Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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bubbagumpshrimp

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Virginia
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'13 Jetta TDI
One unintended consequence of VW buying back all the TDI cars is that prices of used TDIs will quickly rise above what VW is willing to pay. If VW offers to pay the value of the car before the scandal plus $5000, that "floor" creates an immediate arbitrage opportunity for people to buy a car at auction then flip it to VW. Auction prices will therefore quickly rise to a value just below the VW "floor" and will exceed it for more desirable cars.
They'll establish a baseline from a set point in time (i.e. Just before the news broke in early September 2015), tack on $'x', and that will be it.

Keep in mind...they're targeting a 90% or so buyback rate...not 100%. They aren't going to attempt to base a compensation, fix, and buyback in the order of $10,000,000,000 based on what a few people do at auction between today and when the agreement is finalized.

But if VW offers me KBB dealer retail as of 9/15 plus $5k, it's gonna be like an all you can eat buffet of miles that closes in two years. I'd be highly tempted to take VW up on that offer, hang onto the TDI 'til the last possible day, and trade it on a new VW. Or maybe buy it back after they add the SCR system?

But my natural inclination is to run it into the ground, like usual... Still got the 2003 and 1986 VW diesels here.
And what happens when on month 23...after tacking on 50k miles...you get t-boned while driving to work? Your car gets towed to a body shop, appraised by your insurance company, and you get a check based on present value...which is jack $h1t. Seriously...anyone that intends to take them up on a buyback but thinks they're going to drive the car around for a year or more and THEN do it...you're rolling the dice. A lot can happen in a year.
 
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meerschm

Top Post Dawg
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Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
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2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
If I were to guess, the fix for a 2015 might just be a little more DEF use (perhaps double), and perhaps a quarter mpg for extra fuel for heat to keep the DPF hot enough. perhaps no impact to MPG.

my real guess is we will all see details of which technical fix(es) is(are) approved some time this summer, as well as the specific process and amounts of buy-back offers.

and it sounds like we each will have some time to decide.

It does seem to me that if someone wants to keep their car as-is (even with illegal modifications) it would be without any $$ more than the loyalty cards. may be this is only an option where air quality does not dictate emissions testing for registration.

depending on the amount of incentives, it may even make personal sense for some folks who have made modifications to restore to stock, get the fix, take the $$, and then press on with life. (re-modded or not)

it also would be nice if they can update the EA288s to reliably and economically pass the emissions standards. but if they cannot, then it is look forward to gassers, seventeen kinds of hybrids, and electric cars
 

autdi

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Alabama
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2000 NB, 2003 NB, 2006 Touareg, 2015 Jetta, 2013 Beetle, 2013 Touareg
Auction prices will be much lower for vehicles that receive an emissions 'fix" because those vehicles are no longer eligible for the VW buyback offer. The interesting question is whether VW will fix high mileage/poor conditions cars and then poison the market by sending them back for sale at auction. Doing so would be very bad for TDI prices. Much better would be taking such vehicles out of US/Canada markets by crushing or exporting them to other countries. If the cars are exported without a fix, they will need a new VIN to prevent them from being reimported.
Was wondering what the arbitrage would look like here. Short of branding the titles on them, most consumers would have zero idea what they bought, as once they go through auction, they end up all over the place, almost never on a VW lot. I've seen buy here pay here lots that were 90% VWs, so there is a market for high miles, cheapo cars. Folks look at carfax or similar and think not too bad. Not a single one has the TDI recall showing on them now (well only looked at a few dozen).
 

peterdaniel

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Location
Campbell, CA
TDI
2003 Jetta GL 5 spd TDi, 2003 Jetta GLS Indigo blue 5spd wagon. 2003 Jetta GLS Candy white wagon 5 speed
any idea how long we can delay renewing plates on Ca. before we start getting tickets?

Uh, how about paying your registration when its due? Ya know... follow the law and being honest... like you all are castrating VW for not being...

See? Its always about who benefits and never what is the honest thing to do...
 

bring

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Jun 21, 2015
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Boston
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'15 Jetta SEL, DSG
Can you elaborate as I have yet to find definitive data that supports your claim. Do you have a link or some technical info? Would love to hear more about this. Thanks in advance.

