Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[cqk56]

Sorry to disappoint you folks, but there's no Santa Claus and they'll be no mass buyout. There's about 10,000,000 affected cars and VW has about $100,000,000,000 more assets than liabilities. For the math impaired, that's about $10,000 per car... Nowhere near enough for a market price buyout, never mind paying off the regulatory agencies, etc.. So if $2 a gallon gas is giving you buyer's remorse and you're jonesin' for a new SUV, pay for it yourself like the rest of us instead of expecting a handout from VW!

And that's the terms for the U.S., other market's won't see such generosity from VW. Then consider that the "goodwill offer" is about to expire, and half the eligible owners haven't even claimed that free money. Then subtract from the potential 400k 2.0 liter cars the ones that have been totaled and the dummies that panicked and sold their's already, and the previous not even 50% compliance rate... We're talking about less than 200K cars claiming VW's $5k= Only a billion dollars. Add in less than a billion for SCR retrofits on the group one cars, and VW's still got plenty of liquidity left.

No MSRP, no treble damages, and some of ya are dumb enough to park these cars instead of drive them for zero depreciation...

Classic back-peddle.

 

[autdi]

I wonder what this does to the resale value of my '03 wagon.... not that it matters since it wont be for sale...

Those of you that have a wagon and a 5 speed would be wise to think very carefully what you are giving up if you sell back....

The thought has crossed my mind to look at getting a few ALH, and fix them up. MichVW can chime in how a complete restore works for insurance purposes, take the thing apart, and return it to better than new state, quiet the cabin down, sure the motor is the same old trusty ALH, but put in some of the creature comforts of the current generation.

My biggest concern in the plan are the bozos and bambi, and what insurance would cover.

 

[TCBinaflash]

I still think the 1 billion being cited is NOX fines to cover owners vehicles while still on the road during this process.

1 billion doesn't cover any other issue and certainly not compensatory. Lawyers would never let them skate off that easy.

 

[durundal]

Full transcript just posted: http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/crb/vwmdl

 

[gcodori]

Every time I hear gearhead spout out angrily...

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

No back pedal needed...

Classic back-peddle.

The $5k + pre-dieselgate value has not been confirmed. Heck, I'm gaming out what to do with my '13 TDI, and as of now don't have enough info to make any firm decisions. About the only solid info we have is that there will be a buyback option, which has always been there anyways- Drop your price enough, and a VW dealer or somebody will buy it back. For all we know, that $5k number may have been pulled outa someone's posterior, and the real buyback may be at NADA trade in as of september 2015, and that's it. And while a $5k + KBB retail as of 9/15 for my 24k at the time '13 JSW would give me almost as much as I paid for it before taxes, $5k plus NADA trade in a '09 Jetta sedan with 300k miles is gonna give the owner not much more than $5k, and nowhere near the MSRP some of the whiners here think they're getting.

 

[autdi]

Transcript is up now.

Highlights:
- Agreement on the 2L includes EPA/DOJ/FTC/CARB
- Multiple options to owners, will not have to decide until all details of each option are known, and have time to evaluate each option
- CAS includes a buyback, lease cancels, and cash
- NOx is a separate line, no details, but have a green car component
- 90k 3L are not part of this deal, but the court expects it to be worked on the same as the 2L agreement was worked on

 

[PFCoppinger]

I am surprised by the buybacks. I was wrong about that.

But I am not overjoyed by anything I have heard so far.

If it is FMV + $5000, then the $5000 covers the decline in value due from September 2015 until now (for all reasons) and leaves me with about $1000 in my pocket after the loan is paid. I eat the rapid depreciation during the first year of the car, which is a 2014.

Even if it is FMVSep2015+ $5000, that leaves me with a little more in my pocket, but I still eat the steep part of the depreciation curve.

The first year or two of steep depreciation are palatable only if one owns the car for long enough to smooth it out.

So it looks to me like anyone who is still on the steep part of the ordinary depreciation curve is going to get stuck eating that cost.

Which leaves little besides the forlorn hope that a palatable fix will be devised.

Boo.

 

[Borsig]

court docs read to me as if:

You must do SOMETHING (fix or buyback) to be compensated.

Fix + compensation
Buyback + compensation.

Green 'credits' are an issue that wont effect the consumer, and are a different color money.

Will be interesting for those of us who own 2015's to see how that plays out.

 

[autdi]

I am surprised by the buybacks. I was wrong about that.

But I am not overjoyed by anything I have heard so far.

If it is FMV + $5000, then the $5000 covers the decline in value due from September 2015 until now (for all reasons) and leaves me with about $1000 in my pocket after the loan is paid. I eat the rapid depreciation during the first year of the car, which is a 2014.

Even if it is FMVSep2015+ $5000, that leaves me with a little more in my pocket, but I still eat the steep part of the depreciation curve.

The first year or two of steep depreciation are palatable only if one owns the car for long enough to smooth it out.

