Upgrade Borg Warner Tubo Charge or another option?

[tdiblair]

My 2005 Passat TDI threw a code which said Relay to turbo.
New Relay put in and the car still has no power.
On closer look it's the waste gate not opening on the 12 year old turbo with just 67,000 miles on it.

I'm told Borg Warner has an upgrade to my original with 1 lb more boost and a faster spool up due to a better designed waste gate and that the new VW's are using Borg Warner now. Don't know how true.

Just wanted to hear your thoughts or other options available

Blair

 

[thundershorts]

I've been chasing down similar problem, low power. Have you checked to make sure vnt rod is free and has full travel, checked for vacuum leaks? my problem is that the n75 1K0 906 627E is intermittent and I'm replacing it. Your turbo does not have a waste gate. n75 valves seem to be much more common failure than turbos and I'd forget about the BW turbo.

 

[tdiblair]

I've been chasing down similar problem, low power. Have you checked to make sure vnt rod is free and has full travel, checked for vacuum leaks? my problem is that the n75 1K0 906 627E is intermittent and I'm replacing it. Your turbo does not have a waste gate. n75 valves seem to be much more common failure than turbos and I'd forget about the BW turbo.

Thundershorts, so I can pass on your knowledge, which has always been good over the years, can you describe to me the function of the VNT Rod and the N-75 which I assume is a relay? I assume VNT rods can be replaced but does a new Turbo come with a new VNT Rod? Back at the shop of Friday, his computer found a relay to the Turbo that was the problem. That relay was replaced but the problem still existed after a short drive. That relay, not sure if the N-75, was replaced - car worked great for a while but went into Limp a couple of times. Only turning the car off and restarting it - reboots - the car out of Lime Mode until the next limp mode event.
Unfortunately, my mechanic said the waste gate was not opening and I was charged $300 for a new waste gate as a separate item. I'm wondering if the Turbo is 1 separate item and the 'waste gate' an appendage that is not part of the Turbo , but an item that is separate from the Turbo, but helps to allow the Turbo to function?

For what it's worth. On my 2001 Jetta TDI, had this same issue. Bosch had put out many MAF Sensors that year on many makes of cars. The dealer could never find the issue on their equiptment. Eventually Bosch discovered the problem with a large batch of MAF Sensors made that year. I now wonder and the mystery limp mode events went away. My 2005 Passate is a fairly close generation , MAF wise, to a 2002 Jetta TDI. I wonder if the Passat TDI Vintage 2005 has the same issue as my Jetta MAF Sensor from 2001 or the inability to find a bad MAF Sensor with the software used for finding electronic issues? Next I wonder if iT was the probem with the car's wiring configuration that hide the faulty MAF Sensor or the soft ware used to diagnois problems just doesn't not have the ability when it comes to MAF Sensors? A difficult question, but a guess coming from you, would be of value to me.

Blair

 

[tdiblair]

ThunderShorts,

To save you time, I discovered what a VNT does on YouTube , thanks to you. I will ask the mechanic to check. I did not see a good YouTube on the N-75 but it seems to be a vacuum or electronic switch that does something to the Turbo. Could not tell from the diagram if I was looking at Vacuum Lines or Electrical wires but I'm guessing vacuum. I'm guessing an on off switch related to the Turbo?

The mechanic put on a new Turbo Charger which I OK-ed after being told it was an upgrade with 1 lb more boost and a better ' waste gate' that allowed for faster spool up. In fairness to him, he used the term ' Waste Gate' but maybe he really meant to say VNT or Variable Nozzle Turbo and used the term Waste Gate out of habit. I seem to remember my original Turbo having variable veins too and if so I have to hope the newer designed VNT is an improvement over the original Turbo.

Unfortunately he charged me $300 for a new Waste Gate and it looks like the VNT is part of a new turbo since it's inside the turbo housing. So even if he said ' Waste Gate" out of habit and really meant VNT, I don't see how a new Turbo in a box would have the VNT as a separate item for invoice since the VNT ring and veins seem assembled inside the Turbo housing at the factory. I just want to make sure about this before I bring up the $300 , extra, charge for a waste gate.

