Unexplained power limit during hard acceleration

deezulmark

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Location
Elizabethton, TN
TDI
96 Passat Wagon
Power limit less pronounced

Other thing I meant to mention is that starting with the new filters and definitely with cleaned intake, the power drop is less pronounced when it does still happen. When it hits the limit, its still obvious, but a bit softer or less sudden. And as I mentioned, if I keep my foot on it, sometimes it will continue to accelerate, just a lot more slowly.

But like I said, it's improved to the point that I don't expect to encounter the problem very often - even at on-ramps now. Just curious to know what remaining factors there may be that it still lurks out there.

Mark
 

P2B

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Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Location
Toronto & Muskoka, Canada
TDI
2002 Jetta, 2003 Jetta, 2003 Jetta Wagon
deezulmark said:
Just curious to know what remaining factors there may be that it still lurks out there.
As paramedick said, boost control tubing and/or N75 valve. I suspect a quick VAG-COM scan would provide the answer...

Simon
 

deezulmark

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Location
Elizabethton, TN
TDI
96 Passat Wagon
P2B said:
As paramedick said, boost control tubing and/or N75 valve. I suspect a quick VAG-COM scan would provide the answer...

Simon
The hoses in general seem to be in good shape but will have to look further. Anybody in northeast TN with VAG-COM willing to help?

Thanks,
Mark
 

Wypij

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2005
Location
EU
TDI
Passat '96 blue
When you get access to VagCom also log the actual reported airflow vs the requested value. Start logging, floor it in 4th or 5th and go as high as possible. Or swap MAF for a known good one and test-drive. See Ross Tech (VagCom) site for a nice test procedure description.

--
Marius
 

deezulmark

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Location
Elizabethton, TN
TDI
96 Passat Wagon
Need intercooler pipe. Anybody parting out a Passat?

Finally remembered to bring the part number to work so I could call when they're open. Dealer wants $107.53 for the intercooler pipe. Ugh. I think I'll let my epoxied fix work for a while. It'll probably be fine for a long time, but there is a long eroded area below the hole that has me a little concerned about the overall integrity of the pipe. And the molded support area that attaches to a bracket under the battery tray is also trashed, so it'd be nice to have that fixed too.

So if anybody there is parting out a 96-97 Passat, I need the intercooler pipe that drops down next to the battery and attaches to the bottom of the intercooler. Part #3A0-145-828

Mark
 

euronation

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Location
Everett, WA
TDI
96 B4
I have a similar issue. Sometimes the road I live on takes a bit of throttle to pull out onto and if my car is even remotely cold and I throttle on hard in 1st or 2nd. If I get it just right it cuts out and will either run on a couple cylinder or just die. If it dies I have to wait a couple minute before it will start again.:confused:
 

deezulmark

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Location
Elizabethton, TN
TDI
96 Passat Wagon
Clean intake = No Smoke!

One thing I have noticed since my initial tests (which were done at night) after the intake cleaning is that in subsequent daytime driving I have never been able to spot any smoke in my side-view mirror. Before it was common to see a bit when I had the pedal down hard.

But the power limit still kicks in pretty consistently at full throttle in 3rd or higher gear usually 3500-3700 RPM. But one time on a long steep on-ramp with a heavier than usual passenger load it kicked in at 3000. In this case I had not just shifted from 2nd but had already been in 3rd, probably at about 2000 RPM coming around a curve when I floored it. But I just lifted my foot for a sec and put it down again and it went on up smoothly to 4000.

So while we beat the problem back into the bushes a bit, it's still lurking and not quite beat back as far as I thought.

So I definitely need to look at things with VAG-COM and I'm also researching new nozzles which are definitely due. Trying to decide between stock size or .205. If I get the .205 I'll need VAG-COM anyhow to tweak things per the FAQ to take better advantage of the extra fuel.

Nobody on the list is real close, but a couple are within about an hour and I've started trying to make contact. Also thinking about just going ahead and buying it. Are the third party cables on E-bay OK? They're a lot cheaper route if you use the activated version of the software ($99), rather than the official cable and included hardware activation ($249).

Mark
 

deezulmark

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Location
Elizabethton, TN
TDI
96 Passat Wagon
Overboost?

Thanks to Nick02, I was able to get a preliminary VAG-COM scan today. No codes were stored (and I've never ever had the CEL come on). Spec and actual airflow followed each other very well so probably not an MAF issue. We also confirmed it has the BK ECU.

Then we went for a drive and hit some uphill onramps at full throttle in 3rd gear. Nick does not have a great deal of experience with his VAG-COM and couldn't remember how to get the VAG-SCOPE button to be enabled on the parameter selection screen, in order to then watch them on a graph, so we had to settle for him watching the numbers.

The first run was the best example of the problem, but a little mild compared to many previous experiences. Actual boost followed spec and then dropped about 400mbar as the "dip" was felt. The subsequent attempts were relative hiccups and acceleration continued fairly well towards 4000 rpm during which he wasn't able to notice any big changes in the numbers.

Since actual MAP was following spec until the dip, I was thinking we had a regulation problem and something is accidentally letting the boost off (N75 valve?). But then I got home and calculated the actual PSI, as the mbar numbers had no meaning to me - I've only seen in the FAQ that tuners should never exceed 18 psi and that 12psi is about normal for stock.

Nick said he had over 2200 mbar showing on the boost and then it dropped into the 1800s. Looking up a conversion online I find that 2200 converts to 31.9 psi, minus 14.7 standard atmospheric is 17.2. And in looking over Nick's shoulder before we started the car, actual was reading in the mid 900s rather than standard 1014 which seems about right for our elevation and average weather. So thats really about 1300 mbar of actual boost which converts to 18.85 psi!!!! (And the drop to 1800 works out to about 12psi).

