Volkswagen exec reaffirms commitment to diesel: ‘Now it is absolutely clean’

atc98002

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Say what? My Honda barely uses its battery at all (about 1% of the time). EVs use their batteries 100% of the time and will burn them out faster.

Also ye are lying with statistics. Teslas that are older than 10 years (when battery failure becomes common) is only 5,000 units. That sample size is too dmall. The supermajority of Teslas are not old enough to drawva conclusion. They are still too young. Not until 2025 will we see how these aging batteries perform (or fail)

BTW Tesla owners remind me of religious zealots. They absolutely BELIEVE that tesla cars are perfect (Praise Elon Musk aaaamen). Put a pope hat on his holy head. Sometimes I expect EV owners to be carrying bibles, they are so zealot. Their FAITH has little basis in logic. They are running on rainbows & fairies not facts/rational thinking

They have eyes that appear brainwashed (like cult followers).
Your hybrid battery is used constantly, not just when it's moving the car without the ICE running. It's providing EV assistance when accelerating, can take over from the ICE when lightly loaded, and constantly receives charging (regeneration) every time you touch the brakes. And from what I've read about the Honda hybrid, they did a pretty poor overall job with the entire system. Pure EVs do use the battery constantly, but it's also designed for it, and as long as the owner doesn't abuse it there's no reason it can't last for many hundreds of thousands of miles.

There many not be many Teslas over 10 years old, but there are quite a number with batteries that are well beyond 100,000 miles. Some have used Superchargers extensively, and still see 350-400,000 miles without replacing. Have they lost some range? Yes, but still have a lot more range than many new EVs today.

I am not a strong fan of Tesla overall. But I think they will be successful in the long run. I'm far more inclined to get the VW ID.4 when it comes out, or maybe just turn my PHEV in for a new Niro EV when my lease is up. And I might even end up with the RAV4 PHEV, if I decide I don't want to go full EV yet, since it will have 40 miles EV range, a heat pump, and the other things that make going EV nice.

I'd even consider a new TDI VW, but my gut feeling is we'll never see them here again. Depending on my needs, I might pick up a used one this year sometime.
 

nwdiver

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They absolutely BELIEVE that tesla cars are perfect
Teslas are FAR from perfect. I mean... they do use >200wh/mi or ~140mpge... that's A LOT of energy compared to riding a bike.

Diesel Engines just set the bar really... REALLY low... :(
 

bhtooefr

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Although, interestingly, an EV car - especially a Tesla Model 3 or Hyundai Ioniq EV - can pretty easily beat a human on a fully human-powered bicycle on CO2 equivalent emissions, especially if the human isn't on the lowest emission vegan diet (enjoy your rice and lentils, and not much else).

However, electrifying the bicycle extremely rapidly fixes that problem.
 

jackbombay

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And battery replacement is not an outlier. Goto any Honda or Prius forum, and you’ll find 1000s of threads about wornout batteries needing replacement.
Yep, and if you are a human with a tool set and the ability to search youtube you can swap your own battery for minimal cost. If you don't know which way to apply pressure to a wrench to loosen a nut you will have to pay more.
 

jackbombay

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if the human isn't on the lowest emission vegan diet (enjoy your rice and lentils, and not much else).
Thats what you think vegans eat? Rice and lentils?

I'll gladly line my bike up against anyone, I'm in the %85 of bikers as a whole and I don't actually ride my bike very much, and I'm notaly older than most bikers, and I attribute it to my diet.

To quote Pink Floyd, You pick the place and I'll choose the time.
 

bhtooefr

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No, that's not what I think vegans eat.

That's, AFAIK, the lowest CO2 equivalent emissions diet that gets you complete protein.

If you eat almost anything else, your emissions are higher, that's all.
 

BeetlePD

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Your hybrid battery is used constantly, not just when it's moving the car without the ICE running. It's providing EV assistance when accelerating, can take over from the ICE when lightly loaded, and constantly receives charging (regeneration) every time you touch the brakes.
What you described is NOT constant use. If I’m driving my Honda Insight to work at a steady 60mph then the battery is neither assisting or charging (the dash meter shows 0 current flowing). The battery is just sitting idle. That means it is used less than 100 percent. Not all thr time.

Also it doesn’t run on pure electric. It doesn’t have an EV mode. Saying the battery can “move the car without running the ICE” is completely ignorant. It isn’t a Prius.
from what I've read about the Honda hybrid, they did a pretty poor overall job with the entire system.
. Yeah I’ve heard that from others, but my 2000 Honda Insight is the only hybrid to be rated 66 MPG highway (official EPA sticker). Honda clearly did something right (namely they used a three cylinder engine).

