Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[Borsig]

Unless the fix somehow extends the reliability, increases the mileage and power and comes with a lifelong warranty (which, in truth, you already know won't be the case)....

California owners like yourself will be forced to get the fix or sell. CA holds registration on cars until emissions recalls are completed and proof is given to the DMV. Already happened to me with my Gen2 in January (emission recall) that is now causing fires in Passats.

If the fix turns out to be ****e, you'd be better off selling and getting something else.

Which really sucks, as other makes of diesel are expensive, gas cars aren't as engaging as drivers, and car buying overall sucks. Plus, you'll be getting a used replacement car or biting the bullet and spending more on a newer one.

And the best part? The other 38 states will be able to skip the fix, keep the payout and laugh all the way to the bank at CARB. Who will be checking over there? This is proof that CARB and the EPA care less about the environment (and the owner) and more for the penalty.

You can rest assured to get any payout, you will have to buyback, or fix. You wont be able to sit out and still get compensated.

 

[Borsig]

http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/filelibrary/1738/April_21_Transcript.pdf

has transcript of the hearing.

separately:

Reuters reported on Wednesday that owners will get around two years to decide whether to sell their vehicles back including the 2009-2015 diesel Jetta and will be offered the estimated value of the vehicles from September 2015, before the scandal erupted, along with an unspecified premium.

​

this last part is an example of the leaked details the judge does not want further discussed before the gov't says the agreement is ok.

we are likely to get two years to decide, not have to wait two years to see what the options are.

If I bought my car NEW in July 2015, what does that make my value in sept 2015? LOL

 

[pknopp]

You won't be able to renew your license plate, and likely insurance as well.

That's unlikely to happen for most. Maybe in a state like California but for the majority the hassle of fighting to keep a few cars off the road isn't going to be worth it especially when an owner will be able to prove there are cars on the road that emit more pollutants.

The judge knows this which is why the "substantial compensation" came into play. I still really like my car and would continue to drive it UNLESS someone is willing to give me substantially more than it's worth. I believe most people will be the same.

There will be a small number of hold outs that will be allowed to fall through the cracks.

 

[oilhammer]

Unless the fix somehow extends the reliability, increases the mileage and power and comes with a lifelong warranty (which, in truth, you already know won't be the case)....
California owners like yourself will be forced to get the fix or sell. CA holds registration on cars until emissions recalls are completed and proof is given to the DMV. Already happened to me with my Gen2 in January (emission recall) that is now causing fires in Passats.
If the fix turns out to be ****e, you'd be better off selling and getting something else.
Which really sucks, as other makes of diesel are expensive, gas cars aren't as engaging as drivers, and car buying overall sucks. Plus, you'll be getting a used replacement car or biting the bullet and spending more on a newer one.
And the best part? The other 38 states will be able to skip the fix, keep the payout and laugh all the way to the bank at CARB. Who will be checking over there? This is proof that CARB and the EPA care less about the environment (and the owner) and more for the penalty

And those of us in the other 38 states fight tooth and nail with our local officials to be sure we STAY an un-CARB state. I feel for your guys, but I think the common sense thinkers are outnumbered by the crazy whacks in California. But, write letters, organize petitions, etc.

 

[ChimneyJim]

Mr. Jackson of Autonation "QUOTE"

Opinion of VW in US is getting worse.

Maybe the US "base" is not yet aware of the head roads of yesterday

Source CNBC

He goes on to say that 2-3 year CAR leases are (or will be) a problem for the future

Are you quoting or paraphrasing? What is a "head road"?

 

[Borsig]

VW increases compensation money to 18.2 Billion dollars

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...e-18-2-billion-for-diesel-cheating-provisions
.

thats not compensation money, thats the entire lot of money.

 

[flyanddive]

You have to understand why they cheated, to figure out there is no minor fix coming, these cars are designed for gas engines, and the only way to have the TDI option was to cheat emissions. Some bean counter figured out this was the cheaper way to go, than redesigning the entire car. From this, you can figure out that the fix will be either full car replacement, retrofit the adblue system to the later cars, or retrofit to the gas engine on the earlier cars/all the cars.

 

[meerschm]

If I bought my car NEW in July 2015, what does that make my value in sept 2015? LOL

my guess is that a 2015 will have buyback/fix/substantial skewed to make it more likely to make a fix worthwhile.

the settlement is supposed to relieve you of the cost from the scandal, not the cost of driving off the lot.

(plus a little to ease the pain)

 

[autdi]

That's unlikely to happen for most. Maybe in a state like California but for the majority the hassle of fighting to keep a few cars off the road isn't going to be worth it especially when an owner will be able to prove there are cars on the road that emit more pollutants.

The judge knows this which is why the "substantial compensation" came into play. I still really like my car and would continue to drive it UNLESS someone is willing to give me substantially more than it's worth. I believe most people will be the same.

There will be a small number of hold outs that will be allowed to fall through the cracks.

