Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[autdi]

Yup. Averaged out...it's about 1,000 per dealership. As someone threw out earlier...they'll have to contract out to someone (i.e. Carmax) to help take in cars.

Don't know why carmax would want piles of cars they can't do anything with but load on a hauler, gets lots of traffic, but lots will be picked over quick.

 

[msheidiann]

any idea how long we can delay renewing plates on Ca. before we start getting tickets?

Interested too...ours will be due in late July.

 

[csl223]

If even half the last decade's TDIs are bought back, VW could just trickle them back onto the market and thus prop the price up. It's the same trick the big banks did with their huge inventory of foreclosed homes during and after the recession.

Yup, I suspect that why the settlement gives us two years to pick a remedy... Where the hell are they going to park a few hundred thousand cars?

Someone else said "delusional", I'm thinking i agree...
Within 10 hours you propose vw stockpile all the cars in their boats and play the market and then say, in your vast wisdom, it is a problem for them to hold these cars... pick an opinion!

Or maybe stop calling people whiners and idiots for having different opinions and/or situations than you, or remember that none of us know anything... everything other than the fact that there will be buybacks and "generous compensation" is pure speculation.

I can't wait to see you backpedal again on this one

 

[tvmaster]

I already purchased my replacement vehicle on 3/29/16.
2016 Mazda CX-5 AWD fully loaded.
The Golf TDI sits in front of my house on the street unused until VW buys it back. I'm thinking of putting "storage" insurance on it but I would have to surrender my plates. If I do that, I have to park it in the garage and then I can't park my new car in the garage... damn you VW.

any more Mazda pluses/minuses you've discovered?

 

[jhawklver]

Don't know why carmax would want piles of cars they can't do anything with but load on a hauler, gets lots of traffic, but lots will be picked over quick.

Because they will have thousands of consumers who now need a car... and they happen to sell cars?

Not saying it would happen, but they have a great incentive to be the destination for some VW buybacks from owners.

 

[csl223]

As much as I would love to have another diesel, I am not willing to take a risk with all of the emissions garbage again. I would love a Cummins but wish the 2015 had a pre-2008 5.9 Cummins without all the crap hanging off the exhaust. I also cannot justify the added cost of a diesel for my use. Even the 1500 with the eco-diesel comes with a hefty price tag. Nice truck though.
2500... Yeah...Considering you can by one for almost as much as a 1500.. I want (don't need) a heavier truck. I like a 4x4 with a solid front axle and the 2500 (being 3/4 ton) comes with all HD components. Bigger brakes, shocks and the option for the gas guzzling 6.4 . Plus I would be able to tow/haul anything I wanted. I plan on keeping the truck for a long time.
In other news... I have decided I am garaging my 2011 Golf. Not going to risk having it totaled, having the DPF grenade, or timing belt blow apart.. Looking for a 5 year old ford focus to use for work. Just not worth the risk of driving my Golf around. As of today, it is worth more than any insurance company would give me as a settlement. Also worth more than even the best private party transaction. It has been fun... But I have to be financially smart. To the garage it goes...and stays..

I always agree with you mich , while I don't have the resources to park my beetle and get something else, I will probably be driving my old z3 more. Also, I ran the numbers in my budget last night and I will be getting a new car as soon as the buybacks are available (assuming they are generous)... the risk with current values isn't worth holding on for more use of the car to me.

 

[bubbagumpshrimp]

Don't know why carmax would want piles of cars they can't do anything with but load on a hauler, gets lots of traffic, but lots will be picked over quick.

Charge 'xxx'/car to take in, have it in the contract for VW to haul the cars away when the on-hand quantity hits 'x', and with a selection like they have (if you can ignore the price tags)...you should be able to sell some cars.

Of course that idea ignores the fact that if they run the buybacks anything like the "Goodwill" card registration...they'll want to micromanage every step of the process.

 

[mjLyco]

any more Mazda pluses/minuses you've discovered?

I feel that the car handles better after 2k miles. But that's probably because I'm used to it. I also think the speakers have broken in some. The Bose sounds better to me than it did initially... But again, probably just used to it.

It's a great car. I love taking racing lines down a winding road in a big SUV and getting 27mpg while doing it. Puts a smile on my face.

The i-active sense package was definitely worth it.

 

[nucklehead]

Interested too...ours will be due in late July.

You might be renewing those plates twice before the smoke clears and this little saga is all but over with. I think we'll know more by July - but not too much more. VW will dole out the bucks as slowly as they can get away with.

