nice incentives to lure people in, but that few people switch from one tier of vehicle to another (and the corollary to that--back to the fuel sipping tier when prices climb) based on fuel prices. In so far as it's a consideration, it's at the bottom of a long list of considerations.

I'm not saying people don't factor fuel prices in to their decisions, but not in the direct way it's being thought about in this thread. I switched from fuel gulpers to fuel sippers decades ago. But it was a one-time event and it was shaped by a lot of other factors, too. Now I still consider fuel economy but it's all in the context of me having already narrowed the field down to vehicles that match my lifestyle. My lifestyle isn't going to change simply because fuel prices change and that's the issue that tends to be missing from people saying that TDI values are swinging in line with crude oil pricing. That's a massive stretch in my experience.

 

[pkhoury]

We have a 2010 Jetta TDI with 107k miles atm. We need new tires very soon, and with us having 2 years to sell it back or get it fixed, I can't hold off. I'm going to fork out about $700-$800 for tires and eat the cost, but it might not all be that bad since I'm thinking we are going to keep the car.

I don't see us getting $5,000, but we aren't in a situation where we can sell the car back (unless we get msrp, which I know isn't happening), so us keeping it is the most likely thing we are going to do.

I don't know what the fix will consist of, or how they would even fix out 2010 Jetta TDI. So long as we aren't getting hit with a 3+ mpg loss and or drastic hp/tq loss, then I'll leave the car as it is. If it is a fix that hurts any of those 3 things, then a dpf gut and Malone tune will be in order for us.

Like many others have speculated, even if buybacks or something concrete is announced in June, do you really think everyone's car with get fixed or bought back that week? Probably not. Trust me, you don't want to be driving around with bald tires. I lived in central FL for several months in 2014 doing my grad research. I know how bad storms can get there, and I'd be more concerned with my safety driving in the rain (or on slick roads) than saving money on tires. And unless you get the crappy ProContacts that came with the car (I use the Continental ExtremeContact DWS or DWS06 and they work GREAT in the rain), tires shouldn't cost more than $650-700, including installation.

As for the DPF and Malone - after doing that, I couldn't really see myself doing a buyback. Love the way the car drives/feels (but I also spend a lot of time in my car each year).

 

[pkhoury]

If VW actually has a fix that can be applied to the newer TDI engines with the latest SCR hardware, what would be their reason to offer a buyback? makes me think Yes, they will buy any TDI back but the amount may not be worth it financially.

Probably to mitigate complaints if a fix was done. Do a buyback and the car is no longer your problem, along with relinquishing any and all claims, past, future and present, with your TDI. VW spends a little more up front, and covers their ass in the long term if future problems crop up.

 

[gcodori]

This has been one heck of an ordeal so far...

So before the agreement:

The EPA and CARB are very upset. Fines for everyone! Giving them away for free. None of the cars are fixable - we won't allow these on the street.

The FTC wants in on things too. Boy will VW be sorry.

The Plan - We'll deny any plan that isn't detailed to the Nth degree.

Mic drop!

XXXXXX


After VW starts making it rain dead presidents (and a few soon to be Tubmans)....

The EPA and CARB...Well hey guess what? VW and I are gonna play some golf. Things are good now. The FTC is tagging along to. We're all bros, right? The cars? MEH - maybe they can be fix and maybe not. WHO KNOWS??

The plan - HUH? Plan? What do you guys got? All I got is a bunch of

Maybe we'll give them 2 years to figure it out. And they can put money into a fund to finance chargers they'll never get around to building.

WINNING!

 

[Gonehuckin]

This has been one heck of an ordeal so far...
So before the agreement:
The EPA and CARB are very upset. Fines for everyone! Giving them away for free. None of the cars are fixable - we won't allow these on the street.
The FTC wants in on things too. Boy will VW be sorry.
The Plan - We'll deny any plan that isn't detailed to the Nth degree.
Mic drop!
XXXXXX
After VW starts making it rain dead presidents (and a few soon to be Tubmans)....
The EPA and CARB...Well hey guess what? VW and I are gonna play some golf. Things are good now. The FTC is tagging along to. We're all bros, right? The cars? MEH - maybe they can be fix and maybe not. WHO KNOWS??
The plan - HUH? Plan? What do you guys got? All I got is a bunch of

Maybe we'll give them 2 years to figure it out. And they can put money into a fund to finance chargers they'll never get around to building.
WINNING!

Welcome to what happens when your government gets bought and paid for by corporations and their lobbyists.

 

[KyMoonshine]

Was just wondering to see how many TDI's were sold in each state, what the breakdown was, i.e. 100,000 in ca

There seems to be at least 3800 in my state

http://www.courier-journal.com/stor...ky-attorney-general-sues-volkswagon/82124600/

 

[Vidgamer]

....
I've always liked their cars, but lately their ads have been rather flat. Dealers being driven by customers and made to do chores by customers in the "Sign then Drive" campaign.
The GTI ads were nicely done.
Now this "Safety in Numbers" campaign, also rather subdued and it may be because the brashness of their previous ads (old ladies with diesels, Darth Vader, VW engineers as Angels) .

Among my favorite ads of all time were the GTI ads from several years ago.... "Un-pimp your ride." It was a brilliant response to the trend of people modifying their Civics.

Main problem I see is their product line. The designs on the cars have also gotten subdued as opposed to the Asians which have gone with some flair. What I'm liking lately is the small crossover segment, but Tiguan too is outdated. Problems for dealers persist due to underdeveloped and aging product lines.

Yeah, things are kind of bland except maybe the Beetle, which is an unusual design that most people aren't going to be interested in. What about the Scirocco? That looks nice, but maybe sporty cars aren't selling enough for them to bother. But yeah, their lineup seems a bit plain-looking -- more conservative than Honda's.