And besides PRIUSES have failures too. Goto priuschat.com and see tons of threads about failed batteries. Unfortunately a Prius cannot be driven with a dead battery. The Honda can. I think that’s another way Honda engineers did a superior design, since I’ve driven 1000s of miles with dead battery (and manual shift).
 
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BeetlePD

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There many not be many Teslas over 10 years old, but there are quite a number with batteries that are well beyond 100,000 miles.
YES and some of them have needed replacement at just 120-130,000 miles. The drivers complained about it on EV forums or on youtube.

Pretending these failed batteries don’t exist is intellectually dishonest. Like telling people a TDI will never need a new turbo. It is deceptive to car buyers

.
 
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nwdiver

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YES and some of them have needed replacement at just 120-130,000 miles. The drivers complained about it on EV forums or on youtube.

Pretending these failed batteries don’t exist is intellectually dishonest

.
ok.... and my sister needed a new transmission for her TDI after 15k miles; Pretending outliers are typical is intellectually dishonest.

My sister had her transmission replaced under warranty... just like >95% of battery failures so far.

You also have a fundamental misunderstanding of what causes battery degradation. It’s depth of discharge not continual use. I rented a hybrid once with a battery meter. We fully cycled the battery roughly once every 90 minutes between accelerating and regeneration. An EV battery would be cycled to 80% once in 3 hours of driving. So hybrids are actually much harder on their packs than EVs are.
 
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BeetlePD

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No you didn’t. Hybrids never drain below 30% and never charge above 60% to limit stress (and extend life). AGAIN you demonstrate your ignorance about how hybrids work.

When nearly 100 Tesla owners had to replace their batteries at 120,000 or 130,000 miles that is not an outlier. It is a significant number.
Yep, and if you are a human with a tool set and the ability to search youtube you can swap your own battery for minimal cost.
WHAT?!?!? Your post is the dumbest on this tjread. A high voltage hybrid battery costs $2000 to $3000 to buy from Honda or Toyota or any other carmaker. That is NOT minimal cost.
 
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flee

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Yeah, remember that this guy can't even afford a couple hundred for a used turbo.
No way can he afford a set of tools!
 

nwdiver

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No you didn’t. Hybrids never drain below 30% and never charge above 60% to limit stress. AGAIN you demonstrate your ignorance about how hybrids work.

When nearly 100 Tesla owners had to replace their batteries at 120,000 or 130,000 miles that is not an outlier. It is a significant number.

WHAT?!?!? Your post is the dumbest on this tjread. A high voltage hybrid battery costs $2000 to $3000 to buy from Honda or Toyota or any other carmaker. That is NOT minimal cost.
LOL! Inform webster’s... 0.01% is ‘significant’

.... And most EV miles only cycle ~20% of the pack. Again on average hybrid batteries live a tougher life.
 

BeetlePD

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This from the man who still thinks Honda Insight or Civic Hybrid have EV modes (rolls eyes). And that they use the whole battery (no just 30% of it). You are clearly ignorant of how hybrids actually work. .....dateline 2030: Tesla is facing a class action lawsuit. 10% of their cars had battery failure before 150,000 miles and owners are angry.

Hopefully I am wrong, but I don’t think I will be. Batteries age and wearout (and also the cells go out of balance). Assuming average 12,000/year commute we are asking them to last 13 years. Long time.
 
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nwdiver

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This from the man who still thinks Honda Insight or Civic Hybrid have EV modes (rolls eyes). And that they use the whole battery (no just 30% of it). You are clearly ignorant of how hybrids actually work. .....dateline 2030: Tesla is facing a class action lawsuit. 10% of their cars had battery failure before 150,000 miles and owners are angry.

Hopefully I am wrong, but I don’t think I will be. Batteries age and wearout (and also the cells go out of balance). Assuming average 12,000/year commute we are asking them to last 13 years. Long time.
??? Um... no... 10% of cars >150k miles have not had their packs replaced and batteries are continually improving.

.... you realize EVs balance their cells.... right?
 
