Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[r11]

worst outcome would be this proving that diesel can't be tamed to comply with EPA in US o A. In other words, diesel's inherent higher energy simply can't be extracted wo paying with higher emissions. or much much higher cost.

If VW can't do it, no one will even try. Mazda's Skyactive lo-compression diesel engine specifically looked to control NoX. And where is it ?

For us personally options range from bad to worse.

Rest assured they will make it so that simply driving your car within 100 miles of dealership will flash the ECU.

lil flag at inspections - "VW tdi must have this sticker to pass" etc. early adopters are now 2 years away from inspections.

Driving with EGR wide open at all times will destroy what our engines love the most - which is to run hot. Torque will be gone. Soot will kill the DPF.

Spraying urea at 2x the normal rate is probably the least expensive way to go. but I am not sure SCR can deal with required NoX reduction, no matter the amt of urea that goes in.

 

[rhyx]

http://youtu.be/dKef1JFpiCA

Too true....too true...

 

[Borsig]

Oh I will keep driving my 2015, but I probably won't take it in for the free 10,k oil change, and they will NOT apply any changes to my car that reduce economy or power.

I will also not be purchasing an extended warranty now.

I will keep my 2015 away from the dealer, unless its proven that any recall will not effect my mpg, not even 1mpg.

I had "pre ban" guns, during the ban, and I will keep my "pre ban" or pre government interference tdi too.

Will ..... Not...... Comply. ..

 

[learningneverends]

Oh I will keep driving my 2015, but I probably won't take it in for the free 10,k oil change, and they will NOT apply any changes to my car that reduce economy or power.

I will also not be purchasing an extended warranty now.

I will keep my 2015 away from the dealer, unless its proven that any recall will not effect my mpg, not even 1mpg.

I had "pre ban" guns, during the ban, and I will keep my "pre ban" or pre government interference tdi too.

Will ..... Not...... Comply. ..

I hear you especially on the gun ban. But... normally taking my TDI in for oil change, tire rotation etc. is about $400 so I don't think I could skip the 'free' one. I only had one done after the free one and the sticker shock sent me to this forum/doing the work myself.

 

[anotherTDI]

........me thinks my TDI just went up in value.

It will not be going back to the dealer to be detuned. lol

 

[Borsig]

I do mine myself. An oil change kit is about $50.
How much $ will you lose in 5-7mpg reduction over the next 100k miles?

Is that meddling of the epa in your optimally tuned tdi worth 50$? Not to me it isnt.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

can u expand on ignition timing in diesel engines ?

Sure. Let's call it injection timing instead. Does that help?

 

[flip7]

My thinking on EPA vs VW

In Europe, VW and Audi sells over 60% TDIs (kind of fact)

There Euro emission regulations if more permissible than EPA, I do not think they are 4000% more loose for NoX

If the finding of 40X more NoX than limit is true, then Euro's EPA equivalent may put VW Europe in bigger trouble than EPA in US.

BTW - in Europe states emissions are tested via tailpipe, as far as I know.
If NoX was much higher than allowed, I think VW would have had a problem for a long time in Europe.

Dunnow what to say, but I won't jump head first in the ECU re-flash recall

 

[r11]

can u control the ignition in diesels with much accuracy, compared to good olé sparks in gasoline engines ?

the ignition happens within narrow range of pressures - by which time u have to have a nice fuel-air mix ready to go. Now, after you are sure you are lit, you can do post-squirts with piezos

 

[mittzlepick]

this is why no 4 wd diesels?

 

[Drivbiwire]

My 2013 Beetle convertible has no SCR. The 2014 and 2015 model years both use an SCR. I was under the impression (apparently incorrectly) that the SCR was there to reduce these emissions. It seems that isn't the case. What DOES reduce NOx?

NOx is monitored 100% of the time at the catalyst, so there is NO WAY any TDI is out of compliance.

SCR (AdBlue Injector) is NOT activated 100% of the time, ONLY when the NOx sensor detects NOx output that is rising due to the EGR, Injection timing, and other systems not being able to reduce them in the combustion bowl.

