VOA - Schaeffer S9000 5W40 - VOA

wjdell

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06 Jetta TDI DSG PKG 1 17" VV Campy White/Beige
Oil Type Schaeffer S9000 CJ4 (505.01)

--------------------------- VOA ~~~ 1300 miles/37 hrs.
Fe Iron ------------------- 1 ~~~~ 4 - 3 ppm Fe, good when you consider 1 inherited from oil, and 1 from engine.
Cu ------------------------- 0 -------- 2 - I replaced my plumbing from brass to stainless and new copper tube.
Pb ------------------------- 0 -------- 1 - inherited from previous OCI.
Si Silicone ------------ 10 ~~~~ 13
Na Sodium ------------- 5 ~~-~~ 9 - this is puzzling.
Mo Molybdenum -- 320 ~~~~ 316
Sb Antimony --------- 37 ~~-~~ 37
Mg Magnesium ---- 944 ~~~~ 711 - I and Polaris tech feel there possibly was some stripping here -
Ca Calcium -------- 1254 ~~~ 1249
P Phosphorus ---- 1110 ~~~ 1066
Zn Zinc -------------- 1184 ~~~ 1238
Viscosity 100C --- 15.7 ~~~~ 14.4 - this was expected and welcome
TBN ------------------- 9.08 ~~-~~ 8.3
PQ --------------------- N/A ~~~-~~ 7 - very clean oil - thanks to Diesel Geek and Amsoil

~~~~~~ VOA
ISO Code ----- 22/21/15
4 micron ------- 37,645
6 micron ------ 18,237
10 micron ----- 3,155
14 micron ------- 277
21 micron -------- 29
38 micron --------- 2
70 micron --------- 0
100 micron ------- 0

It looks sorta like a Mobil formulaion cept they used Antimony and Mobil uses Boron. If you compare Mobil 1 Delvac ESP you will see the similarites. Yes we all know like AFL this oil has not been tested by the deity VAG or API. I will be installing a Deisel Geek bypass filtration system and we will be able to see just how well the Amsoil BP90 can clean up this oil. All oils have dirt in them from the bottle or drum. The first OCI in Dec may not tell the story so it will be mid 2009 before we get the second UOA.

We can not get a ISO Code on used diesel oil. So I will either do a PQ or a Direct Read.
 
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Tarbe

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I believe much of the Si is from anti-foam...needed if used in Powerstrokes with their HEUI injectors.
 

GMARK

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Back from Iraq!
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2004 Jetta GL Reflex Silver 5 speed. Ventectomy, coolant migration mod, Hella Comets, FK air ducts.
Tarbe said:
I believe much of the Si is from anti-foam...needed if used in Powerstrokes with their HEUI injectors.
Witih its resistance to shearing, S9000 has proven itself to be superb in the 6.0L Powerstroke, an engine known for being very hard on the oil.

Should be a just dandy in a TDI too.;)

G
 

jrad12381

Member
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Aug 14, 2008
Location
Reno
TDI
looking to buy one
I am currently running this in my TDI. I have ran it in my Dmax for a year with great results. I just purchased my 05 passat TDI, and it meets 505.01 specs so I gave it a try. So far so good?
 

Tarbe

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USA
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Touareg and Sportwagon Sold to VW
I have about 10 gallons of S9000 in my garage...too bad I can't use it in the '09 (when it finally shows up!).
 

wjdell

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Central Florida
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06 Jetta TDI DSG PKG 1 17" VV Campy White/Beige
jrad - the passats are tough on oil - so your data will be valuble - I hope you will post a UOA in the database. If you look at 04PDwagon you will see his passat chewed up Motul and Elf 505.01 oils. This is probably more of a reflection on VW's sump size, then it is on the oils. But it will be a good example. I expect a rise in Fe and a decrease in all other metals, really about the same as the last. This is my first OC of S9000 and I am not sure of the left over 507 will have a negative effect. I do have one UOA in the database were a BEW who got great numbers from a very good Pento TS posted a slight decrease with S9000, so we know it was as good as TS. But they went from 505.01 and I am going from 507.00.

