Updated Oil Change Intervals

[MrCypherr]

Would thin oil and issues with valve seals have any relation? Curious to see how the 0w20 plays out in these chain engines, but with the 2.0T found in the newer tiguans having some issues with valve seals, I'm wondering if thin oil has a play in this in any way.

 

[oilhammer]

Well without a doubt a thinner oil will be easier able to find its way past things like valve stem seals and piston rings. No surprise there. And that's why we saw a very stark contrast with older engines that were originally designed to use 10w30 or 5w30 that later had the manufacturers spec a 5w20. Examples of this would be Chrysler's 3.3L/3.8L pushrod V6s (1989), Ford's Vulcan 3.0L V6 (1986), Ford's Modular V8/V10 (1991).

And yes, I'm somewhat shocked that some manufacturers that have had a well-known issue with oil consumption would push for even thinner oils in an otherwise unchanged engine. But, if you look into it,. they all cover their collective asses by having a VERY liberal oil consumption acceptability that is often so much so that there would never even need be a reason to "change" the oil, because you'd be consistently pouring [new] oil into the engine anyway. If the 'acceptable" amount is up to 0.5 quarts per 600 miles, or 0.5 liters per 1000 km, and your service interval is 10k miles or 16k km, and the engine only holds 4.5L, then do the math.

 

[MrCypherr]

Yeah the oil consumption is a little on the high side considering i've heard people complain that they are burning too much oil. Well, technicially No in the eyes of some people but yes if you're looking at it as a whole. I switched back to 5w30 in my TDI because even though I didnt notice anything burning or 'leaking' past just yet, I didnt want to take any chances using 0w30 considering it is high mileage.

I think everything across the board for a certain manufacturer is 0w20/30.

 

[oilhammer]

Some are still 5w30... Ford's Godzilla engines, for example. The Ram HD gassers spec 0w40. But if you notice, they are all GVWR 8500+, don't have to meet the same emissions and economy standards. The half-ton Ram's gas V8 specs 5w20. And Ford's Transit standard engine not only switched from 5w20 to 5w30, but they went from a 6.5 quart capacity to a whopping 12 quart capacity. So I think some folks in certain areas are getting the message that there is such a thing as too thin of a motor oil in certain applications.

 

[TomJD]

So will the Godzilla last longer because of its simpler pushrod design? Or because it’s using a thicker oil? Or both, of course.

 

[oilhammer]

It'll almost certainly long term be tougher than the engine it replaced, the 3v 6.8L V-10. Too bad the 10sp slushbox they all get bolted to probably won't. Seems Ford learned what GM already knew: for big gasoline truck engines, a good ol' OHV lump of iron, port-injected, etc. is probably going to be the best all around way to go. The Godzilla is not really radically different than the 7.5L beast my '97 F250 has, and that was a design from the '60s. The only real nod to "high tech" it has is the variable cam-in-block. But my F250's pump sucking beast is bolted happily to a nice ZF 5sp manual.

 

[lemoncurd]

bought my CJAA in 2019 with 87k miles. just rolled to 244k miles, doing 10k mile interval + OE spec liqui moly oil. no issues

car has been beat. deleted at 120k ish, tuned immedietly after, bigger turbo for the last 20k+ miles.

i think the bigger issue with longer SOI is not the oil itself, but rather it gives a much more likely scenerio the owner lets the car run too low on oil, OR they just forget to change the oil after it's age has expired, (IE changing it at 2 years rather than 1)

but hey this is just my experience, peak survivorship bias.

 

[Nuje]

I'm curious, too, about the "sludge buildup" that @BleachedBora quoted in one of his posts.
If a person has a commute that is only a few miles and that's the primary use of the vehicle, they probably don't pile up 10K miles in a year (10mi/day x 360days = 3600miles). So, if they only go by the mileage and not the recommended "10K miles or 1yr", I gotta think that engine would be far more susceptible to sludge build-up....?

The Mk7 cars have both time and distance warnings of oil change due - drive a lot "oil change due in 1000km"; don't drive so much "oil change due in 30 days". Do the older cars (Mk5-6) have both as well? Or just distance-based reminders?
(And/or how many people are fine just driving forever with a flashing wrench icon in their cluster?)

 

[Rob Mayercik]

this stupid start-stop nonsense jack-hammering the timing chain tensioners 20+ times a day instead of twice

Ouch. For some reason I never thought of that. Wonder if I should be suggesting to my sister that she disable that feature on her new CRV then, to promote longevity.