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atc98002

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What you described is NOT constant use. If I’m driving my Honda Insight to work at a steady 60mph then the battery is neither assisting or charging (the dash meter shows 0 current flowing). The battery is just sitting idle. That means it is used less than 100 percent. Not all thr time.
I didn't say continuous, I said constant. Ok, we're word nit-picking here. But other than steady state flat ground driving, there's current going into and out of the battery on a regular basis.
Also it doesn’t run on pure electric. It doesn’t have an EV mode. Saying the battery can “move the car without running the ICE” is completely ignorant. It isn’t a Prius. . Yeah I’ve heard that from others, but my 2000 Honda Insight is the only hybrid to be rated 66 MPG highway (official EPA sticker). Honda clearly did something right (namely they used a three cylinder engine).
I've never driven a Honda hybrid, but have driven many others. They certainly are capable of moving the car without the ICE running. Not, it's not an EV mode, and they can't accelerate very much before the ICE fires. But my son-in-law's Ioniq can maintain freeway speeds with the EV motor only, just has to be level ground. Even most PHEVs can't stay 100% battery power if you press the go pedal too far. I get to about 70% pedal before my ICE starts. The Volt could remain 100% EV, and I've heard the Prius Prime can as well. That's the only two I know of.
 

bhtooefr

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The older Honda hybrids actually can't propel themselves without the ICE running - the electric motor takes the place of the flywheel, so electric motor RPM = engine RPM. That's also part of why they work when the hybrid system fails - when it does fail, there's a backup 12 volt starter motor, and there's a conventional transmission (either a CVT or a manual).

However, the SoC range was very, very wide on Honda hybrids initially, causing a lot of early battery failures, that Honda had to cover under warranty. IIRC, software updates were released to narrow the SoC range to preserve the batteries (at the expense of efficiency and performance).

The current EPA MPG of the 2000 Insight is 49 city, 61 highway, 53 combined, out of a sub-2000 pound 2-seater. Meanwhile, an over-3000 pound 5-seat Prius Eco is at 58 city, 53 highway, 56 combined, or a similarly sized Ioniq Blue is at 57 city, 59 highway, 58 combined. (The Ioniq IIRC is a bit worse relative to its EPA ratings than the Prius is, but still.)

Prius battery failures are... they definitely happen, but it's surprisingly uncommon. It's just that there's so many of the things that the uncommon is common enough.
 

BeetlePD

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Prius rated just 53 MPG on highway is pathetic. When I bought my insight, the original EPA sticker said 70 MPG highway and my insight does that easily. I don’t condider it a failed design when it gives me amazing economy
dateline 2030: Tesla is facing a class action lawsuit
Um... no... 10% of cars >150k miles have not had their packs replaced.?
Not only do you have no clue how Honda hybrids work, you also cannot read. My post clearly said 2030 (the future). I’m saying I expect a lot of battery failures in the year 2030, because the oldest Teslas will be very old. Batteries fail when they are elderly.
EVs balance batteries
. You cannot balance a battery if some of the cells are weak. For example some cells might fully-charge to 1.5 volts while weaker cells peak at 1.2 which means thr battery is unbalanced. That is the main reason batteries need replaced

.
 
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BeetlePD

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Greenercars.org says EVs are not really any cleaner than gasoline cars. In their well-to-car analysis, they rate the Model S as no cleaner than a Cruze Diesel, and a Hyundai Ioniq EV as only 1% cleaner thsn the gasoline Ioniq

.
 

turbobrick240

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Thanks to many of the best minds in the battery development industry, Tesla is soon to introduce million mile battery packs. That should put to rest most of the ill-informed, antiquated views about battery longevity.

wired- million mile batteries
 

jackbombay

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WHAT?!?!? Your post is the dumbest on this tjread.
Your posts are obviously not included in this "calculation" you performed.

I’m saying I expect a lot of battery failures in the year 2030, because the oldest Teslas will be very old. Batteries fail when they are elderly.
And cars that burn gasoline or diesel never fail when the get elderly so we're all obviously supposed to agree that EV's are inferior to ICE powered vehicles.

Tesla is soon to introduce million mile battery packs. That should put to rest most of the ill-informed, antiquated views about battery longevity.
Ah HA! So you admit that electric car will fail if they are driven over one million miles! We will conveniently ignore the fact that ICE powered cars on average end up in the junk yard with less than 200,000 miles on them while we do a happy dance celebrating that fact that Teslas will only do one million miles before the battery *may* need replacing!
 

nwdiver

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Greenercars.org says EVs are not really any cleaner than gasoline cars. In their well-to-car analysis, they rate the Model S as no cleaner than a Cruze Diesel, and a Hyundai Ioniq EV as only 1% cleaner thsn the gasoline Ioniq
.
What 'grid mix' are they assuming? A common error is neglecting the fact that EVs don't use 'grid mix'. At a minimum EVs can be easily charged off-peak most of the time when renewables are more abundant. Soon they can be used as a buffer to reduce curtailment of wind and solar. EVs can be used to increase the amount of clean energy the grid can support. Cleaner cars can help make the grid cleaner which makes cleaner cars. Don't get any better than that :)

