Volkswagen not yet planning to support higher biodiesel concentrations

[buckeye96]

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/09/22/volkswagen-not-yet-planning-to-support-higher-biodiesel-concentr/

Volkswagen not yet planning to support higher biodiesel concentrations

Back in 2007, when Volkswagen was kicking off its Dieselution tour, we asked VW of America CEO Stefan Jacoby about official support for biodiesel concentrations higher than five percent. At the time there was no national standard for B20 biodiesel blends and Volkswagen would not provide warranty coverage for engines that used higher concentrations. However, Jacoby indicated that once a fuel standard was in place, the company would revisit the issue. Last June, a B20 standard was finalized, and it goes into effect in October. During the Jetta TDI drive last week, ABG asked about B20 use in the new car and VW communications director Steve Keyes responded that VW was not yet prepared to support B20 use. The new standard is primarily targeted at commercial fuels and supported fuels are still not widely available. There are concerns that the higher bio concentrations will result in excessive ash build-up in the particulate filter and other issues. Mercedes gave ABG a similar response in June when we drove the BlueTec diesel SUVs. Both companies will continue monitoring the fuel situation and the situation may change in the future.

Apparently, this hasn't stopped the proprietor of DieselGreen fuels in Austin TX. Jason Burroughs has just bought a brand new 2009 Jetta that he is running on B100. Burroughs is documenting his experience with the pure biofuel manufactured by New Energy Fuels of Houston on the TDIClub Forums. So far he hasn't had any issues, but plans to regularly test the condition of the engine oil and post updates on his progress. For those planning to buy a new Jetta or any other diesel vehicle, we don't recommend following this path while your vehicle is still under warranty. If you get some bad fuel, you could be out many thousands of dollars. However, if you are doing this let us know how things are progressing, because biodiesel has a great deal of potential.

 

[BKmetz]

The big BIG problem we have with this article is that it reads as if TDIClub supports this venture. TDIClub does not. Mr. Burroughs is simply posting his progress on TDIClub's forums. TDIClub's official position is the Alternative Diesel Fuels forum disclaimer. Just to make it clear to any autobloggeen.com readers who would come to TDIClub after reading that article.

CAUTION: Volkswagen does not approve the use of more than 5% biodiesel on TDI vehicles sold in North America, and does not approve the use of straight vegetable oil (SVO) or waste vegetable oil (WVO) at all. Use of unapproved fuels is considered "misfueling". If there is a fuel system related failure, and misfueling is found to be involved, any damage may not be covered under warranty.

If you wish to use such fuels on an "I am my own warranty" basis, you should be made aware of the risks involved. The process of making biodiesel inherently involves alcohol, water, glycerin, lye, and byproducts. Even tiny amounts of contamination can result in severe damage to the high-pressure fuel injection components. Biodiesel must conform to ASTM standards. "Home-brewers" generally have no practical way to check whether their biodiesel conforms to standards.

Vegetable oil that has not been chemically transformed into biodiesel generally has a viscosity which is much higher than the fuel injection system is designed for, which puts more stress on the system. This is of particular importance on "common-rail" or "pumpe duse" fuel injection systems (i.e. all 2004 and later North American models), and the conventional wisdom is that vegetable oil is not to be used in these engines. People wishing to install "kits" to fuel their vehicle with vegetable oil are strongly urged to take into account whether a particular "kit" is tailored specifically for their particular vehicle and engine, whether the kit manufacturer offers a warranty on only the kit or on the complete converted engine, and whether the kit has any type of independent third-party approvals. Absence of a "kit" for a particular engine should be interpreted as that engine being unsuitable for operation on vegetable oil.

This disclaimer is not meant to incite panic, nor to steer people away from Biodiesel/WVO/SVO. It's intended to educate, and to warn. Enjoy using alternative fuels and feel free to use Biodiesel in amounts over 5% or WVO/SVO, but do so with the understanding that fuel related issues may not be covered under warranty should you have a problem. TDIClub Biodiesel FAQ page:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=82466


Also remember that what you are reading here on the Internet may not always be correct Some people have ideas and suggestions which may or may not be accurate. Please use your own judgment when taking the advice of others​

​

To TDIClub this is just another member using biodiesel.

 

[ikendu]

The big BIG problem we have with this article is that it reads as if TDIClub supports this venture. TDIClub does no.