There are plenty of links out here
 
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gearheadgrrrl

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Location
Buffalo Ridge (southwest Minnesota)
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'15 Golf DSG, '13 JSW DSG surrendered to VW, '03 Golf 2 door manual
Simple logistics...

If the cars trickle into the dealerships over 2 years... trucking, railing, and shipping them to the auctions, Chattanooga, Mexico, Brazil, or third world markets that prize used VW diesels is no great problem.

Someone else said "delusional", I'm thinking i agree...
Within 10 hours you propose vw stockpile all the cars in their boats and play the market and then say, in your vast wisdom, it is a problem for them to hold these cars... pick an opinion!

Or maybe stop calling people whiners and idiots for having different opinions and/or situations than you, or remember that none of us know anything... everything other than the fact that there will be buybacks and "generous compensation" is pure speculation.

I can't wait to see you backpedal again on this one ;)
 

bubbagumpshrimp

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Location
Virginia
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'13 Jetta TDI
Uh, how about paying your registration when its due? Ya know... follow the law and being honest... like you all are castrating VW for not being...
See? Its always about who benefits and never what is the honest thing to do...
No $h1t, lol. My registration is up in July too. I'll be paying to do that shortly . That and I'll go use what's left on my dealer "Goodwill" card to get the 50k service done in a couple weeks...even though it'll be a huge f*****g inconvenience for me. Why will I do it? As you said...It's the right thing to do.
 
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jhawklver

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Kansas City
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2012 Jetta TDI
Dealer put it on my account. I have a receipt for the transaction. It will never expire. I have a $500.00 credit.
I am thinking of trying this. I have 5 dealers within 35 miles so hopefully I can get one to do this. I bought at one and have it serviced at another so those are the most likely. Any tips on how you got them to do it?

The two mentioned above are part of larger auto groups (i.e. same brand, many dealerships). I get it that they probably have different budgets, etc. but if I could get them to add to my account and use it under different automaker? That would be ideal if buyback occurs and safer if fix happens plus they have plenty of other used car brands.

Where I bought: Northtowne Auto Group: Mazda, Fiat, Hyundai, Volkswagen, Mitsubishi, Lincoln.

Where I service: Molle Auto Group Toyota, VW, Audi, Chevy.

Another one is about 35 miles away and has Toyota/Scion, VW

May be a long shot, but could be worth it. I have no issues with the dealers themselves and buying a car in KC area from a larger dealer (unless a Honda or Ford) and I'm likely talking to one of these auto groups anyway.
 

coers

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peoria,il
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2012 VW JETTA TDI, BLACK EXTERIOR AND INTERIOR AND 6SPD MANUAL
that was nice of them. hmm wonder if they would do that for me. I never go there because I do my own maintenance. Might go for tires or the timing belt.
Dealer put it on my account. I have a receipt for the transaction. It will never expire. I have a $500.00 credit.
 

TDILeo

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Portland OR
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CW 2011 Golf TDI 6M Repurchased By VW 1/30/17 1985 VW GTI
Gosh, I really do not know what I would select for an alternate to the TDI. I'm not precisely sure what my car was valued at in mid September 2015. I seem to recall looking at KBB earlier that month for an '11 Golf with winter package and 5k miles in excellent condition at 16>17k.

So if VW enticed me with incentives, a GTI would probably be ok. I have been looking at early 80s MB diesels as well. Maybe one of those and I'll take any extra cash and do some home repairs. I really don't know.
 

bockegg

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Location
PA
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2009 Jetta Loyalty TDi w/ DSG
I drove the 2016 Jetta 1.4L turbo gasser yesterday. I was surprised at what great power and mileage it gets. 40mpg on the highway and with the difference in price of RUG and diesel, and the difference in maintenance cost between the TDi and gasser, it is a viable option. Also, the 2016 Jetta has a lot of room compared to my 2009, and things like backup camera and U connect touchscreen, it is looking like a pretty good possibility. I will likely drive my TDi from 76,000 miles to 79,999 miles and then say bye, bye. I was just so surprised at the power out of the small gas turbo. It felt strong and almost like the TDi. 2016 Jetta is pretty nice.
 

Redgrom

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Joined
Feb 8, 2016
Location
San Clemente
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2012 jsw
I am ready to enjoy the final months of my JSW's life. Let this be a reminder to us all...that life is short and can be taken away from us at any moment. Live life to its fullest every hour and every day.