What is still totally unknown at this point is what the EPA and CARB were able to gouge (dare I say CON?) VW out of. And I'd still love to know the true particulars of NOx and its effects on health. I know it interacts with methane and tends to destroy it in the atmosphere. Makes one wonder if we all shouldn't be driving diesels to help tamp down the effects of AGW - a dubious scientific claim IMO. Predicting weather for two weeks out is tough on meteorologists - predicting two decades out is tenuous at best IMO.

Yes, I have a lot of opinions...

 

[GSwag]

Because they will have thousands of consumers who now need a car... and they happen to sell cars?
Not saying it would happen, but they have a great incentive to be the destination for some VW buybacks from owners.

If vw allows another company to profit and benefit off this fiasco, they are dumber than I thought. I would ensure every turn in came directly through a vw dealership and do my best to put in another vw. Win for the dealer too.

If I was dealer and got to see tdi drivers going to carfax, I'd be pissed.

Just my opinion obviously.

 

[autdi]

Interested too...ours will be due in late July.

Preliminary hearing on the settlement won't be until June, to disclose it, the settlement taking effect would be months later, you have to give a chance for folks to get out of the class, etc, all of which is months of postcards going out, letters describing the options available. I'd be shocked if the first buyback was before late fall. I get the judge is motivated, but process being what it is, this will be dragging for a long time.

 

[Mark Hubley]

I paid $22K even for my 2015 Jetta SE 6-speed just over a year ago. Add in taxes, title, etc. and it was $24K. I put $3,500 down and financed $20,500 at 0%. I now owe something between $16K and $17K. I just crossed the 23K miles mark.

MSRP on the car was $25,500. KBB says the car is worth $16K +/- a few hundred as a private party sale. Ouch! That's pretty serious depreciation for one year. Then again, 23K miles is a lot of miles for one year.

If the "fix" for my car is minimally damaging to performance (down a few MPG and down a few lb-ft of torque), and they offer anything close to $5K for me to get the fix, I'll take it and keep driving the car.

If the buyback offer gets me to a point where I can pay off my loan and have $5,000 left over to put down on a new car, then I would probably take that. That would mean a buyback at a generous KBB value plus $5K, or something over 80% of MSRP.

If I feel like I have been treated reasonably fairly by VW in a buyback situation, then I would give pretty serious consideration to a Jetta 1.8T Sport. If I had $5K to put down on that car, I would end up with a loan about where I am now, but in a new car. I would miss the diesel, but could live happily enough with that.

Otherwise, I'll take another look at the Mazda 6 or the Focus ST.

 

[jhawklver]

If vw allows another company to profit and benefit off this fiasco, they are dumber than I thought. I would ensure every turn in came directly through a vw dealership and do my best to put in another vw. Win for the dealer too.
If I was dealer and got to see tdi drivers going to carfax, I'd be pissed.
Just my opinion obviously.

I don't disagree. What we don't know is timetable and scope of what the dealers can handle. If VW allows a third party to do this, I imagine there would be some deal worked out.

I could see it like this. People who have interest in discounted VWs bring them to VW. People interested in other makes/models have a chance to go to a Carmax (who pays VW for being part of it and could also offer incentives).

The question I was responding to wasn't why would VW do this, it was why would Carmax do this.

 

[hfnut]

My Turn.....

Well, most everyone has had their say so i guess it's time for mine....
VW owes each of us CR TDI buyers full purchase price.... why do I say this?
1) VW knew full well what they were doing when the first 2009 CR TDI was sold.....and if you believe that garbage that they are trying to feed you about just finding out about it...well just wait until the criminal trials start and the blame-eee engineers start singing when the screws are being put to them...then the real truth will come out, it is already starting to.
2) It was not legal for VW to sell you the car that you bought in the first place....
3) So, the number of miles that you have driven your TDI after you purchased it is not material....the important issue here is WHEN WERE YOU DEFRAUDED?....
4) You were defrauded WHEN YOU BOUGHT THE CAR! Period, end of discussion...
5) This whole issue wasn't exactly a bright shining moment for the EPA either...I guess I should shut up! Heaven forbid that I should get banned for telling the truth
Sooooo am i griping here? Not really, i deserve what I get with this. Why? Because, my opinion is that if you bought this car after about say late 2010, the HPFP issues were fully known and for that reason alone you shouldn't have bought this car...oh well I digress....but from a legal standpoint, VW is playing games with us and screwing us big time on the buyback deal.

 

[MichVW]

I always agree with you mich , while I don't have the resources to park my beetle and get something else, I will probably be driving my old z3 more. Also, I ran the numbers in my budget last night and I will be getting a new car as soon as the buybacks are available (assuming they are generous)... the risk with current values isn't worth holding on for more use of the car to me.