VW Did not lie to the EPA, and this "Lie" is being taken out of context to further an EPA/CARB objective.

FWIW, you can monitor your NOx output while driving with VCDS in real time, and this range is almost always 0 regardless of load.

Pre-SCR systems use a filter that traps and oxidizes the NOx output. When the system detects rising levels it initiates a re-gen where fuel is injected post ignition to elevate NOx trap temperatures above the regen threshold.

Like I said, this is a Blackmail on the part of the EPA, VW will issue a recall, which will effectively do nothing to the car or how it performs. The software change will simply eliminate the "TEST" cycle so it cannot be interpreted to be thwarting emissions.

Its laughable to think some VWOA clown knows anything about a TDI, hell they can't even tell you how a TDI works much less how the software functions!

Do the voluntary recall, and get those 2016's rolling thru port... Moving on nothing else to see here.

 

[Drivbiwire]

this is why no 4 wd diesels?

Demand = Interpretation of Marketing.

All Wheel Drive would result in increased load on the motor thus naturally REDUCING NOx output (yes I said REDUCE IT) due to higher average load on the motor reducing the fuel air ratio closer to Stoichiometric.

A diesel all-wheel drive vehicle also would eat into premium priced higher "Margin" cars, diesels being lower margin due to slightly higher production costs. Car makers want to sell the most number of high margin cars, and sell others that are in demand by the market.

All Wheel drive TDI's take a fuel economy penalty, look at all the people that balk at an automatic due to fuel economy, imagine telling them they are going to pay a 6-8 mpg hit for all-wheel drive, they'd opt for the two wheel drive.

Also an all-wheel drive will add cost to the car, approx $2-3K, lower lifetime efficiency, coupled to a DSG...

 

[Drivbiwire]

can u control the ignition in diesels with much accuracy, compared to good olé sparks in gasoline engines ?

the ignition happens within narrow range of pressures - by which time u have to have a nice fuel-air mix ready to go. Now, after you are sure you are lit, you can do post-squirts with piezos

Up to 7 precisely ignition/injection events (with different quantities of fuel) PER COMBUSTION STROKE, PER CYLINDER... OR 28 precisely controlled Combustion events with every 2 rotations of the crank on a TDI (conditions permitting) and all within 5/1000's of a second.

Keep in mind a gasser only has 1 for every combustion stroke on ANY gasoline engine...

 

[iamatt]

I wonder how this will effect my straight pipe, egr/dpf delete?

Sent from my XT1094 using Tapatalk

Already had someone flip me off driving home from work today

 

[chimaera]

In Europe, VW and Audi sells over 60% TDIs (kind of fact)

There Euro emission regulations if more permissible than EPA, I do not think they are 4000% more loose for NoX

If the finding of 40X more NoX than limit is true, then Euro's EPA equivalent may put VW Europe in bigger trouble than EPA in US.

BTW - in Europe states emissions are tested via tailpipe, as far as I know.
If NoX was much higher than allowed, I think VW would have had a problem for a long time in Europe.

Dunnow what to say, but I won't jump head first in the ECU re-flash recall

Individual nations have their own requirements for emissions testing, done as part of a roadworthiness test. Here in Ireland, the only test for emissions on diesels is a smoke opacity test. Petrol cars are tested for HC and CO.

However, it's important not to confuse annual roadworthiness testing with regulatory approval testing done as part of the type approval process. It's the latter that VW have been caught out on here.

The 40x NOx problem may not exist in Europe if the other parts of the European spec allow them to run the engine in such a way that NOx can be lowered.

 

[Oberkanone]

No recall order yet

[QUOTE
Janet McCabe, acting assistant administrator for the EPA’s Office of Air & Radiation, said that the agency will “hold VW responsible” for recalling the affected vehicles to reduce the excess emissions, but said no recall order was issued as part of today’s announcement.
The affected vehicles are:
• 2009-15 model year VW Jetta, Beetle, Golf and Audi A3
• 2014-15 model year VW Passat][/QUOTE]

No recall order yet.