It also puts the state on the hook to replace the car, it's called regulatory taking. By their action, denying use of the car as it was, they have taken away the usefulness of the car to you, and thus must compensate you for that taking of use.

 

[shovelhd]

I'm in a CARB state so my only options will be fix or replace. I don't want some dealer jockey hacking at my car, but there may be no other choice. I tow a 5x8 landscape trailer on a regular basis. What small hatchback or wagon can do the same? Can I tow with a GSW TSI? GTI? Focus? Mazda 3? Without voiding my warranty? There's just not a lot of small wagons out there that can do what my JSW TDI can do.

 

[Borsig]

my guess is that a 2015 will have buyback/fix/substantial skewed to make it more likely to make a fix worthwhile.

the settlement is supposed to relieve you of the cost from the scandal, not the cost of driving off the lot.

(plus a little to ease the pain)

yeah I dont think so. Im out MORE than the rest of these people in older models. I dont deserve any less, and I traded in a 2010 on it.

I dont want a 'fix'. Skewing it would open up more worms. I dont want my HP or mileage reduced, and they were under investigation already when they sold me that car.

Thats a good way to get sued. I dont think they will differentiate.

 

[redbarron55]

Here is what I think will happen for my cars.
VW will offer less than what it will take to buyback my cars and I will tell them to bugger off and here comes Malone on the 2013 when the DPF cracks like it did in the 2009.
This time it will be Malone 2 with DSG tune and Buzzken downpipe and if Andrew will sell me another 2 Micron fuel setup that too..
Probably in conjunction with the timing belt service that will be about due for that car then.
This will be in 1 1/2 years or so for the offer and rejection.
Unless something else craps out then back it goes.

 

[TCBinaflash]

VW increases compensation money to 18.2 Billion dollars
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...e-18-2-billion-for-diesel-cheating-provisions
.

That's for the full breadth of the scandal- not just "compensation".

 

[MrSprdSheet]

Reuters reported on Wednesday that owners will get around two years to decide whether to sell their vehicles back including the 2009-2015 diesel Jetta and will be offered the estimated value of the vehicles from September 2015, before the scandal erupted, along with an unspecified premium.​

Dunno, but feel cynical, and that:
-Reuters was trying to help VW look as good as possible, with the 2-year thing
-And as good as possible, with the "$5,000", when the Financial news giant knows better how $1,000,000,000 divides into 470,000.

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Why wouldn't VW scale the "compensation" payment down to zero, as those keeping cars for 2 years ate up their time? Then, buyback like they claim to offer. One thing that makes sense is VW will soon have more TDIs than they know what to do with. So, who knows how patient they will be?​

 

[Cayman]

interesting choices of replacement cars http://jalopnik.com/what-car-should-you-buy-to-replace-your-diesel-volkswag-1772248379

 

[LogicBomb]

http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/filelibrary/1738/April_21_Transcript.pdf

has transcript of the hearing.

separately:

Reuters reported on Wednesday that owners will get around two years to decide whether to sell their vehicles back including the 2009-2015 diesel Jetta and will be offered the estimated value of the vehicles from September 2015, before the scandal erupted, along with an unspecified premium.

​

this last part is an example of the leaked details the judge does not want further discussed before the gov't says the agreement is ok.

we are likely to get two years to decide, not have to wait two years to see what the options are.

I'm not saying we have to wait 2 years to see what the options are, that's clearly been laid out by the Judge as happening in June. The details will come out as to what the buy back will entail, but there's no mention of a fix, just "repairs". Which is super ambiguous.

"In law, an agreement in principle is a stepping stone to a contract. Such agreements with regard to the principle are usually considered fair and equitable. Even if not all details are known, an agreement in principle may, for example, outline a schedule of royalties."

The Court: It is also my understanding that the agreement will give
consumers several options, including the option to have
Volkswagen buy back their vehicle; and, subject to governmental
approval after further testing, the option to have the
consumer's vehicle modified in accordance with the agreement;
and for those consumers who have leased their car, to cancel
the lease and return the car to Volkswagen.

The above makes it seems like a fix hasn't even been proposed. Just that when one is, it's subject to Government testing/approval prior to being offered to consumers.

 

[dgoodhue]

I hope if the compensation is $5000 (or whatever the amount ends up being) , that it isn't a $2500 visa card and a $2500 dealer card. I want check that I can cash and apply to the principal of my JSW loan.

 

[Scratchy101]

I'm betting that if you go with the buy-back deal from VW, you will have to sign a waiver to forfeit your rights to any proceeds from the many class action lawsuits underway....
That would be one way VW could reduce the financial loss from this fiasco.

 

[aliasbane]

All I know is based on what I paid for my car and pre scandal book values I will be our over 10k I a buy back

 

[autdi]

I'm betting that if you go with the buy-back deal from VW, you will have to sign a waiver to forfeit your rights to any proceeds from the many class action lawsuits underway....
That would be one way VW could reduce the financial loss from this fiasco.

