Vibration, Worse Under Load/accel

scrambld

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'06 Jetta...TDI/5spd :) >>>now a '15 Passat TDI/DSG
Hi everyone,
On my 2015 Passat TDI/DSG (145K miles) I've got a vibration/steering wheel shimmy starting around 65mph getting worse approaching 75mph and the vibe isn't always of the same intensity. The vibration DOES get worse under increased load/pressing the accelerator. This has occurred with my old summer tires, my winter tires, and now with my new tires. Things I've done: New tires, old ones were pretty shot, had both axles replaced with Raxles axles, and a couple tire rotations since. Nothing I've done changed anything. Vibe under LOADING typically indicates a drivetrain issue. There are no other strange issues or symptoms, other than the vibration/steering wheel shimmy. What else should I look at? Thinking about a tire rebalance/road force balance but also thinking that will likely be waste of time and money since the symptom has been with three sets of tires now.
Car is on stock suspension, no wheel spacers, OEM 18" wheels, and I've had this car since it had 28k miles on her. Just got back from a front end shop that specializes in alignments, tire balancing, and etc....he says axles. I could see axles if I used crap replacements but I doubt the same EXACT symptoms will be present even if cheap replacements were used. Thanks in advance for any leads.....and I doubt I've left out any important details. If I remember something later, I'll update post. Thanks again!
 

watatrp

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Feb 29, 2008
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South Bend, IN
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04 Jetta tdi (gone) 2013 Passat SEL TDI
Continental......it has been three sets of tires, no change in symptoms
Odd, I had put Continentals on my car a couple of years ago. I noticed vibrations also. Sometimes worse than other times but noticed mostly at highway speeds. Sometimes it would go away after a few miles. I read that Continentals can "flat spot" even after only overnight parking. I think that when the flatspots got in sync the vibrations were worse. The first time it happened it was so bad I thought I had a flat. Everything in the car was vibrating. Got them from Discount Tire so after a couple of weeks I had them switched out to Michelin CrossClimate. Have not had a problem since.
 

senez

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Dec 20, 2007
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Raleigh, NC
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15 Passat DSG
Fortuitous timing on this post as I'm going through the same issue. My first step was going to be to replace both axles. My shimmy is under load so I notice it mainly at highway speeds on flat straights or going uphill. I don't really notice it coasting.

The other thing I've heard is the dual mass flywheel in the DSG needing to be replaced. I'm not sure of the cost on that repair, but I would suspect that's also a possibility. I don't have the telltale noises at cold start, so I'm leaning to axles, but we'll see.
 

scrambld

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'06 Jetta...TDI/5spd :) >>>now a '15 Passat TDI/DSG
Fortuitous timing on this post as I'm going through the same issue. My first step was going to be to replace both axles. My shimmy is under load so I notice it mainly at highway speeds on flat straights or going uphill. I don't really notice it coasting.

The other thing I've heard is the dual mass flywheel in the DSG needing to be replaced. I'm not sure of the cost on that repair, but I would suspect that's also a possibility. I don't have the telltale noises at cold start, so I'm leaning to axles, but we'll see.
Sounds very similar. Worse at times under similar conditions vs other times. I've eliminated tires as it's with any set ive run out of the three sets, axles replaced, so yes unfortunately I'm heading further upstream.....DMF issue or trans output shaft bearing going south....?
Weird thing is I have no other signs.....and I've been slowly chasing this maybe going on 1.5yrs. Originally thought tires but they still had life (old set), then went on the winter set on JY oem 17" wheels so didn't think much about it....and here we are. Lol
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
Check the control arm compliance bushings. NMS Passats eat them like I eat donuts.

The newer DSGs are also hard on drive axles, but when the bushings go bad, it causes the whole powertrain to shift the control arms so bad that the axles get further out of alignment.
 

senez

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Dec 20, 2007
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
15 Passat DSG
Yep, OH makes a good point there. I did have my bushings replaced about a year ago (20k miles ago), so I'm going to assume (maybe wrongfully) that my issue lies with the axles. I was getting really wonky tire wear on mine, which led to replace the bushings. But I got 207k out of them! The shimmy started up probably a couple months later. I just haven't gotten around to putting new axles on to see if that fixes it.
 

scrambld

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Jun 26, 2004
Location
Belchertown, MA
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'06 Jetta...TDI/5spd :) >>>now a '15 Passat TDI/DSG
Check the control arm compliance bushings. NMS Passats eat them like I eat donuts.

The newer DSGs are also hard on drive axles, but when the bushings go bad, it causes the whole powertrain to shift the control arms so bad that the axles get further out of alignment.
Excellent point! I didn't mention it above because I kind of discounted bad Raxles....but the shop did ask if they could've made one too long and one too short because the Dside bellows appeared stretched/Pside compressed to him.
So great suggestion OH, I will look into that possibility.
Thanks everyone! I will continue to monitor this post and update along the way.
 