I would like to see more Amsoil DEO users, Shell Rotella T CJ4, Valvoline has a 5W40 SYN CJ4. Another oil that looks like it would have great potential is PC Duron E 0W40 SYN CJ4. Hopefully some of our northern members will give that oil a chance. It shows a -66F pour point. We have allot of Mobil TDT and Delvac ESP CJ4 users and they clearly hold top honors at this time. Despite some very bad UOA's for LLX and DID they are showing great performance also. Castrol SLX III is also doing well but the other oils are to few in number to give any real indication.
 

jrad12381

Member
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Aug 14, 2008
Location
Reno
TDI
looking to buy one
I will see what I can do. My girlfriends father is a sales rep. for schaeffers, and when I purchase my oil from him I get vials for UOA's performed by schaeffers.
 

wjdell

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06 Jetta TDI DSG PKG 1 17" VV Campy White/Beige
If you are trying to tell us it has no API "donut" we know that. You have no way to say this oil would pass or not - or do you have all that test equipment and have run the tests in your garage. If you are qualified to say this is oil does not meet spec tell us about your credentials and how you tested this product., show us the test data were it failed, otherwise let it go.

I edited the post to show no license fees were paid - hope that helps.
 
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Bob_Fout

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Indiana
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2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
OilGuy said:
In addition to not being VW tested and approved, it doesn't even meet minimum CJ-4 requirements either (despite their "recommendation" for this spec):
http://eolcs.api.org/DisplayLicenseInfo.asp?LicenseNo=0032
Darn, it and Amsoil DEO must really suck since they're not approved by anyone...:p (despite outstanding UOAs and years of quality products).
 

OilGuy

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Northern Virginia
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2003 Jetta TDI Wagon
Just stating a fact - this is not a new issue. The OP correctly addressed that lack of VW validation, but stated CJ-4 as if it were indeed validated (the responsibility for proof is on the marketer making the claim, not Joe Public consumer). Some may not care if an oil marketer does not have proof to support a claim - others may care if an empty, unvalidated claim is made.

If anything, makes you wonder what aspect of the formulation prohibits them from obtaining the $1000 API license like they have for many of their other products - this is the first product of theirs that I am aware has gone the route of making a claim without proof.
 

wjdell

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06 Jetta TDI DSG PKG 1 17" VV Campy White/Beige
One of the reasons I like this company is they did not license this oil and thus charge me for it. Schaeffer does not spend allot on TV advertising and thus charge me for it. If I want to make a donation to the API I will log on and do so. I do not want them in my pocket for every quart of oil I buy. Like Amsoil they put the money in the product ANTIMONY is not a cheap additve. The oil resembles Motul 300V another very pricy oil. This oil was dropped shipped to my home direct from Schaeffer Oil Co. This reduces cost and I was able to obtain a great oil for only 5.37 per quart.
 
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wjdell

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06 Jetta TDI DSG PKG 1 17" VV Campy White/Beige
You can not get CJ4 lic for 1000 - you can get outdated spec for less money but not the latest specs. Eventully the price will drop for the license and when it does then Schaffer considers wether it is worth while or not to post that donut on there product. Its like a royalty, just like I paid to Astra Dinol of Sweden 30 years ago - it was not a one time fee. I had to pay royalty on every 55 gallon container sold. For me it was about 230 for every 55 gallons.
 

OilGuy

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Northern Virginia
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This is what the API says (no reference to certain spec costing more than others to license):

FEES
The EOLCS minimum royalty fee for licensure is $1,050
U.S. for API members and $1,250 U.S. for non-members.
Additionally, an annual fee of $0.0015 per gallon of
licensed motor oil after the first million gallons of
production of licensed oil will be assessed. (Please note
that the fees are subject to change.)
