upgrades before going internal?

[dieseldonato]

Hi all, just picked up a very clean 01 jetta with the alh engine. Till I had kids I was a over the road heavy duty diesel mechanic, so not new to diesels. I'm a 5.9L cummins nut and find myself a bit out of my depth with what all this little engine can take before going internal. id really like to get up around the 200hp mark, but currently im in the middle of building a new shop, so pulling the engine is gonna be out of the question for a while. the timing belt and water pump were done about 2 years ago by a vw shop,(not a dealer) they supposedly replaced the clutch as well. i wasnt told the brand, but the guy i bought it from said it was a better quality then stock. whatever that means. im basically not looking to buy twice and id really rather drive it like a turd then have to get parts a second time. so here goes. is a main girdle needed to get to the 200hp mark? i plan on head studs and possibly main studs whenever it gets pulled to put a known good clutch and a single mass flywheel. at that time the head will come off as well so i can inspect the engine and replace the head gasket. depending on what things look like i may consider changing rods, but if i can get close to 200hp and leve the stock rods alone, id be just fiine with that as well. im open to injector and turbo suggestions as well as a reputable tuner. id prefer a southbend clutch, ive worked with them a lot on different applications from pickup truck to pulling trucks and tractors. normally the guys that play with stuff have the insight as to what works best. planning on 2.5" exhaust and down pipe. i dont really know why larger would be needed for the modest hp goal i have. i mean i can take a cummins or powerstroke to 300hp before it becomes a restriction so 2.5" should be plenty for this thing.
im open to suggestions on about anything. more so want to start getting parts in and when my new shop is finished just be able to pull the car in and have at it.
thanks, sean

 

[NewTdi]

Good morning Dieselonato and welcome to the forums. From all my readings it is my understanding that up to 200WHP our engines are safe the way they are built. Anything over that could use some upgrades. I have been in the 160-170 range for a while and thinking about making the jump into the 200whp range. The reality is that I have no need for such power since most of my driving is limited to highway speeds during commute hours however it is always nice to have additional power when needed. To reach that goal a few small items will be in order:

Bigger injectors (.230-.260)
Bigger turbo - 1752-1756vkr (over 220whp)
Clutch
3 bar map
Tune
11mm pump
PD 150 TIP
PD 150 Intake
Better flowing exhaust
a better SMIC or FMIC

that's all that I can think of right now to get you where you want to be.

 

[dieseldonato]

Thanks for the information! Like you say, I don't need that much in a 3k lb car but if it can take it why not? Super stoked to begin working on this little thing. Question with the pd150 intake, I was reading a thing that said the brm was the better choice? Are they made of unobtanium or just nit really needed over the pd150?

 

[Moparmax]

I’m here learning as well, I have a similar build in mind. They way I understand it the bottom end is safe to ~200~ depending on the tune. Just like any other engine a crappy tune can and will break stuff before HP will. Weak link seems to be stock rods.
I’m planning on .260 injectors and probably an 1856 turbo in the 25-30psi area.

 

[NewTdi]

I’m here learning as well, I have a similar build in mind. They way I understand it the bottom end is safe to ~200~ depending on the tune. Just like any other engine a crappy tune can and will break stuff before HP will. Weak link seems to be stock rods.
I’m planning on .260 injectors and probably an 1856 turbo in the 25-30psi area.

30psi is a lot of fun

 

[dieseldonato]

Picked the car up Monday evening. Nice car, needs some tlc. Already have a pile of parts ordered for it. Injectors and turbo if I can swing them will be next month. Been on contact with burpod, cool guy. I'll be using him for my tuning needs. Id add a few pictures but for whatever reason I don't have an attachment button in the reply box.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

My experience would say that you can get close to 200 WHP, but perhaps not all the way there, without damaging internals. Bending rods is the big risk. My .02 would be to be careful not to overfuel, as that can bend rods. I'm out of touch when it comes to what turbo upgrades are best, but I'm sure folks here will have advice.

 

[dieseldonato]

My experience would say that you can get close to 200 WHP, but perhaps not all the way there, without damaging internals. Bending rods is the big risk. My .02 would be to be careful not to overfuel, as that can bend rods. I'm out of touch when it comes to what turbo upgrades are best, but I'm sure folks here will have advice.

Thanks, yeah going to err on the safe side, at least till the shop is finished. So far I've been lead to believe I should be able to limit max power with the tuning. Just need to get a feel for what is safe, so this is good information. Thank you.