Albe

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Charlotteville, VA
TDI
2003 TDI alh 1.9
I have a shimmy that comes and goes not under load and pretty random. I know my wheel bearings are making some noise, but symptom is a shudder that is intermittent for a short period (couple seconds and stops) and the wheel bearings, while making noise under load, have no determinable play (which I think is not unusual.) Some play in outer tie rods, planning to do a front suspension/wheel bearing overhaul
I know the automatic transmissions are prone to failure, could this be my problem and what is the usual symptom when transmission is failing? Im at about 225k miles?
 

Albe

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Charlotteville, VA
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2003 TDI alh 1.9
I did use an aftermarket NAPA axle shaft with lifetime warranty, could that be a possibility? Mostly wanting to rule out transmission.
 

Zambee500

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Atlanta, GA
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2005 Passat TDI GLS, 2014 NMS Passat TDI SEL Premium
Bad motor mounts can cause weird vibrations at certain power bands/speeds. Not sure if that's an issue on these NMS cars though.
 

Lug_Nut

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Sterling, MA. USA
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2015 GSW 6M in S trim the other oil burners: 1967 two stroke Sonett 1988 Bolens DGT1700
Scram, What happens at 85+? Does the shake clear up?
Steering tie rods? I've had inners start to wear and create nearly identical symptoms. Negligible wheel imbalance at select rotation rates can set up harmonics that can exactly match the 'back-lash' in rod ends and make a shake. Higher speeds are out of that resonant frequency. If the shake clears at 85 I don't suspect axles.
The accel / decel difference minutely changes the toe and can make the back-lash shake clear up despite holding that same 65~75 shaking speed.

at what RPM is 65~75? Can the DSG be held (manual mode) in a lower gear at that same RPM? In that condition is there a similar vibration during acceleration / hill climb at that same 70 mph rpm, but at the lower road speed? If vibration is present at the same rpm/lower road speed, is the vibration frequency the same (engine culprit), or has the frequency dropped (axle/wheel culprit)?
 

Dalon

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2006 Jetta TDI - 239k 2013 Passat TDI - 32k
I did use an aftermarket NAPA axle shaft with lifetime warranty, could that be a possibility? Mostly wanting to rule out transmission.
Aftermarket axles are solid, not hollow. Causes a lot more NVH. Go back to OEM axles.
 

scrambld

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'06 Jetta...TDI/5spd :) >>>now a '15 Passat TDI/DSG
Scram, What happens at 85+? Does the shake clear up?
Steering tie rods? I've had inners start to wear and create nearly identical symptoms. Negligible wheel imbalance at select rotation rates can set up harmonics that can exactly match the 'back-lash' in rod ends and make a shake. Higher speeds are out of that resonant frequency. If the shake clears at 85 I don't suspect axles.
The accel / decel difference minutely changes the toe and can make the back-lash shake clear up despite holding that same 65~75 shaking speed.

at what RPM is 65~75? Can the DSG be held (manual mode) in a lower gear at that same RPM? In that condition is there a similar vibration during acceleration / hill climb at that same 70 mph rpm, but at the lower road speed? If vibration is present at the same rpm/lower road speed, is the vibration frequency the same (engine culprit), or has the frequency dropped (axle/wheel culprit)?
Let me verify those questions above I'll check higher speeds tomorrow on my way to work, I know I have gone higher and I want to say the vibes are less....although, those speeds nay have been when vibes weren't violent. I would think the front end shop would find worn rod ends, he test drove it a few times and the severity of vibe was inconsistent.....that's just it, its not always as bad as at other times. I do know I have down shifted (man. mode) without a change in vibe...so more rpm/same road speed.....to see if speed/rpm made differences vs "auto" mode.
 

scrambld

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'06 Jetta...TDI/5spd :) >>>now a '15 Passat TDI/DSG
Ok here's what I have to the above questions. The vibe, it appears I can't drive past (meaning mph), begins around 65, worsens at 75mph, then even worse in that speed range under load/throttle. So, as I continue to apply load/tq the worsened vibration continues (steadily) even far past 95mph....😁safe stretch of roadway....

And, at 70mph or approx 1900-2000rpm there vibe is steady, without change if I drop it to 5th (manual mode....increase rpm/maintain speed). Now if take it down to 40mph and that SAME rpm of 1900-2000rpm, no discernable vibe. Sooo, not powertrain (engine/DSG/DMF) related, more of an (driveline) axle shaft rpm rotational vibe?

As OH suggested I'll be having the control arm compliance bushings looked at this coming Fri.....all suspension bushings for that matter. I'll update as needed. Thanks!
 