Again, he did not push or tell me I needed a New Turbo, but that the upgrade was nice and I do feel the difference in power. I hope he is just incorrectly using the term Waste Gate, out of habit, instead of saying ' VNT . '

So I think you narrowed the down the Limp Mode trouble spots and I thank you once again. This is probably the 5 time you bailed my a** out of a problem.

The question now is my Invoice with that $ 300 for a Waste Gate. In your opinion, am I correct to assume a new Turbo Charger comes with a VNT since a see a ring and veins inside the turbo housing?

I would like to find a diplomatic way of saying - this 2005 Passat TDI does not have a Waste Gate and uses a VNT instead. I think your back office confused my invoice with another customer's VW, older, diesel since waste gates don't exist on 2005 Passat TDI. He has always been good to me in the past, I just hope this is an honest screw up unless you see it as a something else. After looking at a VNT , a VNT can not come as an ' extra' item but as part of a new Turbo Charger and inside the housing.

In fairness, I was NOT told I needed a new Turbo , but that I would like the upgrade. I do feel the power and it is I who after driving the same car for 12 years wanted to add a little excitement to my ride.

At this point, since I have a new Turbo Charger, I'm thinking I have a new VNT too and taking that off the list of problems , for now.

So I will ask him to check the VNT Pin for play inside where it attaches to the VNT ring - next the Control Rod and it's adjustment - next the Stop Screw's adjustment for the Control Rod - next the Acuator that the control rod gets pushed/pulled by - Next the Vacuum Line and finally the N-75 Relay and tomorrow I will try to figure out what an N-75 relay does.

Once again, Thundershorts, I thank you and I'm relieved you are still on this forum as my 2005 Passats are getting older, but still have low mileage.

Blair

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

A Garrett VNT-17 was OE on your Passat, not Borg-Warner.

 

[vwztips]

FWIW, I work a lot between the 1.8t, 2.0TDI and even the 2.7t V6 and do use waste gate more often when talking to folks about issues with turbos. The 1.8t and 2.7t's have waste gates and as you now know the BHW has a VNT. Sometimes I say waste gate out of habit and sometimes it is just easier to explain than the VNT setup to the uninitiated when their eyes start glazing over when I get into the technical side of it.

 

[tdiblair]

Well, I think you pointed me in the right direction to trouble shoot the Limp Mode. As usual , you have saved me before with your knowledge.

He ended up putting a Mahle Turbo on my car. The Borg Warner , he said, looked like someone dropped it and didn't want to risk it. I did not get a call on the switch from Borg Warner to Mahle. I hope Mahle meets the same same spec as the Borg with the extra 1 pound of boost and faster spool up VNT and hope Mahle is as good as Borg Warner?

It does seem to lag in the begging and then come on all at once , but when it comes on it has more power than my original. So I think the Control Rod coming off the Actuator is slightly out of adjustment. I expected the boost to start sooner vs. what seems more abrubtly. I actually get a slight push back in the seat when it does and see a slight lift up in the front end of the car. I like the subtle increase in boost but seems late and too abrubt.

So I will suggest the following:

1 Check Contol Rod Adjustment
2 Check N-75 Relay
3 Check Control Rod Stop position
4 Check Actuator that is moving the Control Rod
5 Check for play in the Control Rod's Lever Pin - where it fits into the hole of the VNT Control Ring. I'm guessing my lever Arm and Pin are original and that pin at the end of the Lever might have worn and has slop?
6 Check Vacuum Line to Actuator

As to the $300 extra charge over the New Turbo Cost for a ' Waste Gate' even though he meant VNT? I'm assuming a VNT is included with the New Turbo Charger since a VNT is inside the Turbo Housing and that extra $300 bill is not applicable. Would you say I'm correct there? If so I'll find a diplomatic way of saying -' billing must of confused my invoice with another.' I just want to make sure that when you buy a new Turbo Charger - that it is sold with the VNT as part of the price of a new Turbo and not an add on piece of equiptment. Seems logical since the Turbo Housing has to be taken apart to see the VNT.