Thanks! Yeah.. as much as I hate doing it. I am going to look at a 2009 Ford Focus SE tomorrow. Manual trans, power windows, locks and mirrors and that is about it.. Old lady's car.... 26,000 on the clock and never seen snow because the lady was afraid to drive in it! lol. Garage stored... Price is very good. Being an insurance appraiser, I can look at a vehicle and tell if has ever been in an accident. I have a good eye! I will use it as my work vehicle. It will be a big step down from the Golf, but I just cant swallow the financial risk of driving the Golf.

The 2011 Golf will be parked in the garage with storage insurance (comp) until this mess is over. My wife will still drive her 2014 JSW in the meantime. Being a newer vehicle it would take a pretty significant accident to total the JSW. Also, it is still under warranty so no worries about high dollar catastrophic failures.

Gotta do, what I gotta do...

 

[ntwrkd]

I paid $23K even for my 2015 Jetta SE 6-speed just over a year ago. Add in taxes, title, etc. and it was $25K. I put $4,500 down and financed $20,500 at 0%. I now owe something between $16K and $17K. I just crossed the 23K miles mark.
MSRP on the car was $25,500. KBB says the car is worth $16K +/- a few hundred as a private party sale. Ouch! That's pretty serious depreciation for one year. Then again, 23K miles is a lot of miles for one year.
If the "fix" for my car is minimally damaging to performance (down a few MPG and down a few lb-ft of torque), and they offer anything close to $5K for me to get the fix, I'll take it and keep driving the car.
If the buyback offer gets me to a point where I can pay off my loan and have $5,000 left over to put down on a new car, then I would probably take that. That would mean a buyback at a generous KBB value plus $5K, or something over 80% of MSRP.
If I feel like I have been treated reasonably fairly by VW in a buyback situation, then I would give pretty serious consideration to a Jetta 1.8T Sport. If I had $5K to put down on that car, I would end up with a loan about where I am now, but in a new car. I would miss the diesel, but could live happily enough with that.
Otherwise, I'll take another look at the Mazda 6 or the Focus ST.

You have the ea288 engine which (should) pass emissions with just the cheat removed. From what I have read, mileage and performance for this engine should not be impacted.

 

[cqk56]

Yup, I suspect that why the settlement gives us two years to pick a remedy... Where the hell are they going to park a few hundred thousand cars?

I'm surprised you would accept any buyback or compensation, you have been a big supporter of VW telling people VW owes them nothing as we have suffered no loss and we are all just whiners.

 

[RedBug]

I hope VW understands that the "buy back" can not be based on "trade in values", especially for newer vehicles. There is no way in heck that we will be made whole by giving us any kind of dealer trade in value plus some cash unless it is close to what we paid. Why should we be eating the depreciation on cars that were fraudulently sold to us?

Ok, back to munching on celery....

 

[bagmite]

Thinking about seeing my insurance agent to see if I can adjust the value of the value to an agreed amount which approximates the before scandal value. Should one have the misfortune of a total loss the policy would likely pay the current whatever book value that they use. Not optimistic but think it's worth a discussion.

 

[petsur]

Well, most everyone has had their say so i guess it's time for mine....
VW owes each of us CR TDI buyers full purchase price.... why do I say this?
1) VW knew full well what they were doing when the first 2009 CR TDI was sold.....and if you believe that garbage that they are trying to feed you about just finding out about it...well just wait until the criminal trials start and the blame-eee engineers start singing when the screws are being put to them...then the real truth will come out, it is already starting to.
2) It was not legal for VW to sell you the car that you bought in the first place....
3) So, the number of miles that you have driven your TDI after you purchased it is not material....the important issue here is WHEN WERE YOU DEFRAUDED?....
4) You were defrauded WHEN YOU BOUGHT THE CAR! Period, end of discussion...
5) This whole issue wasn't exactly a bright shining moment for the EPA either...I guess I should shut up! Heaven forbid that I should get banned for telling the truth
Sooooo am i griping here? Not really, i deserve what I get with this. Why? Because, my opinion is that if you bought this car after about say late 2010, the HPFP issues were fully known and for that reason alone you shouldn't have bought this car...oh well I digress....but from a legal standpoint, VW is playing games with us and screwing us big time on the buyback deal.

I agree. Purchase price or court.

 

[MichVW]

Thinking about seeing my insurance agent to see if I can adjust the value of the value to an agreed amount which approximates the before scandal value. Should one have the misfortune of a total loss the policy would likely pay the current whatever book value that they use. Not optimistic but think it's worth a discussion.