 

[dieseldonato]

Another question, is there any need for the addition of a lift pump? This is one of the few diesels with this style pump that doesn't seem to have one. Always ran a low pressure air dog set up on the first gen cummins. If memory serves 18 to 20 psi was the limit before risking pushing the front seal out of the pump, I believe the same applied to the vp44 injection pump used In the 24 valve engines. Figured since this is the same style pump, just the 4 cylinder version it would become nessisary at some point?

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I believe the lift pump helps. I know that when my car was extensively modified (it isn't now) there were situations where the pump could not deliver all the requested fuel. But that was on a car that was run on the track with a 6000 RPM redline tune. I don't know if you'll encounter that situation on the street.

Regardless, I really like having lift pumps in these cars. Starting is instant, it may prolong pump life, and it makes fuel filter changes easier. I suspect you'll be running a 10mm pump (since 11mms are crazy money these days) and in that case the lift pump may be more helpful.

 

[dieseldonato]

I believe the lift pump helps. I know that when my car was extensively modified (it isn't now) there were situations where the pump could not deliver all the requested fuel. But that was on a car that was run on the track with a 6000 RPM redline tune. I don't know if you'll encounter that situation on the street.

Regardless, I really like having lift pumps in these cars. Starting is instant, it may prolong pump life, and it makes fuel filter changes easier. I suspect you'll be running a 10mm pump (since 11mms are crazy money these days) and in that case the lift pump may be more helpful.

Ok, that will be simple enough and kinda verifies what I know to work on other engines with similar pumps.

 

[burpod]

the best thing about the lift pump is basically guaranteeing you don't have any air bubbles in the system. the injection pump creates a huge amount of suction, and it sucks more the higher the rpm (and it will find the slightest leak, and sucks in air rather than leaking fuel out). if you don't have a clear fuel supply line, you'll never know if you have air bubbles unless there are a ton and causes obvious problems. i'd put an OEM bew lift pump in any tdi i drove. you can wiring it up nice and simple, withiout hacking, like factory, it's not that hard. best to do with some new terminal ends + $30 crimpers, add in a relay to the relay panel and a fuse to the fusebox...

litte story that shows just how much suction the pump creates. road trip in my mk1 tdi.. on the way home, noticed a rattling from the rear. thought it was my rear struts again (had issues with it before, some bushings/mounts not right). on a closer motel parking lot inspection i noticed the fuel tank was loose on the straps - not because straps were loose, but the (metal) tank had collapsed inward! somehow the tank vent line got clogged up. opened the gas cap and there was a huge amount of vacuum in there. i had noticed for a good bit that engine seemed a bit "strained" and lower on power. the injection pump literally imploded the fuel tank....

 

[dieseldonato]

That's why I was wondering, in pickup truck diesel world darn near everything has a lift pump, and when mods start happening aftermarket lift pumps get installed. Good I have a source for the 11mm pump, and a fuel pump/harness from a member here.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

This is the only hard part: Finding the correct fuse cover.

Off a '99.5 GLX only.

 

[burpod]

i add in a little mini 10amp fuse into an empty slot in the main fuse box, add a relay to the relay panel (need a base). 86 of relay goes to single wire with ring terminal to IP shutoff solenoid. 85 to ground. get 30 power from big main 30 stud in driver footwell, and 87 just goes back to the pump

 

[dieseldonato]

That should be pretty straight forward. Another member offered up an 11mm injection pump and a fuel pump with harness. Should all be pretty straight forward from what you guys are saying.

 

[NewTdi]

Another member offered up an 11mm injection pump and a fuel pump with harness. Should all be pretty straight forward from what you guys are saying.

You should have those delivered by Wednesday!

 

[ducesrwld]

to the OP i've been in the 200whp club it was fun but wayyyy too much money esp when compared to hp per dollar spent on a big rig. if i did it all over again i'd keep it simple clutch, tune, gauges and call it a day. 150 hp diesel is a fun little daily as well. my 500 pony dmax is where i spend the dough now.

if anyone is looking for a good 200 whp power plant i may be parting ways with my brm parked in the driveway she needs some work.

i'm now back in the same boat of the OP bare bones 90 hp alh holy smokes is she slow.

 

[dieseldonato]

to the OP i've been in the 200whp club it was fun but wayyyy too much money esp when compared to hp per dollar spent on a big rig. if i did it all over again i'd keep it simple clutch, tune, gauges and call it a day. 150 hp diesel is a fun little daily as well. my 500 pony dmax is where i spend the dough now.

if anyone is looking for a good 200 whp power plant i may be parting ways with my brm parked in the driveway she needs some work.

i'm now back in the same boat of the OP bare bones 90 hp alh holy smokes is she slow.