 

[chimaera]

can u control the ignition in diesels with much accuracy, compared to good olé sparks in gasoline engines ?

the ignition happens within narrow range of pressures - by which time u have to have a nice fuel-air mix ready to go. Now, after you are sure you are lit, you can do post-squirts with piezos

Yes, you can control it very accurately. It's normal for common rail engines to run several injection events per combustion event depending on load and rpm. Typically a small pilot injection to light it up before the main injection(s).

 

[rotarykid]

I mentioned in a PM that I am curious to see how deep this rabbit hole goes. However, at this point we have one-side of the story. Therefore, and although I am very concerned what this will do to the future of these awesome vehicles, I am anxious to hear details from VW, and will withhold judgement until then.

above is the best way to look at this until is has worked it's way through the response and appeals process.......

I know it has been mentioned, but as of right now I am betting the recent ECU update was VWAG's attempt to prevent today from happening......And on the cars which have already gotten the ECU update, that might be all the action required in the end to put this to bed.....

And on the drivers driving around something plugged into the OBD port, it's very likely that this line of code is the reason you are seeing lower than average mpgs. I would say unplug your OBD device and see if mpgs go up, you will have the answer......

 

[r11]

yep, I feel same way .

No way VW did anything of sorts that EPA says it had.

VW has totally botched the optics here... class action "100m of asthma sufferers in USA vs VW of Germany" is coming in 3...2...1

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Official: Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs triggers massiv...

Compliance for the computer is whatever you program it to be - in this case, there is a compliant program and a noncompliant program. The emissions can be compliant for the computer and you won't get any check engine lights or errors, while grossly exceeding regulations. VW programmed it to be out of compliance during the normal drive cycle, presumably to improve drivability, increase economy, and extend longevity.

It's fraud on VW's part, not blackmail on the EPA's.

 

[atc98002]

Many commenters here (and elsewhere) are overlooking two things.

1. This was only for EPA and CARB certification, not the annual inspections done at the state level.
2. Since they passed EPA and CARB with the system fully operational, all they have to do is remove the switch that turns it off so everything works.

EPA ratings remain the same. A simple software update "fixes" the problem. Yes, our real world mileage may be reduced a little. VW should have never done this, if in fact we have heard the entire truth. Personally, I'm not fully convinced of the entire thing.

 

[Random_Vibration]

Wow that was fast, Liberals and Obama blamed within 5 pages....

Its unfortunate when people jump to conclusions. The current diesel emissions tiers were set up long before 2009. Current EPA Limits were set for effectivity in 2007(along with ULSD), 2010 and 2013. Each time they got automatically more stringent. Automaker and car manufacturers were given several years to get ready for the first and subsequent stairsteps increasing of emissions standards and two presidents before the current one could've suspended this regulation.

Any limits set in 2009 would take effect somewhere around 2017-2020.

I hope this isn't considered political. I tried to clear the air of misconceptions and no blame is assigned. Both US main stream parties had opportunities controling the executive branch and congress to roll the standard back but neither did so.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

WOW!
I can not believe this, in every sense and way! I would not
be surprised if this was the end of VW diesels in USA market.
It seems very draconian, the specs and recall and recall what?
If it's a new ECU flash, guessing it kills efficiency & performance.
Did they see this coming with recent ECU campaign?

I don't know how they will force compliance in my State, but
places like California they'll get medieval, deny registration.
The only workaround is after they ruin the ECU you re-tune it.
Of course that cost money. I doubt all the VW TDI's in the
country, world makes a hill of beans in pollutants to all sources.

This will boost the aftermarket tuner business.

 

[mountain-valleymotors]

The vehicles in the WVU test were two VW TDI's and one BMW - one Jetta without SCR and one Passat with SCR and one BMW X5 Diesel. The only vehicle that didn't meet the EPA standard during real world driving was the Jetta without SCR. The Passat with SCR met the EPA standard most of the time during highway driving. The BMW met the EPA standard almost all of the time under nearly every driving environment.