Electric Vehicle Batteries Will ‘Dwarf’ The Grid’s Energy-Storage Needs
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I had to replace the battery in two of my hybrids.... $2000 times two. I doubt EVs will be any different, requiring a battery replacement which erases any supposed savings

Also I already mentioned I can buy a Fiesta or Mitsubishi for only $12,000. That’s a hell lot cheaper than the Tesla. That’s about $25000 cheaper which will buy over 300,000 miles of gasoline. Of course I never keep cars past 200K so that means the Fiesta/Mitsubishi is cheaper on the longterm. I try to chose what is cheapest

And YES Teslas need maintenance like flushing the coolant, replacing the air filter, flushing brake fluid every two years, et cetera. Tesla owners who say “no maintenance” are lying to you

.

Well according to one of your [many] other threads, you cannot even afford a turbocharger for your Beetle. So... :rolleyes:
 

redbarron55

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I drove a first generation Prius for close to 200,000 miles and it did need a battery. I figured that it was like a transmission repair or so.
The car was basically trouble free for that time.
I also drove a 2009 JSW 2.0 TDI for close to 300,000 miles and during that time I spent a lot more on maintenance a DPF cracked and clogged (down pipe) a DSG clutch and two timing belt replacements.
The operating cost was much higher for the JSW, but it was also a nicer car and a great touring car.
VW bought it back for around $9000 as they also bought the 2013 for $23000.
Currently I have gone basically crazy and bought a 2012 Touareg Exec TDI.
The new EVs are probably a lot better than the old Prius I, but I don't drive enough anymore for that to be a concern and when I drive more it is on long trips where recharging would be a problem.
This last year we towed our little Scamp travel trailer 95000 miles with our 2016 T&C and 7500 miles with our 2012 Touareg and and EV would not have done that.
There is a place for EVs and ICE. EVs are getting better and if we stayed around town all of the time I would seriously consider one (and have seriously considered one already).
 

tikal

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Perhaps the following graph would put this thread more in track of the relative 'cleanliness' of passenger vehicles. From the graph I observe that the overall environmental foot print per mile driven of the 2018 models are as follows from best to worst (leaving out H2 powered passenger vehicles, R100 diesel (since it is so scarce) and Compressed Natural Gas vehicles):

1) Battery Electrical Vehicle (BEV) solar charging
2) BMW X5 diesel with compliant emissions system (actual on the road emissions tested by University of West Virginia)
3) Battery Electrical Vehicle (BEV) with electricity coming from Natural Gas
4) Battery Electrical Vehicle (BEV) with electricity coming from California electrical grid system
5) Diesel passenger vehicles such as fixed CR TDIs
6) SIDI (Spark Ignited Direct Injection) vehicles using E10 (gasoline w/ up to 10% ethanol)
7) Hybrid vehicles (for simplicity I lumped together SI HEV and PHEV running on U.S. Mix)
8) Battery Electrical Vehicle (BEV) running on average U.S. Mix electrical grid (which I supposed includes coal which makes it this bad)

If wxman reads this thread maybe he has a more updated chart.

Here is an update of the non-GHG damages of various technologies and fuels using the most recent version of GREET (GREET_2017), and using urban/non-urban damage factors as suggested by bhtooefr:


 
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turbobrick240

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Perhaps the following graph would put this thread more in track of the relative 'cleanliness' of passenger vehicles. From the graph I observe that the overall environmental foot print per mile driven of the 2018 models are as follows from best to worst (leaving out H2 powered passenger vehicles, R100 diesel (since it is so scarce) and Compressed Natural Gas vehicles):
.
That chart does not represent "overall environmental footprint". It is supposed to represent human health impacts. It's a fairly crude estimation based upon LCA's that do a fairly poor job of accounting for human exposure. E.g.- 10 kg of lead in a car battery generally poses much less of a health hazard than 10 kg of lead in the paint inside a home.
 

wxman

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Why do you think these LCAs (GREET in this case) do a "poor job" of accounting for human exposure?
 

turbobrick240

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nwdiver

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Fun Fact; In 2013 I sold my 2003 Jetta TDI for $3k. I bought 100 shares of TSLA around the same time for roughly the same price. If I sold that stock today I could buy a new Tesla Model 3. CRAZY.

'Course.... If it'd bought TSLA instead of a Tesla in 2013 today I could buy a really... REALLY nice house... hindsight :(
 
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