 

wjdell

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06 Jetta TDI DSG PKG 1 17" VV Campy White/Beige
depends which oil and which spec - min royalty fee - you will not license a 5W40 CJ4 for that price today. you may in a few years but not yet. Contact the API and ask them how much to test, license, and per gallon of 5W40 not 15W40 CJ4 but 5W40 CJ4. The difference is huge. edit typo 15W40 CI4

Also the API is not the best way to spec a oil - this is why all the different engine mfg set their own spec. Then what is important is to get qualifed labs to run all those different test. If you pass the test then the oil is good. It does not matter if you pay for the right to run a logo. I guess there is only a few labs in the US, Southwest something IIRC, and I thought someone stated Ashland oil has their facility.
 
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jrad12381

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Reno
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looking to buy one
I am confused because it does meet cj-4 spec, that why I have been running it in my truck, and it does meet or exceed 505.01 VW spec. Just go to there website, or read the bottle. Schaefers has been around forever, and make great products. I am sure they are not miss advertising.
 

wjdell

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06 Jetta TDI DSG PKG 1 17" VV Campy White/Beige
jrad - we can trust Schaeffer has tested these oils - but 9000 it is not licensed by the API or VAG. The Vice President of sales wrote me and said eventaully they will when the cost drops. There is also disadvantages to a license - you are locked and can not make any changes to that oil. I really do not have the data, nor I have spent the hours and days trying to read all the fine lines to be able to explain this. One of the few people who reads and understands all this stuff and can explain it is AndyH. He actually has posted it all. If you were to take the time to search his post and threads he has posted mountains of data.

I have a list of which are licensed and which are not - i will try to find it
 
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jrad12381

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Reno
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looking to buy one
Well I am going to stick with it, and I will get a UOA done. The only problem is I have nothing to campare it to for previous readings as I am sure it was never done on this car.
 

wjdell

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Central Florida
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06 Jetta TDI DSG PKG 1 17" VV Campy White/Beige
Here is the list that has API licensed products - as you can see many of the the spec are older and the cost for these products to be licensed is very low. Yes the cost of 15W40 CJ4 is much lower than the cost of 5W40 CJ4. I am seeing other companies doing the same thing.

#100 MICRON MOLY

5W-30
SL*
#106 MICRON MOLY
10W-40
SL
#107 MOLY BOND X200
10W
CF/SH
#107 MOLY BOND X200
30
CF,CF-2/SJ
#107 MOLY BOND X200
50
CF,CF-2/SH
#110 MICRON MOLY RACING
30
SL
#110 MICRON MOLY RACING
50
SL
#151 MOLY BOND X-200
15W-40
CH-4,CI-4/SL
#191 MICRON MOLY RACING
20W-50
SL
#306 MICRON MOLY
10W-30
SL*
#700 SUPREME 7000
15W-40
CH-4,CI-4/SL
#700 SUPREME 7000
15W-40
CH-4,CI-4/SL**
#700 SUPREME 7000 SYNTHETIC PLUS
15W-40
CH-4,CI-4,CJ-4/SM**
#701 SUPREME 7000
5W-30
SM*
#702 MOLY SUPREME 7000
30
CF,CF-2/SH
#702 MOLY SUPREME 7000
40
CF,CF-2/SH
#702 SUPREME 7000
40
CF,CF-2/SJ
#703 SUPREME 7000
10W-30
SM*
#704 SUPREME 7000
5W-20
SM*
#705 SUPREME 7000 RACING
20W-50
SM
#750 SUPREME 7000 PLUS
15W-40
CH-4,CI-4,CJ-4/SM

Unfortunately, the API is lagging behind the rest of the industry in approving licensing categories on some of the newer viscosities like 5W-40 and 0W-50. OEMs and the consumers are asking for new viscosity categories faster than the API and SAE can accommodate them. Another complicating factor in licensing is that smaller companies are at the mercy of big oil who control the API membership to some degree. For instance, the category may be available for licensing, but only if you can pony up $2M - $3M for specialized testing. Specialty companies rely on the additive suppliers to foot the bill, then spread the cost of several users of the additive. Exxon/Mobil and BP/Amoco just go into their pockets (pretty deep pockets these days) and pull out the money. For that reason, certain categories may lag behind demand for several months. If the oil meets the spec (and that is a big IF these days), licensing can become a marketing formality.
