valve cover lining disintegrating

[sdeck]

WVO gunk in valve cover

Background: Ran WVO in a greasecar kit for 42K (from 75,000 to 117,000), had issues with coked up intake ports and valves causing low power and lots of smoke. Cause was WVO contamination of CC. Cleaned them and problem gone, but oil consumption went from 1Q/2000 miles to 1Q/800 miles. Suspected the usual coked up rings, worn/degraded valve stem seals and guides (I know, positive tubro pressure), or worn turbo seals. Been 32,000 miles since port cleaning and oil consumption has remained unchanged.

In an attempt to troubleshoot my oil consumption (1Q/800 miles past 32K) I decided to try some AutoRx to see if it could free up stuck rings. Yesterday's compression is still good 4 x 490. In the interest of science, I pulled the valve cover to inspect the cam and removed the plastic baffle to clean the metal coalescing filters.

the filters were actually pretty clean (no pics). The cam looks good to me, but I do not know what I am looking for. When I cleaned the ports, I removed the valve cover to check closure and noticed some gunk along the sealing edges. None this time.

The interior lining of the valve cover was very soft and came off when I tried to clean it with a rag. IS THIS NORMAL? I suspect not. The seal looks and feels fine. there was some crud built up in the nooks and crannies of the valve cover and I was going to clean it, but the lining coming off scared me.

If this is not normal, I suspect that the WVO contamination I had in the CC for many miles really degraded the rubber lining. If so, this is some pretty good direct evidence that WVO in the CC causes rubber seals and such to disintegrate. I have long suspected that that was the cause of my rear main seal failure aroun 20K into my WVO adventure.

please comment. Should I get a new valve cover?

 

[TDICADDGUY]

I'm not sure about the valve cover so I won't comment on that. However, the top end looks "gunky," the best way I can describe it anyway. Most TDI's are much cleaner than that on the top end. Might be related?

Could be leftover WVO gunk.

 

[andreigbs]

Good lord, that's a lot of gunky junk. I can only imagine what the tiny oil passages look like inside the head.

You have a lot more serious issues than a disintegrating VC gasket.

Thank you for posting pics of the innards from a WVO-fueled car for others to see the potential of risk. You are hereby commended for finishing your WVO experiment AND showing the results.

Now, what can be done about it? Auto-Rx is a good start; you need to follow the exact procedure though. After the cleansing cycle, run a few short oil change intervals with the diesel-rated synth oil of choice. Plan on a few 2-3K mile intervals to clean that junk out. You might consider dropping the pan and cleaning what you can reach, especially oil pick-up tube and the pan itself.

I almost don't wanna say it, but I think unless you do some high-concentration Diesel Purge to clean your injectors of junk that WVO will have deposited, you may need new injectors sooner rather than later. Hopefully things will work out and your engine can be "degreased" but it will be a long process till full and normal compression is restored; 490 ain't the greatest, especially at your mileage. I'd be shooting for 550 but that's just me.

Be careful what engine flush products you decide to use; many aren't made for turbo cars, so read your labels carefully. The safest one to use, IMO, is the Motul product here: http://www.worldimpex.com/parts/motul-engine-clean_257205.html out of stock now, but really good stuff.

Others will definitely chime in with other/better ideas, hang in there.

 

[sdeck]

I swapped injector nozzles right before bailing on WVO, so I think they are good. I have been conversing extensively with AutoRx about how to do this. They are suggesting 4000 miles with 12 oz of AutoRx using Rotella T Syn 5W40 followed by 4000 rinse w/ RTS then repeat.

BTW, it is not the gasket that is disintegrating. The gasket itself is fine, no leaks. There appears to be a rubber layer on the inside of the aluminum valve cover that is "liquifying". See the pic with the rubbed spot going thru the cross-hatch pattern. I am assuming that it is a vulcanized rubber lining. Not sure if the AutoRx will remove it. Scared it might.

The top end looks a bit "gunky, but it was much worse 30K ago when I cleaned the ports. Also, almost all of the gunk was up inside the VC, not down in the head.

Compression has been 490x4 since I bought it w/ 70K on it. Spec is only up to 520 or something like that. (ALH)

Please, any thoughts on the VC lining would be appreciated.

 

[andreigbs]

Why not just try a brand-new VC? How much can it be? I'd hate to have any of that stuff disintegrate and somehow land between a cam lobe and lifter, ya know?

 

[Dimitri16V]

hard to tell whether the WVO affected the "lining". get a new valve cover, all that loose rubber is gonna end up in the oil screen. I would drop the oil pan and clean it too. AutoRx will take long time to clean that.