You are already in the class, unless you opt-out. Whatever the deal is that is revealed in June you will be stuck with, unless you individually get out of the class. There is nothing to sign away, once the judge makes the settlement final, that's what you get.

 

[PFCoppinger]

Now having read the transcript, I think it is not necessarily the case that the "fix" brings the vehicle into complete compliance with the regulations. VW is to establish a fund to mitigate the excess emissions that "are coming" from these vehicles. That leaves open the possibility that there is a fix to partially reduce NOx, and VW will be required to pay into this mitigation fund to mitigate the excess NOX emitted by the vehicles that stay on the road.

That kind of suggests that the buyback and potentially partial fix might be designed to reduce the overall ongoing NOx emissions by reducing the number of cars on the road, and the emissions (to the extent they deem feasible) from those that stay on the road, and VW pays into the mitigation fund to cover whats leftover.

I guess time will tell, but the "framework" as described by the judge leaves open the possibility that the menu of options will be broad enough to make nearly all of us happy.

 

[Flogger]

If miles are part of any buyback formula, the only workable option is using the actual mileage at the point of buyback, even if Sept 2015 valuations are used for the rest of that value determination. No muss, no fuss, no "guessing"

 

[meerschm]

......





The above makes it seems like a fix hasn't even been proposed. Just that when one is, it's subject to Government testing/approval prior to being offered to consumers.

subject to governmental
approval after further testing, the option to have the
consumer's vehicle modified in accordance with the agreement;


​

We read this differently. I focused on the 'further' modifier of 'testing',



this says to me that testing is under way, but not completed, which would not be the case if a fix has not been developed, and examples put in place on test cars (which we know have been "borrowed" from some owners)

 

[LogicBomb]

What has me wondering is the 18.2bn set aside for the scandal.

I know that when the US Govt. levies fines against corporations, they usually allow them to the fine of the course of a couple of years, and even write them off on taxes. So I don't see a majority of that particular figure going to the government, at least not immediately.

But it also doesn't make sense for a compensation fund, at least not in its entirety as that works out to $37,916 per vehicle, only considering the 2.0's in the US. Which seems entirely way too high.

I mean even if they pay a $10,000 per car fine, and paid the fine immediately, that still leaves $27,916, which might be acceptable for some of us, but for others it may be a bit high?


I guess this is all just pointless anyway, we'll know what's up come June.

 

[haunruh]

https://gearheadgrrrl.com/2016/04/22/vw-youre-spoiling-us-diesel-drivers/

Must say, a good read!! Though I may not agree with it all, but ....

 

[LogicBomb]

subject to governmental
approval after further testing, the option to have the
consumer's vehicle modified in accordance with the agreement;


​

We read this differently. I focused on the 'further' modifier of 'testing',



this says to me that testing is under way, but not completed, which would not be the case if a fix has not been developed, and examples put in place on test cars (which we know have been "borrowed" from some owners)

Aye, I see where you could be right as well. I read the further testing as possibly beyond what VW had done in regards to testing and reporting to them. I wasn't too worried about being wrong or right, just explaining where I was coming from.

2 more months and we'll know where we all stand, for the most part.

 

[pfennig]

We intentionally bought the last 2014 model as we figured it would have the best chance of avoiding the HPFP issues (which we knew about, I did research on all the cars we were considering) and avoiding new-model issues. DW still loves the JSW. I still love the JSW. I hope that VW/Govt come to an agreement that lets us either trade up to a new model GSW TDI for minimal cost, or gives us money to do a hack 'fix' to our car that comes with a lifetime warranty.

VW wouldn't have a hard time keeping us in the VW family -- we're not mortally offended, we like the car, and there really don't seem to be any alternatives in the same price range (we're not wanting a merc or beamer). If TDI is out, GSW gasser would be our first testdrive. I might test drive a Kia Niro in a year, but I don't think it will feel as 'nice' as the JSW. Rav4 Hybrid maybe, but it's economy is mediocre.

What a fun ride this has been, in so many ways!

 

[visionlinx]

Simple logic dictates, vw's quality is only gonna get worse. Cutting corners (half engineering) wasn't new at vw and with this debacle at hand, I bet they are scrambling to find ways (cheat) to overcome losses, especially at the cost of existing/new/future owners.

They will just adjust their balance sheet (take on some debt in the form of issuing bonds, which they are already looking into).

They can also actually improve their quality, sell less units and a higher profit margin (more like their Audi line) and improve the bottom line profit.

 

[thanksimgruven]

HUGE f*cking lawsuits about to happen here.

If any company knowingly sold you a product that was something other than advertised, and then admitted to it - they'd be refunding the consumer 100% MRSP plus, if s/he chooses.

It's common sense. No room for discussion.

 

[LNXGUY]

It's common sense. No room for discussion.

If you kept that car in the exact same condition as it was when it left the dealer lot (aka you put ZERO miles on it) then you might have a case. But I'm guessing that didn't happen.