You mean with this phrase "Burroughs is documenting his experience with the pure biofuel manufactured by New Energy Fuels of Houston on the TDIClub Forums."?

Mr. Burroughs is simply posting his progress on TDIClub's forums. TDIClub's official position is the Alternative Diesel Fuels forum disclaimer. Just to make it clear to any autobloggeen.com readers who would come to TDIClub after reading that article. To TDIClub this is just another member using biodiesel.

To me, the phrase from above is "simply posting his progress".

 

[BlueCTTDi]

Actually, i'd agree with bk on this one - and further, it doesn't harm anything to make that distinction clear.

 

[T'sTDI]

I agree with ikendu, all the sentence is saying to go to the TDIclub to see where he is documenting is progress. It's good publicity for the forums and good publicity for alternative fuels.

By the way, if you read the thread. There is good support for B100 in an 09. Everyone wants to see it succeed and what better place for support then the home of the TDI forums. I think the success has little to do with the club and more to do with the future of biofuels.

 

[BKmetz]

I understand what it says. I know most of the members here understand what it says. We have had long debates about using high ratios of biodiesel for well over a year now. This has been a hot topic ever since we saw the 2006 Jetta test mule with the 2009 engine and emissions system at the 2007 Montreal fest.

I'm not allowing any chance that readers over at the blog site that would come here to read the thread, and not knowing the history of the debates that we have had here concerning the use of high ratios of biodiesel in the 2009 models, to have some misimpression of acceptance or condoning of this practice. The last thing we need is someone to piggyback on TDIClub by claiming that his or her success in using high ratios of biodiesel in a 2009 "as seen on Fred's."

I respect Mr. Burroughs for stepping up to the plate and putting his money on the line this way, but it's still intentionally misfueling the car and he is now his own warranty. That concept must be reinforced every step of the way.

 

[markeckley@yahoo.com]

>>>I respect Mr. Burroughs for stepping up to the plate and putting his money on the line this way, but it's still intentionally misfueling the car and he is now his own warranty. That concept must be reinforced every step of the way.<<<
BKmetz, can you explain how you came up with the term misfueling?
VW recommends limiting concentration of biodiesel to 5%. They also recommend coming in for regular service.
If an owner skips 10k, 20k and 30k service visits, are they under their own warranty? Answer is no, they're under VW warranty even though they didn't follow the recommendation for service interval.

I believe Burroughs becomes his own warranty if and when the fuel causes a problem.
If his DPF fails 'cause it's a POS and cracks, Burroughs' warranty is still valid and VW needs to fix the cracked DPF under warranty.

It is simply not the case that misfueling voids the warranty. Ignoring a recommendation on fuel, in a logical way (using FAME fuel that is ASTM 6751 spec.), does not void a parts and workmanship warranty.

Your definition of misfueling has no legal basis. The definition appears misleading and unfair. It can lead mechanics and service managers to bully well meaning owners, just because their fuel doesn't smell terrible and toxic.
Please explain misfueling, and it's legal basis, better, if you can.
Thanks,
MARK

__________________

 

[lkchris]

What's misleading is your seemingly innocent confusion of the terms "recommend" and "specify."

VW specifies use of no more than 5% biodiesel which means it's not optional. It's a requirement, dear. Damage caused by use of > 5% biodiesel is NOT warranted.

It's as simple as that. No lawyers required to understand English.

PS: even Biodiesel magazine lists cautions for using greater percentages.
http://biodieselmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=2290&q=&page=all

 

[KDG]

If anyone comes to the TDIClub website and spends more than 30 seconds reading just Burroughs' thread, or almost any of the threads in the Alternative Fuels section, it will be transparent that TDIClub does not "endorse" biofuels. They'll see it's just another big happy wrangling family of car drivers with very different opinions, sometimes curmudgeonly, sometimes looking through rose-colored glasses, and everything in between.
Personally, I'm hoping the '09 can keep slurping up the biofuel without a hitch. It amazes me how many people sound angry at Burroughs for trying this, as if he were a damn fool and not investing in R&D for his business. But then lots of people who take risks or try new things are labeled fools. Some later get called innovators or heroes.
And if it ends up being a matter of the fuel screwing up the emissions system, well, yet another way to support the aftermarket industry. Some other smart soul will invent a workaround...or just bypass the offending emissions unit. Remember the days of gutting catalytic converters when they clogged up? Bad idea for air quality, and illegal, but people did it. The difference is, if the emissions system fails and is bypassed in the new Jetta to run biofuel, then the exhaust will still be cleaner than most other cars on the road. Or if it's the issue of contaminated oil from the afterburn, more frequent changes or new oil additives may cure the problem. I appreciate all the innovators out there.
Oops, by writing this did I just suggest that the TDIClub endorses removing emissions control systems? Gotta go, FBI's at the door.