 

[Franko6]

Hey Steve,

I suppose I might get flamed by one or another, but those 'cure all's' are not in my arsenal. Anything that is going to bust up that junk in the rings is going to bust up every other contaminant in the system. I can't see the advantage of putting the sludge into circulation.

Quick oil changes are nothing new to the WVO crowd. The biggest problem is that depending on oil reports leads to false readings, as the WVO spikes in the same places as good oil. The only way to see that the oil is altered is viscosity.

I've got several valve covers in good shape. Cheaper than a new one... The gasket material you speak of that is attached to the Valve Cover IS the only gasket. I would guess that the reason the gasket material is going to pieces is not the WVO, but the AutoRx. Anything strong enough to loosen the kind of deposits that make rings stick (remember what you used to clean WVO'd nozzles?!?), is going to be some VERY potent stuff.

Try that AutoRx on neoprene and see what happens after a week. What's in that stuff anyway?

Let me know if I can help. I figure I could spare a v/c.

Frank

 

[40X40]

I thought the AutoRX was dissolving the rubber part too, but you beat me to it. I also dislike the idea of putting all that gunk into circulation throughout the engine. The standard procedure is to isolate it in the filter and remove it from the engine entirely. Since it didn't get caught by the filter originally, it is plated all over the little oil passages that you cannot afford to have plugged up. Disturbing it may make matters much, much worse as it was deposited as a fine suspension and very likely may come off in chunks or flakes or even globs.

If this were my engine and I could afford the time/labor, I would disassemble it, hot tank it and put it back together with new bearings/seals/rings and such. A trip through the hot tank is the only way I know to remove ALL the stuff that needs removing.

I hope it works out well for the OP.

Bill

Hey Steve,

I suppose I might get flamed by one or another, but those 'cure all's' are not in my arsenal. Anything that is going to bust up that junk in the rings is going to bust up every other contaminant in the system. I can't see the advantage of putting the sludge into circulation.

Quick oil changes are nothing new to the WVO crowd. The biggest problem is that depending on oil reports leads to false readings, as the WVO spikes in the same places as good oil. The only way to see that the oil is altered is viscosity.

I've got several valve covers in good shape. Cheaper than a new one... The gasket material you speak of that is attached to the Valve Cover IS the only gasket. I would guess that the reason the gasket material is going to pieces is not the WVO, but the AutoRx. Anything strong enough to loosen the kind of deposits that make rings stick (remember what you used to clean WVO'd nozzles?!?), is going to be some VERY potent stuff.

Try that AutoRx on neoprene and see what happens after a week. What's in that stuff anyway?

Let me know if I can help. I figure I could spare a v/c.

Frank

 

[sdeck]

Frank, 40x40

It is definitely not the AutoRx eating up the rubber. I haven't added it yet!.
Again, the rubber lip around the edge is perfect and not soft. It is only the lining under the top of the VC that is deteriorating. Condensed WVO vapors? WVO definitely eats certain rubber.

I agree with dropping the pan and cleaning it out before the AutoRx. I just need to get the right sealant to button it back up first.

Frank, please pm me about the VC offer. I'll hold off on adding the AutoRx until I clean the pan and change the VC.

Can't afford the teardown/hot tank route.

As far as the chemistry of AutoRx, I have been researching and reading about it and oils a lot over the past few months. There are a lot of success stories out there on various forums, but no catastrophic failures I could find. Usually, it is the other way around.

I have spoken thru email and on the phone extensively with AutoRx inventor and tech experts. It works by displacing the gunk through a higher affinity for metal than the gunk. That essentially means it works very slowly as it has to kind of lever up/dissolve away from the edges. Whether it works or not, IDK, but I have been doing biochemistry for 20 years and the idea makes sense.

 

[Ski in NC]

I don't think there is any "rubber coating" inside the cam cover from the factory. I think you are referring to to some sort of gunk that condensed on the underside of the cover.

 

[DPM]

^^ agree. Looks like sludge baked-onto the inner surface.

 

[roadhard1960]

How many miles do you drive, at what speed and at what outside temp do you usually do? When I was a kid we would see nasty sludge build up when we took apart engines in Ohio. Many folks drove 5-7 miles one way and often in winter. That is a recipe for sludge if you do not change oil often. I now live in Georgia where winter might be in the upper 20's F. I usually drive 40 mile one way trips at highway speds. The oil gets good and hot which is less likely to get sludgy than driving 5 miles. Hot water temp is not hot oil temp. Back in days of old with gas engines, one shop instructor would run a quart of tranny fluid with the oil. A few oil changes to clean up an engine. Note days of old. I do not think I would try such a thing with a TDI.