Canary5.0

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Missouri
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2012 Golf DSG w/ Tech Pkg. Malone Stage II
I have a shimmy that comes and goes not under load and pretty random. I know my wheel bearings are making some noise, but symptom is a shudder that is intermittent for a short period (couple seconds and stops) and the wheel bearings, while making noise under load, have no determinable play (which I think is not unusual.) Some play in outer tie rods, planning to do a front suspension/wheel bearing overhaul
I know the automatic transmissions are prone to failure, could this be my problem and what is the usual symptom when transmission is failing? Im at about 225k miles?
Not the same car but I had similar symptoms for a long time, meaning 100k plus miles. Not extreme but noticeable shudder/shake in the steering wheel. Same thing with no discernible play on the wheels like a traditional bad wheel bearing. Continuously worsened to the point that I took to a shop for diagnosis. They ran the car on a lift and listened with a stethoscope confirming both front bearings were bad. Wouldn’t hurt to get them checked out.
 

scrambld

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Belchertown, MA
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'06 Jetta...TDI/5spd :) >>>now a '15 Passat TDI/DSG
Will have everything rechecked but focus on the bushings mentioned.

So, this weekend, loaded trunk for an over nite camping....maybe a couple hundred lbs. Enough to lift the front some. Vibration didn't seem as bad. So I wondered if it's because the axles shafts are a but "extended".....the other thing I noted on the way home (trunk weight gone) was that same vibration at 65-75mph and increased underload, minimizes with a slight turn of the steering wheel (changing angularity within the CV??).
Food for thought.
 

scrambld

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'06 Jetta...TDI/5spd :) >>>now a '15 Passat TDI/DSG
Had the control arm/engine/trans mount looked at today. Seemed to be the normal amount of "squishyness". But while on lift we ran the car in drive (traction nannies wouldn't allow more than 10-15mph) we noted the axle shafts do not turn in a concentric fashion at the inner end, more of an egg shape motion. Would that be normal while running at max droop? The inners also had very slight movement and a slight clicking sound when attempting to assess movement by hand.
 

Lug_Nut

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2015 GSW 6M in S trim the other oil burners: 1967 two stroke Sonett 1988 Bolens DGT1700
No, not 'normal'. Do the inner drivers on the transmission have this 'run-out'? Probably not.
If the axle at that inner end has 'run-out', it's likely the C/V is the cause. Notify Raxles.
 

scrambld

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'06 Jetta...TDI/5spd :) >>>now a '15 Passat TDI/DSG
No, not 'normal'. Do the inner drivers on the transmission have this 'run-out'? Probably not.
If the axle at that inner end has 'run-out', it's likely the C/V is the cause. Notify Raxles.
Yes, both sides have "run-out" and a clicking sound. I'll work on posting the videos....

PS: I do have an email to Marty at Raxles.....pending reply.
 
Last edited:

drew_t

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SF Bay Area
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2013 Passat TDI SE
If you have 145k miles on the original lower control arm bushings, they are shot. You’re going to be chasing your tail trying to diagnose a front end issue if you don’t take care of these first.
 

Lug_Nut

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Jun 20, 1998
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Sterling, MA. USA
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2015 GSW 6M in S trim the other oil burners: 1967 two stroke Sonett 1988 Bolens DGT1700
One issue at a time.
The LCA are not flexing when suspended in air. There is no influence on the outer end of the drive axles by a non-moving LCA that can cause the inner axle end to oscillate as it rotates.
Replacing the LCA might improve the resistance to to in / toe out during acceleration / engine braking, but while the car's on a lift, wheels in the air, spinning at a constant "15 mph", the LCA have nothing at all to do with inner axle run-out.
 

scrambld

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'06 Jetta...TDI/5spd :) >>>now a '15 Passat TDI/DSG
^^^^ I haven't ruled Raxles are at fault. Raxles states that is normal for the design of these CV's, not for a ball bearing CV but for these "triangular" CV's. More to follow
 

Lug_Nut

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Sterling, MA. USA
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2015 GSW 6M in S trim the other oil burners: 1967 two stroke Sonett 1988 Bolens DGT1700
I am not a rebuilder of axles so I have no professional qualifications, but I call B.S. that the tripode design is somehow deliberately intended to NOT run equally true during the input and output rotation.
This isn't some 3/8 ratchet flex drive with two pivot pins offset by some distance.
 

scrambld

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'06 Jetta...TDI/5spd :) >>>now a '15 Passat TDI/DSG
Ok, 2nd "trusted TDI" shop suggested control arm bushings and doggone bushing...as OH 1st said above and Drew said I'd be chasing my tail. In their opinion there is just a bit too much slop. I hate throwing parts at it with out a "yep, it's broken" statement...lol. But, it does fit the profile (the axles fit the profile too) so I'll update next Thurs Nov 7th......
 

MB2VW

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Jun 8, 2000
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Lighthouse Pt., FL USA
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2015 Passat SEL,
My 2015 is at 195k, mostly on smooth S Florida expressways... I too have a slight shake at 70 - 75 mph. Also I feel play when brakes are applied abruptly. I plan to do the control arm bushing, now that the weather is cooler within the next 30 days or so. Thinking of doing ball joints while I'm at it..
 
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