 

[BKmetz]

BKmetz, can you explain how you came up with the term misfueling?
VW recommends limiting concentration of biodiesel to 5%. They also recommend coming in for regular service.
If an owner skips 10k, 20k and 30k service visits, are they under their own warranty? Answer is no, they're under VW warranty even though they didn't follow the recommendation for service interval.

I believe Burroughs becomes his own warranty if and when the fuel causes a problem. If his DPF fails 'cause it's a POS and cracks, Burroughs' warranty is still valid and VW needs to fix the cracked DPF under warranty.

It is simply not the case that misfueling voids the warranty. Ignoring a recommendation on fuel, in a logical way (using FAME fuel that is ASTM 6751 spec.), does not void a parts and workmanship warranty.

Your definition of misfueling has no legal basis. The definition appears misleading and unfair. It can lead mechanics and service managers to bully well meaning owners, just because their fuel doesn't smell terrible and toxic.

Please explain misfueling, and it's legal basis, better, if you can.
Thanks,
MARK

You have answered your own question with citing the 5% limit VW now imposes. I have explained myself with posting the disclaimer. I am reading your post as intentionally misinterpreting my words. The context of my post was in respect to the fuel system and catalyst system all along. All the debate about using high ratios of biodiesel in a 2009 has always been in respect to the fuel system and emission system. Where have you been?

Legal basis? Are you a lawyer? I doubt it because any lawyer could easily explain VW's position. Even if a dealership willfully and wrongfully declines warranty, the customer will bear the burden of forcing the dealership to honor it. The customer still loses, even when in the right.

Now to take misfueling to a new level for you; This also covers people who use jet fuel, off-road diesel, and heating oil. Off-road diesel and home heating oil are usually the exact same product as #2D. It's up to the bulk fuel supplier what he fills his tanks with. Technically there are different specifications for off-road diesel and heating oil Vs #2D. So for those people who choose to use off-road diesel and heating oil, they too are intentionally misfueling their cars even though it can be the exact same fuel as #2D.

You can be assured that any 2009 TDI models that come in for warranty work regarding the fuel and/or catalyst system, the dealership will take a fuel sample, maybe even an oil sample.

The bottom line here it is the owner's responsibility to buy the proper fuel for their vehicle. That’s why I posted the fuel disclaimer and my explanation of the term 'intentionally misfueling.' Either one has purchased fuel at a retail outlet or they have not. If the owner has not, then they have intentionally misfueled their car and are their own warranty.

 

[Krusshall]

Your fuel disclaimer should only cite VW's official position on alternative fuels, period. Everything else has no legal basis nor does it do anything to indemnify and hold harmless the TDIClub.

I mean why even host this forum if you are worried about the legal ramifications of a simple reference to the TDIClub that may or may not be construed as an endorsement of a non-authorized, not illegal, operation of a motor vehicle depending on how the reader interprets the writing?

 

[markeckley@yahoo.com]

BKmetz, thanks for the clarification.

I get the impression that people feel VW can do whatever they want. Tell you what kind of fuel to put in your car, for example. Where does that stop? Next it will be VW specifies BP fuel and if you use Shell, you're your own warranty. Doesn't that sound stupid? Almost exactly the same as VW's insistence that B6 renders your warranty useless... arbitrary and unsupported by evidence.

Even worse, it's an acceptance of bad treatment from the manufacturer. VW should try harder to open their minds to respecting their customers and ASTM standards.

Requiring an expensive procedure to drain a tank of ASTM spec fuel is highway robbery.

 

[thebigarniedog]

I get the impression that people feel VW can do whatever they want.

You have the absolute right to do whatever you want with the car (i.e. you can run it into a wall; you can drive it into a pond; you can take it Cliff diving etc). Have at it, VW won't care. VW will only care when you try to exercise contractual rights under your warranty to have them pay for a repair. It is a contract law thingy.

Tell you (i.e. they VW) what kind of fuel to put in your car, for example. Where does that stop? Next it will be VW specifies BP fuel and if you use Shell, you're your own warranty. Doesn't that sound stupid?