You could give it a try, but to my knowledge, most carriers do not offer "stated Value" insurance policies for passenger vehicles. Some may offer an endorsement but it will likely cost you additional $$$ for the extra coverage. Give it a shot. Good way to protect yourself. Let us know what they say.

 

[ntwrkd]

Ea288

Anyone want to discuss the EA288 and where they think it stands in all this banter? Seems to me it was designed to meet the standards as it is the only engine in the group engineered/designed with SCR (DEF). The 2012-2014 Passat had SCR added but it was the EA189. Totally different engine. My thought and hopes (I have a 2015 Jetta TDi) is that the 288 shouldn't suffer if the cheat is removed.
Go......

 

[cqk56]

Well, most everyone has had their say so i guess it's time for mine....
VW owes each of us CR TDI buyers full purchase price.... why do I say this?
1) VW knew full well what they were doing when the first 2009 CR TDI was sold.....and if you believe that garbage that they are trying to feed you about just finding out about it...well just wait until the criminal trials start and the blame-eee engineers start singing when the screws are being put to them...then the real truth will come out, it is already starting to.
2) It was not legal for VW to sell you the car that you bought in the first place....
3) So, the number of miles that you have driven your TDI after you purchased it is not material....the important issue here is WHEN WERE YOU DEFRAUDED?....
4) You were defrauded WHEN YOU BOUGHT THE CAR! Period, end of discussion...
5) This whole issue wasn't exactly a bright shining moment for the EPA either...I guess I should shut up! Heaven forbid that I should get banned for telling the truth
Sooooo am i griping here? Not really, i deserve what I get with this. Why? Because, my opinion is that if you bought this car after about say late 2010, the HPFP issues were fully known and for that reason alone you shouldn't have bought this car...oh well I digress....but from a legal standpoint, VW is playing games with us and screwing us big time on the buyback deal.

While I agree with you, I will wait and see what the real offer is. If its a straight buyback at just pre-scandal market value, not a chance in hell. I hope its not just 2 options: buyback pre-scandal or fix plus cash, I hope for a 3rd option of keep as is plus compensation. Not interested in any "fix".

 

[byundt]

Used TDI prices will soon exceed VW's buyback price

One unintended consequence of VW buying back all the TDI cars is that prices of used TDIs will quickly rise above what VW is willing to pay. If VW offers to pay the value of the car before the scandal plus $5000, that "floor" creates an immediate arbitrage opportunity for people to buy a car at auction then flip it to VW. Auction prices will therefore quickly rise to a value just below the VW "floor" and will exceed it for more desirable cars.

I believe that auction prices are the only reliable source of information on used car pricing. NADA and KBB publish prices for private party sale and retail price at a used car dealer at various percentages above those auction prices, and they will do so for TDIs just like they do for every other make and model. If insurance companies publish their own data for use by claims adjusters, that data will also have to reflect the premiums nice cars receive over the price VW is willing to pay.

If you have an unfixed low mileage or well maintained vehicle with popular options, you can offer it in a private party sale for more than VW will pay you. Assuming the demand for fun to drive cars with good mileage doesn't die, people will pay those prices for desirable cars.

And for the next two years, if your car is totaled by a lusty buck during rut season, an insurance settlement at FMV will exceed what VW would be paying you.

Auction prices will be much lower for vehicles that receive an emissions 'fix" because those vehicles are no longer eligible for the VW buyback offer. The interesting question is whether VW will fix high mileage/poor conditions cars and then poison the market by sending them back for sale at auction. Doing so would be very bad for TDI prices. Much better would be taking such vehicles out of US/Canada markets by crushing or exporting them to other countries. If the cars are exported without a fix, they will need a new VIN to prevent them from being reimported.

From a game theory point of view, I think the best strategy is to wait for VW to establish their buyback prices. But don't give your car to VW right away.

If you want to get rid of your vehicle and feel it is is desirable, get VW's buyback price and then offer it for private party sale. Anybody who wants it will need to pay you a 10 to 20% premium over the buyback price--and nobody else will be underselling you for a TDI. They buyer is protected by that same floor in case they experience expensive repairs, their circumstances change or they get in a crash. You have two years to make a deal, which should be plenty of time.

If you want to keep your vehicle and are willing to get it fixed, game theory says to wait as long as possible. Let people in CARB states be the guinea pigs and uncover problems with performance or reliability. The $5000 compensation for the fix will still be waiting for you--or you might decide to sell the car before the two year window closes.