So it looks to me like anyone who is still on the steep part of the ordinary depreciation curve is going to get stuck eating that cost.

Which leaves little besides the forlorn hope that a palatable fix will be devised.

Boo.

Which is why FMV doesn't cut it for late 2014-15 owners. Buying a car you expect to keep 10 years or more, so what about first year depreciation, after 3-4 it works out ok, but that first year is falling off a cliff.

 

[MichVW]

The thought has crossed my mind to look at getting a few ALH, and fix them up. MichVW can chime in how a complete restore works for insurance purposes, take the thing apart, and return it to better than new state, quiet the cabin down, sure the motor is the same old trusty ALH, but put in some of the creature comforts of the current generation.

My biggest concern in the plan are the bozos and bambi, and what insurance would cover.

My belief is that most insurance companies here in MI, unless specialized (Like Hagerty) do not offer "stated value" policies. In other words, even if you did restore a few ALH's (with clear titles) and insured them with a regular carrier, you would be only entitled to FMV if the vehicle was totaled regardless of the money you dumped into the car.

Now, If you wanted a stated value policy, look into a carrier that offers policies for classic cars. Likely, you would need to insure with a specialized carrier in order to recoup your money if you have a serious loss.

Hope that helps!

 

[Borsig]

Which is why FMV doesn't cut it for late 2014-15 owners. Buying a car you expect to keep 10 years or more, so what about first year depreciation, after 3-4 it works out ok, but that first year is falling off a cliff.

I think the laywers know this.

More aggregious, is how they KNEW this was coming down when they sold you your 2015, and didnt pull them. This all started in fall / winter 2014.

I get the (maybe its hopeful) feeling that those of us with 2015's that elect for buybacks, might be getting the high end of that compensation. After all, we were the ones that were shafted the most by this - all while VW was secretly under investigation by CARB and had already been caught.

 

[pkhoury]

PKhoury... Did the mods merge your "what car would you buy?" thread with this one? All this talk of staying on topic and we are not allowed to have a separate thread in the "general discussion forum" about cars we would consider.. Man.. tough crowd..

I think so, because I created it as a separate thread, but it disappeared, without so much of a PM. Figured it would make for an interesting topic, and yes, ironic that we're told to stay on topic.

 

[Torque17]

NPR and other have quoted Judge saying..........

While the deal's terms weren't discussed in the hearing, Senior District Judge Charles R. Breyer did say consumers deserve "substantial compensation." And the details that emerged bolster a report from Reuters earlier today, which said the owners of nearly 500,000 cars with 2.0-liter engines could receive an offer to buy back those Jettas, Beetles and other vehicles.

Does pre-scandal+$5,000 fit the definition of "substantial compensation"? I say no, not at all, especially the newer model years.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

Thanks for posting the transcript!

Been waiting to hear it from the horse's mouth instead of rumors, leaks, etc.. Interesting that VW has a short PR out, but nothing from EPA... Usually they'd be gloating about winning a case and teaching the evil polluter a lesson.

 

[autdi]

court docs read to me as if:

You must do SOMETHING (fix or buyback) to be compensated.

Fix + compensation
Buyback + compensation.

Green 'credits' are an issue that wont effect the consumer, and are a different color money.

Will be interesting for those of us who own 2015's to see how that plays out.

Re-reading it again, the fix is still questionable, there were a lot of ifs around that part.

Also to note, judge doesn't want to hear from us until the release of what the package deal is, then invites comments about it. Seems backwards, enough opting out of the class makes this fall apart. None of the trial balloons floated by CAS lawyers to date are interesting to me.

 

[TDIintheLOU]

If even half the last decade's TDIs are bought back, VW could just trickle them back onto the market and thus prop the price up. It's the same trick the big banks did with their huge inventory of foreclosed homes during and after the recession.

Your dreaming if you think VW is going to stock pile the buyback TDI's, fix them maybe in a year or so, and then bring them back into the market. That is way to much money in taxes alone to tie up assets for a long period of time. not to mention a storage nightmare. Buybacks will be scrapped and VW will right the loss off.

 

[pkhoury]

Same person who said this.

wow.. You probably had to dig through a bunch of ridiculous comments to find that one. I do remember it though. Good on ya.. My "ridiculousness meter" pegs every time I see one of her posts..

You want a real laugh? Her "fleet" includes her mountain bikes and some sport wheelchairs. In additional to ROFL, now I can't take ANY of her posts with seriousness!

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

What we do know:

Sayeth the Judge:

"It is also my understanding that the agreement will give
consumers several options, including the option to have
Volkswagen buy back their vehicle; and, subject to governmental
approval after further testing, the option to have the
consumer's vehicle modified in accordance with the agreement;
and for those consumers who have leased their car, to cancel
the lease and return the car to Volkswagen."

I don't see "$5000" or "market value" anywhere in there.

 

[PFCoppinger]

People who leased are in worse shape. They managed to do little besides pay VW for the steep early depreciation. Your lease is cancelled! Yay.