That would be the government that mandates the blend and content of your fuel, not VW. Forty plus blends of gasoline is stupid.

Almost exactly the same as VW's insistence that B6 renders your warranty useless... arbitrary and unsupported by evidence.

Buy a GM and use B6 and see what happens.

Even worse, it's an acceptance of bad treatment from the manufacturer. VW should try harder to open their minds to respecting their customers and ASTM standards.

They are in business to sell cars, not to hug you when your feeling down. That would also be the Government's role.

 

[markeckley@yahoo.com]

What's misleading is your seemingly innocent confusion of the terms "recommend" and "specify."
VW specifies use of no more than 5% biodiesel which means it's not optional. It's a requirement, dear. Damage caused by use of > 5% biodiesel is NOT warranted.
It's as simple as that. No lawyers required to understand English.
Too bad that English is not used in the VW warranty.
Proving fuel causes damage to an engine is not trivial.
VW of North America is being hostile to Biodiesel, whereas VW embraces biodiesel in Germany.
Makes me to be a North American. but *** do I know?

 

[TDIMeister]

VW of North America is being hostile to Biodiesel, whereas VW embraces biodiesel in Germany.
Makes me to be a North American. but *** do I know?

Do you really want to know?

 

[Route 66]

Tim Pawlenty the Govenor of Minnesota wants to increase the mandate of the percentage of bio from 5% to 20% over the next five years.

 

[XXX_er]

VW covering something that is risky would affect the end price of a new VW for eveyone in the end

couldnt the users of alternative fuel band together and support themselves if VW feels its too risky?

 

[DesertV10]

I've wondered for some time about what would happen with a fuel related issue in Illinois. Much of the diesel sold there is B11, although the pumps aren't labeled as such and it sometimes the clerk on duty does not know. Apparently this is an Illinois tax situation that gives a tax break to someone in the supply chain, I don't know all the details.

 

[BKmetz]

VW covering something that is risky would affect the end price of a new VW for eveyone in the end

couldnt the users of alternative fuel band together and support themselves if VW feels its too risky?

LOL...

You're using common sense there. Good luck with that. That implies the B100/SVO/WVO crowd would have to hold themselves accountable for their own actions and for the actions of others. With the HUGE disparity in fuel quality, owner knowledge, technical know-how, and equipemnt, no one wants any part of that.

So we have the next best thing here at TDIClub, our 'fuel disclaimer' that states you are your own warranty if you intentionally misfuel your car. This is a non-issue for most of the users of alternative fuels as they are out of their warranty period anyway.

 

[BKmetz]

I've wondered for some time about what would happen with a fuel related issue in Illinois. Much of the diesel sold there is B11, although the pumps aren't labeled as such and it sometimes the clerk on duty does not know. Apparently this is an Illinois tax situation that gives a tax break to someone in the supply chain, I don't know all the details.

A new law was just passed in IL that mandates all diesel pumps must have a label showing the percentage of bio content. But with the state going broke who knows when they will be able to enforce it. I have never seen a diesel pump labeled B11 yet and as far as I know retailers don't want to so they can keep the tax break and charge us the full pump price.

Capitalism and government working in our favor...

 

[Route 66]

Yes Brian, the State of Minnesota does not dislpay the percentage nor the fact that bio is used.

 

[XXX_er]

LOL...

You're using common sense there. Good luck with that.

yea I know

I don't plan to run alternative fuel in my stock 02 golf or any car that any alternative fuel is NOT recommended in ,cuz even if there was BIo D around I personaly don't want the costs associated with any problems arising from using unspecifyed fuel .

I don't mind if somebody else uses it but IMO there is no doubt you should be on yer own if something goes wrong

Its really no different than buying a car and souping it up or making some modification for high performance/handling ...the warranty is null and void


I'm suprised I didnt get flamed on that statement

 

[Neurot]

