UOA trending of 507.00, ?Higher Initial Wear? and inherited contaminant analysis

SUNRG

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
let me begin with the Inherited Contaminant Analysis, and to keep this reasonably brief i'll just analyze the inherited Fe and develop a theory from that analysis.

one bonus of pushing my previous OCI to 18,258 miles was that wear metals became elevated enough to have the inherited wear metals show up on a UOA of the newly installed oil. hence the 50 mile UOA (second entry from the top on the image below).

Virgin/Unused ELF Solaris LLX 5w-30 507.00 contains 1ppm Fe so...
  • Fe = 55: after 18,258 miles on used oil
  • Fe = 7: after 50 miles on new oil
  • Fe = 1: of new oil before it was installed
  • Fe = 6: this is the approximate amount of Fe the new oil inherited from the used oil
6 is 10.9% of 55 - so roughly 11% of the Fe wear metals from the old oil were still present after the new oil was installed. we could interpret this to mean that 11% of the old oil was not removed during the oil change procedure.

since it took roughly 4.7 liters to refill this engine after the oil change, we could estimate that 4.7 liters = 89% of the total oil capacity (11% of the oil is not removed during an oil change, 89% of the oil is removed).

4.7 liters divided by 89% gives us a 5.3 liter total oil capacity. 5.3 - 4.7 possibly means 0.5 liters are not changed during an oil change.

i emphasized could and possibly above because this is all theoretical. i could not put a tracer on every ppm of Fe to determine with confidence which ones were inherited. the blue text above is an attempt to explain this data with a plausible theory.

full disclosure: my oil change procedure is not typical. i...
  • drain oil via the drain plug, and
  • vaccuum extract oil from the oil filter housing, oil cooler and all the plumbing and crannies accessible with the oil filter removed, and
  • use Motul Engine Clean (a motor oil / engine flush)
so, if you just do a topside oil change, or if you just drain oil via the drain plug, or if you do not use Motul Engine Clean, your new oil may inherit more than 11% of your old oil's contaminants.

on to the Higher Initial Wear Theory, this will be quick...

in previous threads i've posted data that supported the SAE study findings that engine wear is high after an oil change, then after 1000-2000 miles wear rates drop - theoretically because the new oil's anti-wear chemistry becomes established during that period.

this UOA does not support the Higher Initial Wear Theory. the Fe wear rate for the oil sample interval from mile 50 to mile 2050 was 1.0ppm / 1000miles. this is incredibly low, and this 507.00 UOA is the lowest Fe wear rate i have observed for the 0 - ~2000 mile range.

finally, this is the beginning of my UOA trending of ELF Solaris LLX 507.00 5w-30 in my 04GolfTDI. i will sample every 2000 miles so we can see how long this oil will perform optimally.

cheers!

 

dieseldorf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 11, 2000
Location
MA
TDI
ex- 1996 wagon, ex-2000 Jetta
SUNRG said:


4.7 liters divided by 89% gives us a 5.3 liter total oil capacity. 5.3 - 4.7 possibly means 0.5 liters are not changed during an oil change.

Great work as usual. Thanks. yeah, I think your point above about dirty oil residue is key. In order to really nail this UOA data we enjoy so much, you should probably be running 3 changes minimum with the same oil vs. switching to another oil at the next ODI and starting a new "analysis". I feel back-to-back UOA using the same oil, etc. will likely reveal more accurate data.
 

SUNRG

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
dieseldorf said:
...In order to really nail this UOA data we enjoy so much, you should probably be running 3 changes minimum with the same oil vs. switching to another oil at the next ODI and starting a new "analysis". I feel back-to-back UOA using the same oil, etc. will likely reveal more accurate data.
but, but, but... there are so many cool oils i want to try!!! :D
 

dieseldorf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 11, 2000
Location
MA
TDI
ex- 1996 wagon, ex-2000 Jetta
I know, I hear ya :D ....and I've think you've stumbled on a winner here! Is this your initial use of 507.00??
 

SUNRG

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
dieseldorf said:
I know, I hear ya :D ....and I've think you've stumbled on a winner here! Is this your initial use of 507.00??
507.00 was in this vehicle before for a brief period LINK
 

TwoSlick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 10, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
2002 Audi TT Roadster, 1990 Audi 100
Sometimes a simply change in additive chemistries can result in a spike in iron levels, as the new antiwear additives displace the old ones. I see this all the time....

I would agree it takes several runs with the same oil before you see optimum results.

TS
 

thermographer

Veteran Member
Joined
May 1, 2004
Location
Maryville, Tennessee
TDI
Jetta GL, 2004 Wheat/Beige with Automatic Tiptronic, ESP
SUNRG said:
  • drain oil via the drain plug, and
  • vaccuum extract oil from the oil filter housing, oil cooler and all the plumbing and crannies accessible with the oil filter removed,
This is the method I used to replace the oil.

I'm not sure if it would help your data, but I would be happy to do a OA after a 1100 mile run down & back to the Gulf Of Mexico. Leaving on Monday and the car sits at the heliport for 2 weeks.

Kevin:)
 

SUNRG

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
thermographer said:
This is the method I used to replace the oil.

I'm not sure if it would help your data, but I would be happy to do a OA after a 1100 mile run down & back to the Gulf Of Mexico. Leaving on Monday and the car sits at the heliport for 2 weeks.

Kevin:)
thanks Kevin. you are very significantly contributing to our 507.00 data by using the oil and performing UOAs in your relatively high mileage PD - (nearing 120k). from what i've seen your oil / engine are doing very well - i'd just sample at 10k and if all looks good you may be ready to go to 15k OCIs.

re: as sample in 1100 miles... without performing a UOA on the oil right after it's installed (ie. my 50 miles UOA) and then again after ~2000 miles, we are unable to distinguish the inherited wear metals from those produced by engine wear - so i wouldn't worry about it.

cheers!
 

AndyH

Registered Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 25, 2001
Location
San Antonio, TX
TDI
'97 Passat Wagon 410K RIP
Rob - I think you're making a mistake in using the Motul flush each change. The first reason is that you're leaving a bit of it in the engine after the drain. The additives are not likely the same as in the Elf product and additive clash will affect the life of the new oil. Second reason is there's no reason to flush a perfectly clean engine - and that's what one has when they use man-made synthetics.

edit: Rob - notice the comments in the bottom two reports - would you give us the text that 'fell off' the right sides? What are they saying about synthetic/blends?
 
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wjdell

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May 17, 2006
Location
Central Florida
TDI
06 Jetta TDI DSG PKG 1 17" VV Campy White/Beige
I am starting to see that this testing of the oil may be very beneficial. Not just to know if the oil is good for continued use. But it can actually tell you if you have something wrong. I will make my 10k change in January 07 and send sample in and post results. The Glycol is the one that was scary.
 

SUNRG

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
just moments ago, when posting to another thread re: additives i realized that i did introduce a new variable at the start of this OCI - Total's DiecylPlus fuel additive. www.tdiparts.com is stocking this for IMHO the very reasonable price of $5 / bottle. i've been using it exclusively, so my use of Total Diecyl Plus coincides with the good UOA result described in post#1 of this thread.




 
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