 

[bubbagumpshrimp]

If vw allows another company to profit and benefit off this fiasco, they are dumber than I thought. I would ensure every turn in came directly through a vw dealership and do my best to put in another vw. Win for the dealer too.

If I was dealer and got to see tdi drivers going to carfax, I'd be pissed.
Just my opinion obviously.

The flip side to that is that it's really going to suck for the dealerships when they have to start taking these cars in.

For a couple years...I worked at a good sized hardware store chain that went bankrupt & out of business. I have first hand experience seeing a business that seemed relatively solid just implode in short order. To go from the "rich times" and not having an issue getting stock...to getting orders declined because (as I found out later)...the company lost the credit to front them. I had loyal customers that just eventually had to throw in the towel and go elsewhere because we just couldn't get $h1t in. Sound familiar (VW's $h1t vehicle lineup and product allocation)?

It's a $h1tty situation for everyone. I feel for the dealerships and the employees. As much as I've wanted out of my car for a long time...I'm not going to feel good about taking my car in whenever the time comes.

 

[bring]

You have the ea288 engine which (should) pass emissions with just the cheat removed. From what I have read, mileage and performance for this engine should not be impacted.

You read wrong

 

[ntwrkd]

You read wrong

Can you elaborate as I have yet to find definitive data that supports your claim. Do you have a link or some technical info? Would love to hear more about this. Thanks in advance.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

I'd prefer to keep my TDI...

I'm surprised you would accept any buyback or compensation, you have been a big supporter of VW telling people VW owes them nothing as we have suffer no loss and we are all just whiners.

But if VW offers me KBB dealer retail as of 9/15 plus $5k, it's gonna be like an all you can eat buffet of miles that closes in two years. I'd be highly tempted to take VW up on that offer, hang onto the TDI 'til the last possible day, and trade it on a new VW. Or maybe buy it back after they add the SCR system?

But my natural inclination is to run it into the ground, like usual... Still got the 2003 and 1986 VW diesels here.

 

[cqk56]

One unintended consequence of VW buying back all the TDI cars is that prices of used TDIs will quickly rise above what VW is willing to pay. If VW offers to pay the value of the car before the scandal plus $5000, that "floor" creates an immediate arbitrage opportunity for people to buy a car at auction then flip it to VW. Auction prices will therefore quickly rise to a value just below the VW "floor" and will exceed it for more desirable cars.

I believe that auction prices are the only reliable source of information on used car pricing. NADA and KBB publish prices for private party sale and retail price at a used car dealer at various percentages above those auction prices, and they will do so for TDIs just like they do for every other make and model. If insurance companies publish their own data for use by claims adjusters, that data will also have to reflect the premiums nice cars receive over the price VW is willing to pay.

If you have an unfixed low mileage or well maintained vehicle with popular options, you can offer it in a private party sale for more than VW will pay you. Assuming the demand for fun to drive cars with good mileage doesn't die, people will pay those prices for desirable cars.

And for the next two years, if your car is totaled by a lusty buck during rut season, an insurance settlement at FMV will exceed what VW would be paying you.

Auction prices will be much lower for vehicles that receive an emissions 'fix" because those vehicles are no longer eligible for the VW buyback offer. The interesting question is whether VW will fix high mileage/poor conditions cars and then poison the market by sending them back for sale at auction. Doing so would be very bad for TDI prices. Much better would be taking such vehicles out of US/Canada markets by crushing or exporting them to other countries. If the cars are exported without a fix, they will need a new VIN to prevent them from being reimported.

From a game theory point of view, I think the best strategy is to wait for VW to establish their buyback prices. But don't give your car to VW right away.

If you want to get rid of your vehicle and feel it is is desirable, get VW's buyback price and then offer it for private party sale. Anybody who wants it will need to pay you a 10 to 20% premium over the buyback price--and nobody else will be underselling you for a TDI. They buyer is protected by that same floor in case they experience expensive repairs, their circumstances change or they get in a crash. You have two years to make a deal, which should be plenty of time.

If you want to keep your vehicle and are willing to get it fixed, game theory says to wait as long as possible. Let people in CARB states be the guinea pigs and uncover problems with performance or reliability. The $5000 compensation for the fix will still be waiting for you--or you might decide to sell the car before the two year window closes.

Down the road I can see a good market for unfixed TDI's and probably modded ones too with DPF deletes, tune and CP3 fuel pump. I think they will be much more desirable than a "fixed" TDI so I will have no problem keeping mine if I don't like my options from VW.

 

[Mr.Staplehead]

troll

I guess you can't post comedy to lighten it up a ltitle. Did anyone consider what would happen if you had a Malone tune or a DPF delete? Would you be exempt from all of this?