At least the thing (the turbo 1.5L) still uses 5W20 like her 2014 2.0L did, so that's better than what you mentioned about Toyota. Didn't even know there was such a thing as 0w8, which sounds like it has all the viscosity of melted butter...

 

[oilhammer]

2024 CRV with the 1.5L turbo spec's 0w20 (just looked it up). So did the 2014. I think even the "high performance" Hondas now also spec 0w20 (they used to stick with 5w30 on Civic Si models when the standard Civic was 5w20 or 0w20).

And those Honda turbo engines... OMG... they warp the blocks (it'll manifest like a blown head gasket, but when you get the head off and throw a straight edge on the block.... got a 50-50 chance it'll be dished so bad it's junk).

There's videos of Honda techs stacking head gaskets as "trophies" like the Subie guys do, LOL...

 

[Rob Mayercik]

Hm. Thought her manual said 5w20, guess I misread it. Hopefully it's mainly short-trippers that have that block problem, she does something like 20 miles one way each day...

 

[Dannyboy]

Two CJAAs
One in my son's 2010 golf with just shy of 300k and my 2014 with 112k.
Both are stage two and missing some parts.
Both run PP Euro Lx 0W30. I would say zero usage on both but my son's 2010 turbo has starting to develop slight oil leak, it's original so it's had a long life.
If 0w30 can stand up to consistent intense regen heat I'm pretty sure it's fine when the engine doesn't need to do it anymore

 

[CleverUserName]

VW507 oils may not hold up to a 10k interval. I’m not at all surprised by this.

I used LM Top Tec 4200 exclusively in my 2009. I did my first oil analysis at 30k miles. The TBN was Zero, completely used up. The wear metal profile was also high.

I ran a second analysis at 7k and it was 2.0. At 2.0 the TBN is low and should be changed. All the future oil changes were done at 7-8k miles. I purchased a 20L jug of 4200 so I was stuck using it, but it didn’t perform and did not hold alkalinity well. Circulating acid oil in your engine accelerates wear and can lead to sludge and internal corrosion.

Now I use HD 10w30 or 5w40 in my 2010. It currently has Delvac ESP in the sump.

 

[LeisureDave]

Dang, I’ve been changing my alh around 5000 km, with rotella 5w40… I thought that was a bit often but reading this I could be going like double that, no?

 

[Dannyboy]

I don't speak for all 507 oils , I've used PP 0w30 since the first change and the oil health analysis says otherwise. Its at the heavy end of W30 oils and i dont live in the desert. If it wasn't for a loose oil cooler my wear metals would have be lower on previous reports.
16k kms/10k miles OCI. Sometimes the oil was changed before reaching mileage due to not driving far enough in a year

 

[turbodieseldyke]

Dang, I’ve been changing my alh around 5000 km, with rotella 5w40… I thought that was a bit often but reading this I could be going like double that, no?

Triple, too.

 

[Nuje]

Dang, I’ve been changing my alh around 5000 km, with rotella 5w40… I thought that was a bit often but reading this I could be going like double that, no?

Yeah - 10K km on your ALH would be more than frequent enough. Plenty of folk here are well past 500K km on 15K km oil changes.

 

[oilhammer]

...and that's not what this thread is about anyway. Although it does always strike me as funny that people see this (10k mile service interval) as some revelation ... the number of people that never ever read the owner's manual astounds me.

Most all vehicles sold within the last decade are either 7500 or 10k mile (or flexible, meaning they can go much longer) service intervals.

 

[MrCypherr]

I've switched over to Liqui-Moly TopTec 4200 for my last two oil changes. I plan on sending the oil in for an analysis when I do my 3rd one to see how well Liqui-moly actually is. Before that, It was Mobil 1 0w30 from the dealer. Oil changes done every 10k kms just because I do the work myself.

 

[ccorn90]

Thanks to everyone for the perspectives and to @BleachedBora for the research and recommendations. Here's what I am struggling to understand from your notes:

... thanks to EPA standards, zinc levels being reduced or removed from oils, and the like has resulted in over 3 times the additives being added to oils now compared to in the past in order to achieve the best protection possible. Internal testing has shown that the additive package begins to break down at 5,000 miles and is seriously compromised the longer you go.