As to the New Turbo Charger being a Mahle and not a Borg Warner ( as intended) any opinions on Mahle vs Borg Warner Turbo Chargers?

Again ThunderShorts, thanks for the road map to get me to this point.

Blair

 

[tdiblair]

Called the Mechanic, seems Mahle and Borg Warner, one company bought the other -so for anyone who cares - Mahle and Borg-Warner Turbo's are the same.

Blair

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

No, they're not. Separate companies. Mahle makes a good turbo. I'm not aware of a B-W that will fit your car.

 

[tdiblair]

Indigo Blue,

You seem to be right. So far on the Web I can't find any buy out between BorgWarner and Mahler than something that seemed - un-Turbocharger related purchase.

At this point I'm guessing he knew there was an upgraded Turbo and got the name wrong again. Like using VNT vs. Waste Gate. Apparently a lot of oil went past the original ceramic seal in the old turbo and ended up in the intercooler tube? It says in the directions from Mahle, I'm suppose to have new motor oil in the car for the new Turbo. I don't see that on the invoice, but I'll do that tonight.


For those thinking of a new Mahle upgrade. I have 2 of these 2005 Passat diesel.
Both the older turbos come on earlier , from low rpm spool up. This Mahle does not.
When the Mahle does finally kick in it is noticeably more and sudden, almost coffee spilling sudden. I even notice a slightly lift up of the front of the car which I never noticed before. Yes, a noticeable increase of power. Not overwhelming, but you know it's more. More noticeable on winding hilly roads than on big flat Interstates. I just wish the band width of spool up power was wider.

I asked if the Control Rod that moves back and forth from the Actuator was adjusted right. That an out of adjusted Control Rod can make the ECU to read things outside it's Min / Max setting and be the cause of the occasional Limp Mode & sudden surge of the new Turbo. He said the Control Rod comes Lock-Tighted from the factory and those settings are set by the factory. I have no clue how true.

In fairness to Mahle, there is still something causing occasional Limp Mode which might be causing the narrower but sudden rush of power. So when the Limp Mode events come to an end I'll report back on my final decision of the Mahle Up-Graded Turbo. Mysteries on Limp Mode are not fun when pulling out onto highways.

Blair

The N-75 Relay Thunder Shorts mentioned I'm assuming the shops test equiptment would pick up if failing, again I dunno. I did have him test the car with his equiptment while in limp mode. It did show a faulty Relay to the Turbo, but at this time. That Relay was replaced, but I dunno if it was the N-75 at this time.

 

[tikal]

I am curious if at the same time you got the code your turbo made any kind of unusual whine or whistle sound as accelerate?

My 2005 Passat TDI threw a code which said Relay to turbo.
New Relay put in and the car still has no power.
On closer look it's the waste gate not opening on the 12 year old turbo with just 67,000 miles on it.

I'm told Borg Warner has an upgrade to my original with 1 lb more boost and a faster spool up due to a better designed waste gate and that the new VW's are using Borg Warner now. Don't know how true.

Just wanted to hear your thoughts or other options available

Blair

 

[tdiblair]

I am curious if at the same time you got the code your turbo made any kind of unusual whine or whistle sound as accelerate?

Tilal,

In case you have a similar issue, these are the event I've had.

The Turbo has under 70,000 miles on it. He, initially did not change it out - nor try to talk me into a new turbo. He just found a relay related to the turbo that pulled up as bad on his equipment. I don't know which relay and that seemed to be the end of the issue. As I drove away , it went into Limp 5 minutes later. No light came on my dash this time but I had only driven the car 10 minutes at this point as I headed back to the garage. Dunno if the light need more time to appear? Before, with the OLD turbo, a light came on and at one time it went from a orange lighted symbol for ' engine' to briefly " Emission _______" I can't remember the other word or words - just the first word " Emission."

Since the NEW turbo - " Emission " code has never appeared again - even after the Relay was replaced and , again, the New Turbo. To beclear- the car's dash never shows the Orange Engine Light , on the dash - even during 2 Limp Mode events with the new relay and turbo. That's new as I try to crawl onto the interstate with horns blowing off my back bumper. I can't figure that one out unless these warning lights need far more time, like a day , to get their signal to warn me on the dash. Would that me a bad ECM?