I plan to take my dog for long sloppy wet rides in her, I will now encourage my daughter to eat saltines in the back seat, I will smoke smelly cigars and leave the windows up, I will play pac-man with potholes, I will install political bumper stickers on each square inch of her exterior. I will then lay her to rest knowing that she lived....she lived the best life that could be offered to her. Farewell my JSW.....farewell. RIP

Ok so now I am almost going to miss my car after the buyback.... Really a fun car just has a few flaws... Like everyone.....
If I trusted the fuel pump to give me another 120k or the repair was reasonable I might have agreed with others here and thought about keeping her...
 

gmcjetpilot

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Location
Memphis TN
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2010 JSW TDI DSG Matalic Grey
This gives very little value to the $500.00 service cards. I am sure most people won't even change the oil in their cars if hey are returning them.
Depends on what you bought.
I'm surprised you would accept any buyback or compensation, you have been a big supporter of VW telling people VW owes them nothing as we have suffered no loss and we are all just whiners.
Well said I agree, you sarcastic devil. But if they throw money at me great, but I am driving my car another 5-10 years.
 

MichVW

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2013
Location
Michigan
TDI
2014 JSW DSG. 2011 Golf TDI 4DR 6MT
One unintended consequence of VW buying back all the TDI cars is that prices of used TDIs will quickly rise above what VW is willing to pay. If VW offers to pay the value of the car before the scandal plus $5000, that "floor" creates an immediate arbitrage opportunity for people to buy a car at auction then flip it to VW. Auction prices will therefore quickly rise to a value just below the VW "floor" and will exceed it for more desirable cars.

I believe that auction prices are the only reliable source of information on used car pricing. NADA and KBB publish prices for private party sale and retail price at a used car dealer at various percentages above those auction prices, and they will do so for TDIs just like they do for every other make and model. If insurance companies publish their own data for use by claims adjusters, that data will also have to reflect the premiums nice cars receive over the price VW is willing to pay.

If you have an unfixed low mileage or well maintained vehicle with popular options, you can offer it in a private party sale for more than VW will pay you. Assuming the demand for fun to drive cars with good mileage doesn't die, people will pay those prices for desirable cars.

And for the next two years, if your car is totaled by a lusty buck during rut season, an insurance settlement at FMV will exceed what VW would be paying you.

Auction prices will be much lower for vehicles that receive an emissions 'fix" because those vehicles are no longer eligible for the VW buyback offer. The interesting question is whether VW will fix high mileage/poor conditions cars and then poison the market by sending them back for sale at auction. Doing so would be very bad for TDI prices. Much better would be taking such vehicles out of US/Canada markets by crushing or exporting them to other countries. If the cars are exported without a fix, they will need a new VIN to prevent them from being reimported.

From a game theory point of view, I think the best strategy is to wait for VW to establish their buyback prices. But don't give your car to VW right away.

If you want to get rid of your vehicle and feel it is is desirable, get VW's buyback price and then offer it for private party sale. Anybody who wants it will need to pay you a 10 to 20% premium over the buyback price--and nobody else will be underselling you for a TDI. They buyer is protected by that same floor in case they experience expensive repairs, their circumstances change or they get in a crash. You have two years to make a deal, which should be plenty of time.

If you want to keep your vehicle and are willing to get it fixed, game theory says to wait as long as possible. Let people in CARB states be the guinea pigs and uncover problems with performance or reliability. The $5000 compensation for the fix will still be waiting for you--or you might decide to sell the car before the two year window closes.

This all considering that a buyback offer would be transferable via sale. I have a suspicion that VW will offer buybacks to owners that owned the vehicle at the time the scandal made headlines. Those trying to make a quick buck by flipping vehicles may find themselves in a bad situation. As others have mentioned, that was the intention of the goodwill package. To entice owners to report to dealerships with the title, registration, and drivers license so they could record the data mileage/ownershp for future use.

Also, insurance companies are bound by the policies they sell. I will assure you that no insurance company will pay additional monies to a TDI owner in the event of a total loss because of a manufacture fraud case. Most insurance companies do not use KBB, NADA or Edmunds to value vehicles. They use 3rd party companies that do market research on their behalf for a fee.

Some of your suggestions make sense, however, seems like the juice may not be worth the squeeze. I am not much of a gambler and have terrible luck most of the time.
 