Is the implication that even though additive levels are HIGHER, the new additive composition isn't lasting as long? I'm surprised to hear that, and I'm curious if you have information about which performance metrics are or aren't being impacted there.

Knowing that this is targeted at newer vehicles, I will share my perspective from the cars I do have. Daily driver is a 2003 ALH, and have had it since 150,000 miles. Now at over 250k and oil changes have always been at 15k intervals with Rotella T6. I've been doing used oil analysis recently and have been pleased with the insights.

On my vehicle, wear metals with a 15k OCI have always been lower than the "universal averages" that Blackstone reports for the same motors running on average 8k OCIs, and the TBN/viscosity numbers always have showed significant room to spare. Latest TBN at 15k miles was 2.8 with a minimum of 1.0 (I've never gotten units on what the TBN actually is, but it's always been very roomy above that minimum).

Given the data, I am inclined to keep doing what I've been doing. I'd be interested if anyone wants to dissuade me from that, particularly @BleachedBora as the OP with the original recommendations.

My other question is whether folks with the CR engines can weigh in with their own oil analysis results and whether we can see if there has been a decline in oil longevity.

EDIT - I just wanted to add at the end here that up until the last oil change I have been running COMPLETELY STOCK, including the EGR. So up until earlier this year, we can assume I've also have a "stock" amount of soot in the system.

 

[turbodieseldyke]

My other question is whether folks with the CR engines can weigh in with their own oil analysis results and whether we can see if there has been a decline in oil longevity.

You'd want to split the CR owners into Deleted vs Stock groups, too.

 

[bmwM5power]

You'd want to split the CR owners into Deleted vs Stock groups, too.

if you deleted Id definitely use 5W40

 

[oilhammer]

The CR engines do not employ flat-tappet cam-on-bucket type lifters. They have tiny little rollers with the hydraulic lash adjuster off to the side. They really don't require the thicker oil than the VEs and [especially] PDs need because they simply don't have that sheer load on anything.

I have customers with over 300k miles on deleted CJAAs that still use the same 5w30 507.00 oil, some are running double service intervals (because the oil stays so clean).

 

[Dalon]

My CKRA sees about 1500-2000 miles a year. Should I just continue doing one oil change per year then? That's what I have been doing the past 5 years

 

[oilhammer]

Well that depends. Is it 1500-2000 miles per year with a single trip? Or 1500-2000 miles per year with 200 trips?

Lots of short trips are harder on the oil than one long trip.

I own a lot of cars, but with only my wife and I driving any of them, we obviously cannot pile miles on them all. My two Ford trucks rarely get driven, and they get their oil changed every 5k miles (by the book) but that means every three or so years. I write the date on the filter just so I remember when last I did it, but sometimes I cannot even read the date LOL.

 

[T1MMBOJONES]

Ever-thinning oil specs (Toyota is down to a 0w8 on some models, 0w16 on many others), and lots of tiny little metal bits in the engines, high operating temps, this stupid start-stop nonsense jack-hammering the timing chain tensioners 20+ times a day instead of twice, and just generally a bunch of "stuff" that we didn't have years ago.

The base engine in a Silverado for a long time was the 4.3L V6, which was itself a 5.7L V8 with two cylinders missing.... the old "SBC" dating back to 1955. They had plenty of time to make them reasonably reliable, and they stayed pretty simple. Those things could take a beating. Just like the big 4.9L I6 in Fords. Simple, old, sturdy, low tech, cheap. You could put anything that called itself oil in the crankcase, run them two or even three quarts low, and they'd still show up for work the next day. We had fleets that had trucks that were treated like the drunk girl on prom night. Run hard, put away wet, every possible level of mistreatment you could think of.

Now, GM's base engine is a turbocharged multivalve twin cam 2.7L 4 cylinder. Direct injected, cylinder deactivation (yes, on a 4 cylinder!), dual variable cams, all kinds of fancy stuff. And they run good... GOBS of power, reasonably good fuel economy, some of which of course comes courtesy of an 11ty speed automatic transmission, which is itself a rolling liability but that's a story for another day. But the sheer number of pieces in these engines is staggering.