 
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wjdell

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jrad12381 said:
Well I am going to stick with it, and I will get a UOA done. The only problem is I have nothing to campare it to for previous readings as I am sure it was never done on this car.
You will need to do at least 3 using the same oil - then you will see the wear trend. Every car and driver varies, the stage of life 50k or 200k - The more UOA's of TDI's using the oil the better.
 

OilGuy

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Well, I guess we can choose to disagree. You are free to believe the spin of the small company salesman (even though they choose to pay the mystery higher fee they complain about for their 7000 Plus product, hmmm). I prefer to trust independent sources such as the entities (like the API) who validate oil performance.

Feel free to read API's licensing info posted online for all to see - or write or call them to see if they have any details about backlogs or hidden fees not disclosed on their form:
http://api.org/certifications/engineoil/forms/index.cfm
 

wjdell

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Good, were glad you were able to convey that, and we now can focus on the oil and its addpack. Now if we look at the history of my car we saw excellent performance with severa1 505.01 oils and 3 OCI's of G052195M2. There are several lines of this oil and there are variations. There is SLX III SLX Pro II , Edge 5W30, and of course VW LL III. The car has a excellent history with the oils used, and a consistant trend. Now I will run this oil a min of 3 OCI's. That should give us some information. If they are all good, I will stay, If I can see that it falls by any significant amount, I can move on to another oil. I also have to consider that Amsoil may build a lower ash oil one day, it may turn out to be another choice. Time will tell the first UOA will be @1000 miles. This will give us a good look at the DG - BP90 by-pass filter. The target value is 17/16/14, according to Polaris, that is very clean motor oil. Some hydraulic fluids must be cleaner than that. DSG VOA showed G052182A2 fluid was 21/18/13.
 
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Mach1

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05.5 Jetta 5 spd, 06 Jetta DE DSG, 04 F250 6L, 2000 F250 7.3L
WJ--good work...let the oil speak for itself...
 

wjdell

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06 Jetta TDI DSG PKG 1 17" VV Campy White/Beige
anyone who might want copies of the original reports for their records are welcome

I have the following VOA's

G052182A2 -- DSG fluid
G052195M2 -- VW LL III 504/507 oil
S9000 -- Schaeffer CJ4 5W40 oil

Send me a PM - please include your email. I have a phone line so be patient.
 

nutdriver

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Feb 4, 2002
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Wichita Area KS
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Jetta 2006 (Previously NB 2000)
WJ - I am very interested in this Schaeffer S9000. I like the high moly content and have begun to think that the moly is an important component to protecting our PD Cams. This will be an intereresting oil to watch.
 

ff603

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Location
Springfield, MO
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2001 Black TDI "Stock"
This Stuff ROCKS! Ive currently got 9 Gal. in the Garage. ive ran it in my duramax, powerstroke, and now the 01 jetta!
 
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Tarbe

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ff603 said:
This Stuff ROCKS! Ive currently got 9 Gal. in the Garage. ive ran it in my duramax, powerstroke, and now the 01 jetta!

Currently on a road trip....spending the night in West Plains.

I am down to 4 gallons of S9000 in my garage in Houston...maybe I will sneak over to Springfield and stock up!!

:)


Tim
 

ff603

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Springfield, MO
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2001 Black TDI "Stock"
i can sell you some if needed. although im getting ready to change the oil in the dodge and the jetta..so ill be reordering soon :D
 

Sloppy Snood

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Midwest
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Passsat
Where is the Boron content your VOA/UOA for Schaeffers 9000 5W-40 wjdell? :confused:

The reason I ask is because I did some researching of the Penetro additive and realized that that particular additive is antimony dithiocarbamate with an alkali metal borate (boron-based). <---- This is appears to only apply to certain greases (not motor oils)

The benefit is a "....the antimony dithiocarbamate additive and the alkali-metal borate additive interact in a synergistic manner to provide the improved extreme pressure and antiwear properties...." <---- This is appears to only apply to certain greases (not motor oils)


LINK: U.S. Patent 5,246,605 (Click Here)
 
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