BKmetz - the idea that an article referencing TDIclub constitutes an endorsement is absurd. Let's clear the air about that right now. This is just a forum - why would TDIclub have an opinion or stance or endorsement of anything? I could be wrong, but I feel like public forums such as TDIclub are more public domain than "owned" by anyone. I have been reading and posting in here for years (a lot less posting than reading) and have never gotten the feeling that the site as a company or entity take any position on anything. That is, EXCEPT for biofuels, which it is decidedly unfriendly towards. Are you actually thinking someone is going to sue "TDIclub.com" because they read a post saying to try biodiesel and it didn't work for them? Please elaborate on exactly what it is that the site mods are afraid of - it feels like they just don't like/care about biofuels, but put in a subforum to keep those posts from mixing in with everything else.
There are other forums out there that have much more friendlier posters and mods when it comes to alternative fuels. The reason I didn't post my B100 testing there is because I feel that TDI is overall the best place for TDI content, period. However, if there is nothing but replies from people slamming biodiesel, or needing to be convinced to use it, the biofuels crowd will go elsewhere. It would be great if those not really interested in biofuels would just stay out of the alternative fuels section. I don't troll the Ford messageboards to talk about how great my Dodge is, or to report the failings of the crappy 99-03 fuel injector pump on the 6.2L F250...so if we could have a little less crap from the naysayers, the forum could become more useful, stay more civil, and be more likely to keep the alternative fuel advocates reading this forum.

 

[Tarbe]

It would be great if those not really interested in biofuels would just stay out of the alternative fuels section. I don't troll the Ford messageboards to talk about how great my Dodge is, or to report the failings of the crappy 99-03 fuel injector pump on the 6.2L F250...so if we could have a little less crap from the naysayers, the forum could become more useful, stay more civil, and be more likely to keep the alternative fuel advocates reading this forum.

These naysayers, as you call them, happen to have legit concerns about high ratio biofuel use in these vehicles. You must remember that lots of uninformed folks browse through here...only presenting one side of any issue is not going to serve the best interest of the community.

If you want a forum where you can be the thought police, you might want to start your own. Fred's allows you to post what you want to concerning biofuels...why won't you allow others the same right?


Tim (currently running B3 in his '09)

 

[BKmetz]

This is posted so members can make a better informed decision about altering their cars to run on biofuels.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/renewablefuels/420b07019.pdf


It's the EPA rules on making, selling, and using biofuels. The good news is that the EPA does not disallow the use of any form of biodiesel, but it sure does want people to keep their vehicles emission compliant. The bad news is the the EPA does not recognize SVO/WVO as a vehicle fuel source, on-road, off-road, whatever.

Again, I commend Neurot for using his car as a test rig.

 

[thebigarniedog]

BKmetz - the idea that an article referencing TDIclub constitutes an endorsement is absurd. Let's clear the air about that right now...... That is, EXCEPT for biofuels, which it is decidedly unfriendly towards. Are you actually thinking someone is going to sue "TDIclub.com" because they read a post saying to try biodiesel and it didn't work for them? .......

That's like suing McDonalds for serving hot coffee ..... Oh, yeah they did and won .

 

[BKmetz]

TDIClub is not worried about getting sued. It's the flawed logic that people use that can get them into trouble.

Someone does something.

They post the something on TDIClub's forums.

Someone else searches the internet to find out about the something and get links to TDIClub.

The person doing the search reasons that since it was posted on TDIClub, then it must be OK to do and TDIClub approves it!

The person then tries to duplicate what was read on TDIClub and because they didn't understand what they were doing, suffer a failure.

Frustrated person reports their failure and gets flamed hard for not doing the proper homework.

TDIClub is about anti-fail.

 

[Neurot]

Thanks for the clarification, BK. You may want to remove the section for alternative fuels altogether because none of them are foolproof.

Frankly, you're out of touch with the alternative fuel user community. I fuel hundreds of VW's, Ford pickups, Chevy pickups, Dodge pickups, and even Mercedes that have lots of warranty left.

Your claim that I am my own warranty is also not true. A vehicle warranty is much more than a fuel system, even if that part were to no longer be covered.

 

[BKmetz]

Your claim that I am my own warranty is also not true. A vehicle warranty is much more than a fuel system, even if that part were to no longer be covered.

I explained all that in post #10.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2289952&postcount=10

When it comes to your fuel system, VW's warranty on the fuel system, and using B5 or higher, you are indeed your own warranty.

I'm certainly not out of touch with the failure I read here everyday.

 

[markeckley@yahoo.com]

BKMetz, you might not be out of touch, but you're dead wrong about VW having any basis for revoking warranty due to fuel use.
Google Magnuson-Voss act.

VW cannot revoke warranty coverage unless they demonstrate part failure is due to the fuel in the car.
They can't revoke warranty because you didn't follow their reccommendation.
VW cannot specify the fuel an owner uses. End of story.