Ford's base engine is not much different in terms of complexity... they're using a twin cam direct injected 3.3L V6. No turbo, but twice the cylinder banks. Again, they run great, but that itty bitty chain simply cannot hold up if they're run low on oil... and they too have a 10k mile service interval.

we rented a renault trafic van while in france the last week and a half. sadly i never got around to popping the hood to verify its displacement but given it was a pretty bare bone rental i suspect it had the 1.6l. i really enjoyed driving it and its quite peppy but the start/stop feature is annoying to say the least. ive wondered about the toll they take on the longevity of modern vehicles, im a bit of a tree hugger but even i find this to be asanine....i also own diesels so obviously my hugs are loose....

 

[BleachedBora]

Thanks to everyone for the perspectives and to @BleachedBora for the research and recommendations. Here's what I am struggling to understand from your notes:



Is the implication that even though additive levels are HIGHER, the new additive composition isn't lasting as long? I'm surprised to hear that, and I'm curious if you have information about which performance metrics are or aren't being impacted there.

Knowing that this is targeted at newer vehicles, I will share my perspective from the cars I do have. Daily driver is a 2003 ALH, and have had it since 150,000 miles. Now at over 250k and oil changes have always been at 15k intervals with Rotella T6. I've been doing used oil analysis recently and have been pleased with the insights.

On my vehicle, wear metals with a 15k OCI have always been lower than the "universal averages" that Blackstone reports for the same motors running on average 8k OCIs, and the TBN/viscosity numbers always have showed significant room to spare. Latest TBN at 15k miles was 2.8 with a minimum of 1.0 (I've never gotten units on what the TBN actually is, but it's always been very roomy above that minimum).

Given the data, I am inclined to keep doing what I've been doing. I'd be interested if anyone wants to dissuade me from that, particularly @BleachedBora as the OP with the original recommendations.

My other question is whether folks with the CR engines can weigh in with their own oil analysis results and whether we can see if there has been a decline in oil longevity.

EDIT - I just wanted to add at the end here that up until the last oil change I have been running COMPLETELY STOCK, including the EGR. So up until earlier this year, we can assume I've also have a "stock" amount of soot in the system.

On an ALH you can get away with a lot, including longer intervals. They don't have DPF's, and they usually are running 5W40 oils.
If you're doing lots of long trips / not a lot of city driving you can go longer.

Main takeaways from what I posted:
1) DPF equipped vehicles, OR vehicles running lower viscosity oils need to shorten the intervals. 5K is a good number for most people. YMMV.
2) Additive packages are not what they used to be, so what protected better in the past may not necessarily protect today like it used to...
3) A big reason why the owners manual is saying 10K is in order to lower the cost of ownership, if they say that over 50k miles you're doing 5 oil changes at X dollars, then the cost to own is less than 10 changes over 50k miles. This plays into "this is a cheap car to service/own" which manufacturers are all about showing these days.

Older vehicles or those driven further might be able to lengthen the intervals. If you have analysis to back that up then good for you, run with it.

But 5K is a good interval for most. Especially since the average speed is 25 MPH in this country. 200 hours puts you at 5K miles.

-BB

 

[Dalon]

Well that depends. Is it 1500-2000 miles per year with a single trip? Or 1500-2000 miles per year with 200 trips?

Lots of short trips are harder on the oil than one long trip.

I own a lot of cars, but with only my wife and I driving any of them, we obviously cannot pile miles on them all. My two Ford trucks rarely get driven, and they get their oil changed every 5k miles (by the book) but that means every three or so years. I write the date on the filter just so I remember when last I did it, but sometimes I cannot even read the date LOL.

Probably a good amount of shorter trips than longer...car did go through a weight loss plan if that means anything

 

[GlowBugTDI]

...and that's not what this thread is about anyway. Although it does always strike me as funny that people see this (10k mile service interval) as some revelation ... the number of people that never ever read the owner's manual astounds me.

Most all vehicles sold within the last decade are either 7500 or 10k mile (or flexible, meaning they can go much longer) service intervals.

Unless you own a 2000 chevy tracker. That owners manual had a typo and say's 80,000 (maybe 85,000. I forget) mile OCI . Needless to say we never tried it.

 

[P2B]

Internal testing has shown that the additive package begins to break down at 5,000 miles and is seriously compromised the longer you go.

On my vehicle, wear metals with a 15k OCI have always been lower than the "universal averages" that Blackstone reports for the same motors running on average 8k OCIs, and the TBN/viscosity numbers always have showed significant room to spare.

@ccorn90 's UOA results appear to be at odds with @BleachedBora 's internal testing results.