On your valve gover I would get out the putty knife ands scrape that crud off. Clean it some more with some Simple Green. No need for that crud to be rinsed away by whatever rinsing system you come up with for the rest of the engine. It is the rest of the slugged engine that you should be worried about.

 

[Drivbiwire]

The inside portion of the cover is smooth cast magnesium, what you guys are looking at is a sludge formation that formed on the valve covers surface that took on the shape and form of the oil vapor recovery cannister that screws to the valve cover.

Again the issue is the WVO and the deposits, gums and varnishes that form inside ANY engine that runs this crap.

WVO/SVO = TDI Destruction.

DB

 

[oilhammer]

Looks like normal WVO sludge to me. The ring lands are probably coked up too.

I use BG's "compression restorer" to liquify the crap and have brought quite a few nearly-ruined WVO cars back to life. The stuff is powerful strong (the smell alone will knock you out) and I always use as directed and do a double oil change afterwards.

People really tend to get confused with compression readings on WVO cars. Most of the cars I see the compression goes UP due to so much gunk in the piston bowls as well as doing a super-seal job at the very tops of the pistons. But the oil return holes in the piston's oil ring lands will be so plugged up it forces oil back up the sides of the pistons...which also further increases the compression. Oil is very good at sealing the edges of the pistons. Old trick to see (on a gas engine) if low compression is rings or valves is to put a few ounces of oil in each cylinder to see if it goes up signifigantly. DO NOT TRY THAT IN A DIESEL.

In extreme cases of WVO carnage, when I have the head off, I put the BG stuff directly in each cylinder, with all 4 pistons at mid-block, and let it work itself in. I dry out anything left in there before putting the head on, and usually after smoking and coughing for a biut after starting they smooth out and a few good runs buring good 'ol #2 diesel they clean up and will actually run pretty good.

Sometimes though it is so bad that you need to remove the pistons, soak them in solvent, and rering them.

 

[sdeck]

OK, so there is no rubber lining. Confused me why there would be, but I could not figure out the grid pattern. The top of the plastic baffle looked smooth. I'll yank it again and clean it up.

I drive mainly 50 hwy miles 2x a day, 70 mph. The compression numbers have been constant since I began the WVO.

The car runs great, starts instantly, only smokes when I get on it (Sprint 520s in an auto doesn't help that). I have had the occasional odd electrical gremlin, but I don't think those are WVO-related (though some will claim they are).

As far as the WVO, there is no doubt in my mind that it is the culprit. Amazes me that the gunk is still there after >32K on dino only. Tenacious crap apparently. I went into it with my eyes open after a lot of reading, had a good filtration and installation, and tried to be diligent. Two things that were not clear when I started: more frequent oil changes are required and longer purges. Even so, i don't think I will be recommending WVO for another TDI. I had also decided to report any failures and document them as best I could, so here we are.

 

[sdeck]

Cleaned up VC

I cleaned the VC and plastic baffles tonight. 4 hours, half a can of Gunk engine cleaner, some brake cleaner and some carb cleaner, and a lot of elbow grease.

The sludge was seriously stuck in there. Once I got the oily stuff off, the deposits below were pretty solid. I didn't realize that whoever suggested a putty knife was serious! Lots of scraping. Best discovery of the night was that an inflation needle connected to my compressor at 100 psi really blasted the stuff out of the nooks and crannies. carbon/coke pieces flying everywhere.

some more before pics

The after

Yes, that is the same valve cover. NOt sure about the brown discolorations in the corners. Might have come off, but wasn't easy.

 

[Drivbiwire]

The brown is from the vulcanizing of the rubber gasket to the valve cover...that won't come off. Otherwise it looks good.

Now how are you going to clean the rest of the motor from the WVO carnage?

What a mess that stuff makes of an engine.

 

[sdeck]

Current plan is to drop the oil pan and clean it out, then do an AutoRx treatment. (see above). Can't afford to tear it down. I'll post pics of the pan when I get it done, hopefully this weekend.

As mentioned earlier, compression has been steady at 4x490 since I have owned the car (at 70K). I hope (yes hope) that this indicates I got out in time before serious internal damage.

I assume its possible to look at the cylinder walls with the pan dropped? (at least the bottom half)

 

[Powder Hound]

Hmmm... casting isn't smooth... not a whit of magnesium in the alloy....