Glad I didnt lease.

 

[autdi]

My belief is that most insurance companies here in MI, unless specialized (Like Hagerty) do not offer "stated value" policies. In other words, even if you did restore a few ALH's (with clear titles) and insured them with a regular carrier, you would be only entitled to FMV if the vehicle was totaled regardless of the money you dumped into the car.

Now, If you wanted a stated value policy, look into a carrier that offers policies for classic cars. Likely, you would need to insure with a specialized carrier in order to recoup your money if you have a serious loss.

Hope that helps!

Good to have someone that knows that side of the business contributing, thank you.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

You missed the horses...

You want a real laugh? Her "fleet" includes her mountain bikes and some sport wheelchairs. In additional to ROFL, now I can't take ANY of her posts with seriousness!

And tractors and the elusive 20 axle South Dakota road train.

 

[YukonLT]

Your dreaming if you think VW is going to stock pile the buyback TDI's, fix them maybe in a year or so, and then bring them back into the market. That is way to much money in taxes alone to tie up assets for a long period of time. not to mention a storage nightmare. Buybacks will be scrapped and VW will right the loss off.

Yup....

 

[2015vwgolfdiesel]

'Substantial' compensation

Details of the preliminary agreement were announced in a California court. US district court Judge Charles Breyer said the settlement would include a buyback offer for nearly 500,000 2.0-litre vehicles.
He did not give details of how much car owners would offered in compensation, but said the deal between Volkswagen, the US government and private lawyers would be "substantial"

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36103903

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

The banks were dumb enough to stockpile houses...

Your dreaming if you think VW is going to stock pile the buyback TDI's, fix them maybe in a year or so, and then bring them back into the market. That is way to much money in taxes alone to tie up assets for a long period of time. not to mention a storage nightmare. Buybacks will be scrapped and VW will right the loss off.

It's easier with cars, less space to store and easier to move. Heck, VW even has their own ships...

 

[velostuf]

Are you asking what is the mechanical difference? Or reliability and maintenance statistics?

Don't waste our bandwidth on his question please. If 2015VWgolfdiesel wants to learn about torque converter transmissions and direct shift gearboxes, he can do a google search, or find another topic on this forum. He just can't help himself- he has to get in his 10 posts per day... while saying absolutely nothing. He usually just asks himself a question out loud.

Mister 2015, you seem like a friendly guy, but before you hit "SUBMIT REPLY" please ask yourself whether what you are saying is actually adding anything to the value of this discussion.

 

[pkhoury]

Transcript is up now.

Highlights:
- Agreement on the 2L includes EPA/DOJ/FTC/CARB
- Multiple options to owners, will not have to decide until all details of each option are known, and have time to evaluate each option
- CAS includes a buyback, lease cancels, and cash
- NOx is a separate line, no details, but have a green car component
- 90k 3L are not part of this deal, but the court expects it to be worked on the same as the 2L agreement was worked on

Thanks for the abstract. I'm presuming the CAS would be all items bundled together, rather than buyback/lease cancellation and/or cash payout?

 

[MichVW]

The $5k + pre-dieselgate value has not been confirmed. Heck, I'm gaming out what to do with my '13 TDI, and as of now don't have enough info to make any firm decisions. About the only solid info we have is that there will be a buyback option, which has always been there anyways- Drop your price enough, and a VW dealer or somebody will buy it back. For all we know, that $5k number may have been pulled outa someone's posterior, and the real buyback may be at NADA trade in as of september 2015, and that's it. And while a $5k + KBB retail as of 9/15 for my 24k at the time '13 JSW would give me almost as much as I paid for it before taxes, $5k plus NADA trade in a '09 Jetta sedan with 300k miles is gonna give the owner not much more than $5k, and nowhere near the MSRP some of the whiners here think they're getting.

I believe you are delusional. Back pedal is an understatement. You first said that there would be "no mass buyback". Now you are crunching fictitious numbers and trying to force feed them to the forum members. Your 2013 was NOT worth 24k in September 2015. My 2014 JSW with 10,000 miles was not worth 24K in Sept 2015. Ever hear of something called depreciation???

You are trying really hard to be right... I get it.. You may just have to chalk this one up a a blow to the ole' ego and move on. You lose...good day....Ma'am

 

[Chris]

Don't waste our bandwidth on his question please. If 2015VWgolfdiesel wants to learn about torque converter transmissions and direct shift gearboxes, he can do a google search, or find another topic on this forum. He just can't help himself- he has to get in his 10 posts per day...

1,418 posts since 1/1/16.

 

[newyorktdi]

From the judge's mouth:
" It is also my understanding that the agreement will give consumers several options, including the option to have Volkswagen buy back their vehicle; and, subject to governmental approval after further testing, the option to have the consumer's vehicle modified in accordance with the agreement; and for those consumers who have leased their car, to cancel the lease and return the car to Volkswagen.




"