I drove the car back to the mechanic with the car running in Limp Mode so he could see what his equipment would find as the fault. If you turn the car off it re-boots out of Limp, for a while. That period it remains out of Limp could be hours.

His equipment still found the new Relay as the fault. His assumption, " Maybe that new Relay is bad. "

He called later and said on further investigation we found the ' Waste Gate" is not working on your old Turbo. I believe just his choice of words on ' Waste Gate' when he really meant to say VNT. As ThunderShorts pointed out - these cars have VNT and not Waste Gates. Not a big deal to me, I assume just the word he wanted to use to try to make me understand. 3 days ago I had no clue what a VNT was.

in the test drive I took with the mechanic, he mentioned there is an upgrade in the Turbo which is nice. I elected for the upgraded Turbo.

My original Turbo he gave back and said all it really needs is a " waste gate" instead of VNT.

Today he said there was excess oil in a tube. I believe he said the Intercooler Tube which was caused by a faulty ceramic seal. I assume that ceramic seal is a cheap seal on the old turbo - so if I resurrect it, I'll be getting a new VNT and Ceramic Seal. To be fair to the mechanic, it was I who was attracted to a faster spooling and increase in power and wanted the up-grade.

My old Turbo ran on Pentosine 5W-40 / 505.05 and I stayed off the gas to keep it's Rev's down as I approached my destination 85% of the time and kept the car running , before shut off, NOT the full 1.5 minutes they wanted to keep the turbo spinning in a flow of oil from the pump. I give it about 1 min to spool down before I turned the key off and starved the Turbo from a flow of oil.

I would say I'm above average in treating the car right. I was a little surprised my old Turbo gave me any trouble at under 70K in mileage.

At this point, the Limp Mode - after - New Turbo and after new Relay and NO orange warning light coming up on the Dash is still a mystery.

Blair

 

[BleachedBora]

On the BHW Borg Warner makes turbos for Mahle. I order direct from Mahle - they sometimes come in Borg Warner boxes and sometimes in Mahle boxes.

This only applies to the BHW. ALH turbos are made in Canada by Bosch under license from Mahle....

Borg/Mahle and Garrett all seem to be pretty reliable on a BHW.

-BB

 

[tdiblair]

On the BHW Borg Warner makes turbos for Mahle. I order direct from Mahle - they sometimes come in Borg Warner boxes and sometimes in Mahle boxes.

This only applies to the BHW. ALH turbos are made in Canada by Bosch under license from Mahle....

Borg/Mahle and Garrett all seem to be pretty reliable on a BHW.

-BB

BB

Thanks for that info. A relieve for me since, now, I know the same upgrade I spec I originally wanted, is in the car -just in a Mahle box.

I will soon be ordering a Deluxe Timing belt Kit from you when I track down Jason Diagnardi to install it and headed for a Delete Kit too. I'm also thinking of get (OM) VW Motor Mounts over the OEM motor mounts. An old rumor that , VW, upgraded the original motor mounts (less leaks) and this upgrade might not be out there in the OEM - at the time of the OM's new issue of mounts. Again, old rumor, only heard it once, and by now I'd assume everyone caught up by today. I ' sorta' felt OEM copied the spec's of OM but, that OEM is not the exact MFG supplying to VW. Is it worth going VW ( OM) in this case and can I also order OM motor mounts from you?

Again, thanks for clearing up the Borg Warner / Mahle debate.

Blair

 

[thundershorts]

Blair, you might want to send your old turbo up the road to Old Saybrook, Eriksson is very good on Garret. They can tell you what occurred with it and recondition it for you. Its actually possible that its just gunked up with carbon. You may decide to keep it as a spare, sell it, or put it back on your car to get the power band you like.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Aaron, that's interesting about the Mahle VNT-17s. Didn't know that. And OP, the Mahle turbo should perform like a new Garrett if installed and set up correctly. Jason can help you with that when you see him.