Yeah this is a "cheap" project for me. The ole 12 valve is the money hungry power maker, but being in a 79 f350 on 37" super swampers its not real friendly to get the kids in and out of.

New item by S D

photos.app.goo.gl

Hp at this point is unknown, 13mm industrial injection dragon flow pump,5k gov springs, fire ring head/block, head& main studs, main girdle, stage 3 (big stick) Colt cam, 6x.018 thinned needles, and edge filter deleted injectors, s300g under a s476. Balanced rotating assembly... the list goes on. Hard to keep a transmission behind it, busted the nv4500 a few times. Second gear synchro is out of it again. Built it right before we got married and had kids, then it turned into just my cool old truck that didn't fit a baby seat.

 

[dieseldonato]

Guess I should add everything from @NewTdi showed up today. He said the pump will need resealed and gone over, so I put a call into one of my buddies that still works at the machine shop. I'm sure the pump guy will lend me a hand with it. The fuel pump and harness should make for a pretty easy install. Just need to get injectors and a turbo yet. (should be next month for xman to get injectors back in stock.) Exhaust is all here, just need to fab it up from the down pipe back. Looks like that should be pretty easy to do. Hopefully I'll get time to stick it up on the lift at my uncles shop for that. Can't wait till mine is done....

 

[PakProtector]

If one believes the lore posted, the BRM intake flows better. It takes little shopping to find one for $50 instead of more like 3x that number. Even Cummins nuts don't just waste money for nothing...LOL making the BRM a racepipe is easy; the three bolts are evenly spaced on an 84mm bolt circle...so some 2" al tube, some 3/8" plate and remove the parts that do not look like a proper flange.

I will disagree on internals not being needed. At 150 hp stock, the ARL variant got a larger turbo, more boost, lower compression, improved cooling on the better pistons, and larger connecting rod journals. heavier rods too...so take that 'not needed' as low resolution statistical sampling. You're talking 600 hp equivalent to the 5.9...and IIRC it takes a bit to do that w/o water/meth and nitrous in the pre-common rail era.

If you're going to turn it up that far, you will need to upgrade your clutch.

cheers,
Douglas

 

[dieseldonato]

If one believes the lore posted, the BRM intake flows better. It takes little shopping to find one for $50 instead of more like 3x that number. Even Cummins nuts don't just waste money for nothing...LOL making the BRM a racepipe is easy; the three bolts are evenly spaced on an 84mm bolt circle...so some 2" al tube, some 3/8" plate and remove the parts that do not look like a proper flange.

I will disagree on internals not being needed. At 150 hp stock, the ARL variant got a larger turbo, more boost, lower compression, improved cooling on the better pistons, and larger connecting rod journals. heavier rods too...so take that 'not needed' as low resolution statistical sampling. You're talking 600 hp equivalent to the 5.9...and IIRC it takes a bit to do that w/o water/meth and nitrous in the pre-common rail era.

If you're going to turn it up that far, you will need to upgrade your clutch.

cheers,
Douglas

I'm not real up with what can and can't be done with these alh or any tdi for that matter. Lat vw diesel i owned was an 86 precup engine. Cummins I know pretty well on the other hand. Lol. No water method or nitrous is needed to hit 600hp with a p7100 and proper turbos.
I digress, what I'm after is more then what it's got, till my shop is finished then I'll start on whatever internal/hybrid type fun things. Till then whatever I can safely get out of it is what I'd like. Supposedly the clutch is it is an upgrade of some sort. I got the number of the place that did the clutch and timing belt so I'll find out what exactly they put in it. The coworker I bought it from said he wished they put a stock clutch back in it as the pedal was a harder to push after the new clutch went in.

 

[dieseldonato]

So forgot to say, I'm thankful for everyone's input with this, I know aht I know and know there's a lot I don't know. This light duty stuff isn't my normal cup of tea.
Anyway back to the other stuff. The pd150 intake showed up today from xman. Another item checked off the list. Played with vcdss a little bit today. Checked out the tdi timing graph, and it seems I'm pretty close to the middle where it should be. The injector iq was all pretty even too. So that looked promising. I'll have to figure out how to log so I can have a base line reading to refer to when I have issues. Quite excited for this to take shape.