The Jetta without SCR is the only one that exceeded the limits by 10-35 times during certain driving conditions. The Passat was much less than that.

The reason I bring all this up is that the spread between real world FE and EPA fuel economy is actually much larger on the Passat than the Jetta. It would seem that a reflash of the Passat to test specs probably won't have much of a negative effect on emissions and still wouldn't explain the fuel mileage rating discrepancy but the reflash of the non-SCR equipped vehicles might.

 

[mountain-valleymotors]

By the way, I look for this to increase the value of used TDI's in the US market.

 

[dst5]

Demand = Interpretation of Marketing.
All Wheel Drive would result in increased load on the motor thus naturally REDUCING NOx output (yes I said REDUCE IT) due to higher average load on the motor reducing the fuel air ratio closer to Stoichiometric.
A diesel all-wheel drive vehicle also would eat into premium priced higher "Margin" cars, diesels being lower margin due to slightly higher production costs. Car makers want to sell the most number of high margin cars, and sell others that are in demand by the market.


All Wheel drive TDI's take a fuel economy penalty, look at all the people that balk at an automatic due to fuel economy, imagine telling them they are going to pay a 6-8 mpg hit for all-wheel drive, they'd opt for the two wheel drive.
Also an all-wheel drive will add cost to the car, approx $2-3K, lower lifetime efficiency, coupled to a DSG...

Looking at what you do you have a financial incentive for VW and diesels to come out smelling like a rose. Good luck to you with that.

 

[meerschm]

Not sure where the NOX sensor is on the CBEA and CJAA.

the injection of extra fuel, and elevated temperature to reduce the NOX back to N2 is controlled by the ECU, which maintains a model of soot and nox generation. temperature and lambda (oxygen) sensors are referenced,

it sounds like VW modified this model when it was in the test cycle, and differently for normal use. this is the violation. the existence of the software to detect the test cycle, and the "switch" to use a different model or model configuration, which increased NOX emissions

what specific change was done on the 2015 ea288 with SCR (and why) is a good question.

 

[13jsw]

As a member of the Engineering community I am embarrassed by this. The Engineers certainly had to design this software and one would think it raised ethical questions. Are the Emissions rules more relaxed in Europe? How did these people justify the cheating in their mind so that they felt ok with it?
for other things related to the Earth the Europeans seem to be relatively progressive. My point is that I just wonder what was on the minds of the Engineers that put this system in place.

I don't believe this.... Sounds like a good old government shakedown to me, 1st red flag.... Obama administration..... 2nd red flag.....EPA
More along the lines of what they did to Gibson guitars

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...-gibson-guitar-for-breaking-indian-law-video/

I give VW the benefit of doubt here, I doubt they programmed cars to cheat as stated its more likely just the way the car is meant to run but VW like Gibson is facing a trashing of their reputation from the EPA that has unlimited resources

How many scams have we seen against car companies? How about the exploding pinto I have yet to see proof that pintos were more likely to catch fire than any other compact at the time, plus the number of pintos that caught fire in rear collisions were a very small number

How about the exploding Chevy pickups from being hit in the side NBC news had to formally apologize on air for
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KtpMzGN9uWc

I believe VW probably did nothing wrong here

 

[minis2003]

Correct me if I am wrong, I thought I read somewhere that the automakers stated that they would not be able to meet the more restrictive EPA emissions.
If they keeper the future timelime

 

[tsingtao]

T
Before everyone goes and badmouths VW and throws them under the bus, I think it's smart to look at both sides first .

The only side I am lookiing at is my resale value side. That's the only thing I need be concerned about.

If there are huge EPA fines and class action suits by owners that is VW's problem. They can tell their side to the judge.

Personally, I will drive my 2009 until the wheels fall of, will not take it to the dealer for any reason (unless one of the extended warranties, such as the HPFP is needed) after the recall is issued. Or unless the State of Arizona requires the recall for registration.

After that, as much as I like the car, no more VWs, diesel or gas for me.