 

[tdiblair]

ThunderShorts,

I actually met Wally Eriksson, years ago, when he was with SAAB and teaching how to rebuild trannys. I'm not sure he's still there. Good to know they do Turbo's too....I did not know that. Thanks

I do notice the power band is shorter, but when it comes on it's noticeable. Even if it stays with a narrowef band i'm not sure, but I think I like the power, but in my mind it should have been wider.

Maybe the lower end spool up will improve with mileage too.

My hope is the limp mode issue might be effecting the Actuator on that control rod that eventually rotates the VNT could be causing the narrow band and if that issue is ever found- this Mahle Turbo gets a wider band.

My next hope is a small adjustment on the Control Rod will change it too....but...Mechanic said Borg/Mahle lock-tite the nuts on that rod - as in factory set. I don't sense he want to go there.

What is nuts to me now is I occasionally go into Limp with no warning light on the dash. Dunno why that happens.

Can you tell me what the N-75 Relay does?

Blair

 

[tikal]

Thanks Blair for your detailed explanation on post # 12. I deduce that yours does not make any kind of whistle/whine sound like mine:

https://youtu.be/g7lYAfmjyHc

A local VW shop tried to fix it by installing a new N75 with additional vag com monitoring and test drives. The computer monitoring showed no boost leaks and no hidden fault codes. The car responds well at WOT and there is no unusual black smoke on rapid acceleration. During this install the mechanic showed me that the turbo shaft has no play and it rotates freely and there is no excessive oil accumulation in the area. Unfortunately the sound has not gone away and I am not comfortable for the long ride so I have made an appointment to take the car to my TDI specialist in Austin next week to be diagnosed.

I hope your turbo issues get sorted out.

 

[tdiblair]

TKAL

I resolved the situation. I told the mechanic that years ago on my 2001 Jetta TDI - when new it would go into Limp Mode often. Dealer and VWNA TEC never found the problem on their equipment. VWNA bought back my 2001 and sold me a 2002 at MSRP difference. Many months later Bosch announced they had made bad MAF Sensors and they were in many cars other than VW's. The software at the dealer never detected the bad MAF. I assumed after 12 years the software the mechanics use today would be improved. I assumed wrong - which I do often.

So my upgraded Borg Warner did not spool up upon initial acceleration then came on hard at about 3200 rpm - and to me it seemed like it had a lot more boost than original and I said to myself, I don't like the lag but I like this surge I get later - but if it were me I'd widen or design the power curve wider and less abrupt.

I asked the mechanic if the Control Bar coming off the actuator and going to the Control Bar Lever and then to the VNT was adjusted? He said comes Lock-Tited and set at factory and all that is new. That settled that.

I still felt something seemed wrong , with the way the Upgraded Turbo worked and of course the occasional Limp Mode.

The new event now, or as 2 days ago, Limp Mode came on and I got "NO" Orange Engine Warning Light that increased the mystery even further for my mechanical mind which barely covers lawn mower & bicycle repair.

The mechanic decided to go with his test equipment which showed zero MAF Sensor issues.

I felt the MAF might be causing the initial lag and then abrupt spool up.

When I got home I took the MAF out and cleaned it. I could not find a resistor on the original Bosch MAF that I see on others. I could not find a Thermister Wire either that I see on other MAF's but I did see some contacts in the area the Thermister Wire would go - but no spot weld or broken solder on those contacts. I initially thought, the wire must have vibrated off, the mystery is over. Then I saw Bosch has redesigned these MAF many times from resistors to thermistor wires to , I believe, a thin membrane for its sensor. So maybe the factory CNC machine just kept those contacts on during manufacturing, but put the sensor somewhere else? Maybe my MAF measures in a way I don't know? So I simply cleaned it before I bought another for $127 to give it a try. I should have tested it with a Multi-meter but didn't know what two wires to use for the test.

On a long drive last night - no limp mode (yet) BUT the new upgraded Borg Turbo works normally with a wide power spool up and the hesitation is gone. It's perfect.

Just posting this so others will note how software hidden MAF issues still remain, even since 2001 where it was easier for VWAG to swap my mystery 2001 diesel for a new 2002.