 

[sdeck]

Well, bad news. Couldn't get the oil pan off. Bolt in corner above AC compressor was stripped. Tried every tool I could think of; wobble head Allen, 10mm wrenches, crow foot wrench, sockets, 10mm flare nut wrench. Stopped short of vise grips only cause there wasn't enough room for them. Drained the oil (looked fine), stuck a screwdriver in the oil pan and felt around for gunk. All I felt was bare metal. no sludgy stuff. Tightened up the few I had loosened (hope the seal is still intact) and put in 4Q Rotella T Synthetic and one bottle of AutoRx.
Good news: Pulled the side skirt and fixed it up (cracked) with black duct tape. How redneck. Pulled the hose to the intercooler and IC was practially dry, nothing dripped out. Just a thin film on bottom of IC by finger test.

I'll report back in a few thousand miles.

 

[andreigbs]

Well, bad news. Couldn't get the oil pan off. Bolt in corner above AC compressor was stripped. Tried every tool I could think of; wobble head Allen, 10mm wrenches, crow foot wrench, sockets, 10mm flare nut wrench. Stopped short of vise grips only cause there wasn't enough room for them. Drained the oil (looked fine), stuck a screwdriver in the oil pan and felt around for gunk. All I felt was bare metal. no sludgy stuff. Tightened up the few I had loosened (hope the seal is still intact) and put in 4Q Rotella T Synthetic and one bottle of AutoRx.
Good news: Pulled the side skirt and fixed it up (cracked) with black duct tape. How redneck. Pulled the hose to the intercooler and IC was practially dry, nothing dripped out. Just a thin film on bottom of IC by finger test.

I'll report back in a few thousand miles.

Irwin Bolt-out. Saved my rear once on the TB job. Best $25 I ever spent.

 

[sdeck]

Looked at that. Can't get a socket that size in there. They make a wrench version? A 6-sided 10mm box wrench might work.

 

[nicklockard]

Frank, 40x40

It is definitely not the AutoRx eating up the rubber. I haven't added it yet!.
Again, the rubber lip around the edge is perfect and not soft. It is only the lining under the top of the VC that is deteriorating. Condensed WVO vapors? WVO definitely eats certain rubber.

I believe it is WVO condensate from blow by gases.

 

[sdeck]

I believe it is WVO condensate from blow by gases.

my thoughts exactly. Less volatile WVO gasses condensing and reacting with heat and O2 = sludge->gum->coke. Same as on the intake valves 32K ago.

 

[BioDiesel]

"WVO gasses condensing"

It;s just plain unburned polymerized vegetable oil.
I got tons of it on my garage floor.

I added some VO to cc oil and heated at 350*F for 24 hours.
It jelled. Given enough time heat and oxygen it would poly. further into gum then plastic which is what you have.

 

[sdeck]

Update on Auto-Rx treatment

So I am about 1300 miles into the "cleaning" phase of the Auto-Rx treatment. 2 oz ARX /quart Rotella T 5W40 syn. oil consumption has increased from 1Q/800 miles to about 1Q/500 miles. Been adding ARX w/ the make up oil. Car runs exactly the same. No issues with starting or driving. Same black smoke on acceleration.

Current plan is to change the oil filter, pull the valve cover and inspect the valvetrain, and do a compression test at 2000 miles into the ARX cleaning.

IDK why the oil consumption went up w/ ARX.

 

[sdeck]

Now 2500 miles into the ARX treatment. Compression test was 485/485/490/495. Essentially no change. Still burning oil at 1Q/500 miles.

I also changed the oil filter and noticed that when I pull the oil filter can cap, the oil was still about halfway up the outside of the filter. I don't recall from other oil changes if this is normal, especially since I normally drain the oil first, and then remove the filter. I ran the car up to operating temp before doing the CT, but then had to leave for a few hours before changing the filter.

Anyone comment on this?

 

[Drivbiwire]

Oil consumption = Turbo seals?

 

[nicklockard]

I also changed the oil filter and noticed that when I pull the oil filter can cap, the oil was still about halfway up the outside of the filter. I don't recall from other oil changes if this is normal, especially since I normally drain the oil first, and then remove the filter. I ran the car up to operating temp before doing the CT, but then had to leave for a few hours before changing the filter.

Anyone comment on this?

Normal and by design.

 

[sdeck]

Oil consumption = Turbo seals?

Maybe. Been burning oil at a high rate (1Q/800 miles) for 35K miles since cleaning my intake ports and valves of coked up WVO. oil consumption went up with ARX so it cleaned out something that is letting more oil burn.

Turbo spools and runs fine. No noise or issues. If it is turbo seals, is there a definitive diagnostic? I have pulled the IC hose but there is only a film of oil in the bottom of the IC. I do a lot of hwy miles though.

Is no change in compression but increased consumption indicative of something other than rings? I hate to put a bunch of $ (turbo, rings, head) into something not well diagnosed.

thanks again,