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pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
any idea how long we can delay renewing plates on Ca. before we start getting tickets?
Good luck on that. I see CA plate vehicles here and there with expired tags, but I'm also hearing about a $#hitload of people who get popped for expired registration. Probably because CA is desperate for money (for reasons unknown).
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
...If you want to keep your vehicle and are willing to get it fixed, game theory says to wait as long as possible. Let people in CARB states be the guinea pigs and uncover problems with performance or reliability. The $5000 compensation for the fix will still be waiting for you--or you might decide to sell the car before the two year window closes.
It's almost even tempting to put back on my defective DPF and crap, get the fix + $5000, take that crap off again, and in the end, that $5K pays for removal/reinstall labor, a new TB and the CP3 pump. Then again, it is a hassle...
 

turborod

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Location
SoCal
TDI
09 TDI Sport Wagon
Originally Posted by turborod
Judge will rule in California tomorrow. Cough cough
This administration got a former FBI director.
Lawsuits by the EPA, DoJ... Etc
Now it's ( almost ) settled.
Oh, forgot it's an election year...
No trickle down here.... Haha
Already bought my BMW 328 d wagon, all wheel, m package, 8 speed dsg, Dakota red leather, twin turbo 2.0 diesel, double pano roof, Harmon Karmon, 19" wheels.....
Lease return w 17 k......
Haha



I really liked the Dakota red!!! Wife opted for black... Such a fun car to drive!!! I'd love to get one for myself. Only problem is I can't find a diesel wagon with the m package used.

Problem with the Sport M handling package is that I can't get a hitch for it now.

E.g. Tow my dual sport to the trail, jetski to the River...etc
 

gearheadgrrrl

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2002
Location
Buffalo Ridge (southwest Minnesota)
TDI
'15 Golf DSG, '13 JSW DSG surrendered to VW, '03 Golf 2 door manual
That's a risk... But not that big a one.

I get high deductables on the collision and comprehensive, and when the car depreciates to less than $10k in value, I drop the C&C completely. I can buy a new car cash if mine is totaled, the C&C coverage would just make the cash flow a little neater as I wouldn't have to sell a bunch of stocks in maybe a down market to buy a replacement car. The odds of my TDI getting totalled in the next two years are on the order of a couple percent, and I can live with that risk. That risk cost is much less than the cost of prematurely replacing my TDI without putting a lot more miles on it.

They'll establish a baseline from a set point in time (i.e. Just before the news broke in early September 2015), tack on $'x', and that will be it.

Keep in mind...they're targeting a 90% or so buyback rate...not 100%. They aren't going to attempt to base a compensation, fix, and buyback in the order of $10,000,000,000 based on what a few people do at auction between today and when the agreement is finalized.



And what happens when on month 23...after tacking on 50k miles...you get t-boned while driving to work? Your car gets towed to a body shop, appraised by your insurance company, and you get a check based on present value...which is jack $h1t. Seriously...anyone that intends to take them up on a buyback but thinks they're going to drive the car around for a year or more and THEN do it...you're rolling the dice. A lot can happen in a year.
 

gearheadgrrrl

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Been crunching the numbers on a buyback...

Strategy was to keep running the '13 TDI for 20 years and 200k miles, with an operating cost of around 28cents/mile. If as rumored the buyback is at retail value as of 9/15 plus $5k, my depreciation drops from around 12 cents/mile to near nothing. That means that until the buyback offer expires in a bit over 2 years, my car expenses would be pretty much insurance and license that I'm already paying, fuel, and repairs not covered by warranty. That means I'd be a fool not to run the wheels of the '13 TDI, do a four wheel drift into the VW dealer's lot on the last possible day, let them SCR it, and then buy it back from the dealer if the price was right.

On the other hand, the devil is in the details... If the buyback price is based on mileage and age at turn in and I can't put on a lot of miles in the next two years, the deal isn't so great. But best to wait and see- There is no economic incentive to race down to the VW dealer and abandon your TDI ASAP.
 

jhawklver

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2016
Location
Kansas City
TDI
2012 Jetta TDI
Strategy was to keep running the '13 TDI for 20 years and 200k miles, with an operating cost of around 28cents/mile. If as rumored the buyback is at retail value as of 9/15 plus $5k, my depreciation drops from around 12 cents/mile to near nothing. That means that until the buyback offer expires in a bit over 2 years, my car expenses would be pretty much insurance and license that I'm already paying, fuel, and repairs not covered by warranty. That means I'd be a fool not to run the wheels of the '13 TDI, do a four wheel drift into the VW dealer's lot on the last possible day, let them SCR it, and then buy it back from the dealer if the price was right.