Finally, to those thinking of the upgraded Borg Warner Turbo. Yes it works perfectly now-wide power band like the original 2005 Garrett.

As to the extra 1 lb of boost and the ' quicker spool up ' ..... can I feel all that now? I can not. What fooled me before was the ' sudden', but late, burst of power from a dirty MAF sensor.

For others thinking of upgraded Borg Warner Turbo, it's not worth the money in my opinion - unless Borg is better built than Garrett and I have no clue on that. I did have a leaky ceramic seal and my waste gate or VNT was not working well at 68,000 miles and my car runs on Easter Oil and gets cooled down before I shut the engine off. A small failure but I was expecting more miles before an issue. Just get your old one rebuilt, but for me the labor charge to get a turbo in and out + rebuild narrowed the margin of cost close enough where I was intreaged with the - 1 lb more boost, the word ' upgrade' and a faster spool up. If you can feel it, it's all in your head if you have a properly working MAF.

I'm not willing to declare victory until I go a week with no Limp Mode. If I get it again, I'm going for a new MAF since his equiptment keeps showing the turbo relay he has replaced only once.

As to your question about Whin or Whistel - no - I never heard that. My original turbo was normal except of the leaky ceramic seal and to use the wrong term broken ' waste gate.' Let's say falty VNT which could have been the VNT wheel to play between the VNT to the Control arm lever which goes back to the Control Rod which goes back to the Actuator which goes back to a Vacuum Line which goes back to the N-75 realy ( I think) I forgot to ask , but I'm guessing it was that wheel that turns or the VNT Wheel.

I think my final mystery , now, is this. On a 2005 Bosch MAF sensor - shouldn't I see a resistor or a thin 1" long thermister wire?? I find neither on my original , but the car works normally , for now.

Blair

 

[50harleyrider]

I'd take my BV43A any day over an 'upgraded' Borg Warner. The oe BHW turbo was ghastly crap so an upgrade maybe would just be crap. Stop by and drive mine if you ever travel south.

 

[tdiblair]

50 hARLEYRIDER

i'll look into your BV434 on my other Passat TDI.
Any more details on it and why you like it more?
Tried Google-ing BV434 - nothing came up.
Who is the manufacturer and do you remember the pressure it builds up to ?

Blair

 

[tdiblair]

Final solution to my Limp Mode which started to happen with no Cell coming on in the Dash. It was not the MAF sensor. The vibration from the engine worn down the connection off the Vacuum Pump where the tube goes. This vacuum loss did not show up at idle but at higher RPM's. The end of the nub coming off the Vacuum Pump to the vac hose was egg shaped at the end. New Vacuum pump solved it all. To stop this engine rocking and wear at the connector from happening again at 67,000 miles a relief line is now in place to slow down this wear.

Blair

 

[tdiblair]

Turns out , I spoke too soon. The new vacuum pump and hoses, which were in need of repair - my brakes for one are better - and this appeared to be the cause of the occasional limp mode was not the ' total ' solution.

I've gone into Limp Mode 4 times now with no Engine Warning Light showing up on my dash. So the mystery continues.

Blair

 

[thundershorts]

Perhaps driving it with vcds connected graphing boost might give a better idea.

 

[50harleyrider]

50 hARLEYRIDER

i'll look into your BV434 on my other Passat TDI.
Any more details on it and why you like it more?
Tried Google-ing BV434 - nothing came up.
Who is the manufacturer and do you remember the pressure it builds up to ?

Blair

Trust me it and a stage 2+ tune by Tdtuning will get some big smiles out of you. Just tell Mike you want the same modified stage 2 tune he did for me. I haven't had a limp episode since he refined the stage 2 for my BV43A. It's basically a VNT 17/22 so 2 bar sustained isn't a problem although I haven't measured EGT nor nailed it for long periods. BTW, It's a KKK and BV43A not BV434. I didn't even have to mess with the PD injectors either. Just remember, your dealing with total anemia with the oe Garrett which is just a slightly better VNT 15. And as with most properly thought out mods, fuel mileage hardly suffers at all!