On the other hand, the devil is in the details... If the buyback price is based on mileage and age at turn in and I can't put on a lot of miles in the next two years, the deal isn't so great. But best to wait and see- There is no economic incentive to race down to the VW dealer and abandon your TDI ASAP.
  1. We won't know for sure until official announcements.
  2. You don't have to run the numbers to know $5k plus FMV pre scandal is more than you'll ever get for the car. You drive for x years, get value plus $5k? You'll almost never go wrong from a value standpoint on your current car. The question is what car that puts you in and if you value it over the one you are in and your life situation.
  3. I've seen your math skills here and on your blog. You should seek counsel before you decide anything.
 
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Pseudonym

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Location
San Jose, CA
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2012 Jetta TDI Premium
Count me in for one who thinks if they keep a buyback offer open for 2 years, they'll tag it to a fixed rate of depreciation--why on earth would they keep the offer static?

Also, once 350,000 diesels disappear from the roads overnight, I bet you can expect a LOT of our local gas stations to pull the plug on offering diesel as an option.
 

bizzle

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Southern California
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2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
Also, once 350,000 diesels disappear from the roads overnight, I bet you can expect a LOT of our local gas stations to pull the plug on offering diesel as an option.
I've pumped diesel into my two VW's up/down, east/west of our state and all over Oregon (where it's illegal to pump one's own gas, but legal to pump diesel) and the odd looks, conversations, and arguments (in Oregon whether I could fuel my own vehicle) about my diesels lead me to believe I'm a rarity to the diesel customers (trucks) and station attendants alike.

Couple that with the long-standing advice to only fuel up at well-cycled stations and I don't think there's going to be a significant hit to a *lot* of stations.
 

jhawklver

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Location
Kansas City
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2012 Jetta TDI
Count me in for one who thinks if they keep a buyback offer open for 2 years, they'll tag it to a fixed rate of depreciation--why on earth would they keep the offer static?

Also, once 350,000 diesels disappear from the roads overnight, I bet you can expect a LOT of our local gas stations to pull the plug on offering diesel as an option.
Biggest reasons? It will take time for us to make decisions on next car. Dealer capacity to take them and sell new/used cars to us. VW takes the hit over time vs. all at once. Driver/consumer flexibility. Helps limit pressure on dealers, who are already at annoyance/litigation potential phase. Those who need out do so immediately, those who have time can find right car.

Would it be better to have a shorter time and absolute need to find a used car quickly? I'd rather have options and time to find a car vs. being under the gun.
 

kydsid

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Location
Texas
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2012 Passat
Also, once 350,000 diesels disappear from the roads overnight, I bet you can expect a LOT of our local gas stations to pull the plug on offering diesel as an option.

VW is an insignifcant boil on the buttocks of the US diesel market. Stations wont even notice
 

Pseudonym

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Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Location
San Jose, CA
TDI
2012 Jetta TDI Premium
Biggest reasons? It will take time for us to make decisions on next car. Dealer capacity to take them and sell new/used cars to us. VW takes the hit over time vs. all at once. Driver/consumer flexibility. Helps limit pressure on dealers, who are already at annoyance/litigation potential phase. Those who need out do so immediately, those who have time can find right car.
Would it be better to have a shorter time and absolute need to find a used car quickly? I'd rather have options and time to find a car vs. being under the gun.
Right, but the EPA wants these off the road ASAP. I don't think they would allow a scheme to exist that would basically encourage people to drive these as long as possible which is what an open 2 years does.
 

Pseudonym

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Location
San Jose, CA
TDI
2012 Jetta TDI Premium
VW is an insignifcant boil on the buttocks of the US diesel market. Stations wont even notice
Besides the fact that VW is basically the entirety of the us passenger car diesel market?

When I lived in Chicago, maybe 15-20% of stations had diesel. I would agree with you there.

In San Jose, I'd say 75% of stations have diesel here--I think you're kidding yourself if you think that a large number of them won't remove the diesel pumps.
 
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