So now I'm really confused. Or did I just do my math wrong? Nick said spec and actual MAP were following each other until the dip, so if it is overboosting, how is the ECU looking for that much? The previous owner of the car was also the original owner and we've talked enough that I'm 99.9% sure the car is bone stock - no chipping. Only thing non-stock he ever did to the car was the mufflerectomy when it rusted out.

Whatever the case, whether it is looking for too much to begin with or not, it seems to be overboosting and something is cutting it back (thankfully). But if I'm really getting that much boost, while acceleration is pretty good until it cuts back, it certainly ain't throwing me back in the seat either. (Maybe new nozzles will change that...)

Where do I go from here? I'm still due for nozzles and planning on .205mm, so will be working on that in the meantime.

Mark

PS: Of course coming home, post-VAG, I got a better example of the problem. Coming up a hill on the interstate I wanted a little more speed and dropped it into 4th and pushed the pedal harder. It picked up a bit and then in the low to mid 3000 rpm range it just stayed right there. I held my foot on it a little while and it wouldn't budge. Lifted my foot a little, put it back down and then the RPM came up.
 
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deezulmark

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Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Location
Elizabethton, TN
TDI
96 Passat Wagon
N75 apparently OK. Wastegate or actuator stuck?

Had some time this weekend and I think I found the problem:

Put the car up on ramps and crawled under to inspect the air lines to the turbo. How the heck does anybody ever work up in there - it is so tight!

The red and blue airlines appear to be in good shape, but when I tried to jiggle the wastegate actuator rod, it wouldn't budge. Shouldn't it be at least a little moveable by hand? I've searched the FAQ and other posts, but can't find any reference to this kind of test.

It's about impossible to get your hand up in there to do anything. But it appears the actuator moves to the left when pressurized, so I got a very long screwdriver and pried it against something solid and managed to put some pretty significant leftward force on it and it still wouldn't budge.

So unless I missed something it seems either the actuator is stuck or the wastegate itself. This would certainly induce the overboost and "limp mode" reduction of fuel. Can somebody can confirm that the actuator should at least have a little movement by hand? Otherwise I guess I need to come up with a way to actually pressurize the line manually and watch the actuator.

I was out of time (and already bleeding from catching my hand on something), but I guess the next step is to pull the actuator and see what is stuck. I sure hope it's the actuator and not the gate itself. Anybody care to place bets on which is stuck?

I had previously discounted the actuator because the previous owner stated that the wastegate "solenoid" (which I took to mean the actuator) had been replaced, but it sure looked pretty old and rusty. I suspect now maybe he may have misunderstood his mechanic - possibly could have been speaking of the actuator valve (N75). However, all the lines still have the original crimp style clamps. Are these clamps reuseable? I would think if the N75 or anything else had been replaced, the original clamps would have been pried off and replaced with something else.

BTW: I forgot to have Nick02 do an output test to check the N75 with his VAG-COM, but checking with a meter I found that when the ignition is switched on, the valve gets 12V. So I put my fingers on it and had my wife turn the key a few times and felt the valve trip. Must turn off more softly as I didn't feel anything with the key going off, but it could be felt with each key-on.
 

P2B

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Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Location
Toronto & Muskoka, Canada
TDI
2002 Jetta, 2003 Jetta, 2003 Jetta Wagon
deezulmark said:
It's about impossible to get your hand up in there to do anything. But it appears the actuator moves to the left when pressurized, so I got a very long screwdriver and pried it against something solid and managed to put some pretty significant leftward force on it and it still wouldn't budge.
I'm not sure which is left under there :D but the actuator arm extends out of the pot when pressurized. It's tough to move by hand, but should move without significant effort when pried with a screwdriver.

So unless I missed something it seems either the actuator is stuck or the wastegate itself.
Yup, sounds like it. More likely wastegate than actuator :mad:

Otherwise I guess I need to come up with a way to actually pressurize the line manually and watch the actuator.
I've heard a bike pump works well. It should take less than 15PSI and you don't want to exceed about 20PSI.

I had previously discounted the actuator because the previous owner stated that the wastegate "solenoid" (which I took to mean the actuator) had been replaced, but it sure looked pretty old and rusty. I suspect now maybe he may have misunderstood his mechanic - possibly could have been speaking of the actuator valve (N75). However, all the lines still have the original crimp style clamps. Are these clamps reuseable?
You can open the clamps a little with a small screwdriver to remove the N75 and close them again with needlenose pliers - so original clamps does not neccessarily mean original N75.

BTW: I forgot to have Nick02 do an output test to check the N75 with his VAG-COM, but checking with a meter I found that when the ignition is switched on, the valve gets 12V. So I put my fingers on it and had my wife turn the key a few times and felt the valve trip. Must turn off more softly as I didn't feel anything with the key going off, but it could be felt with each key-on.
That's odd. The N75 should get B+ whenever the ignition is on, but it should only trip when the ECU grounds the other side to open the wastegate. The N75 does not trip when you turn on the ignition, you must be feeling a 'blip' as the ECU powers up. You can test the N75 manually by disconnecting the harness and running wires from the battery - there should be a very audible click on both trip and release.

Simon
 

matteas

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Location
N. New Mexico
TDI
15' tdi GSW
My actuator rod rusted on the pin hinge and I experienced similar problems. With a bit of lube my problem went away. Use a vacume pump on the actuator to verify movement. Hand pressure on the rod won't move it. Hope it helps.
 

P2B

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Jan 11, 2006
Location
Toronto & Muskoka, Canada
TDI
2002 Jetta, 2003 Jetta, 2003 Jetta Wagon
matteas said:
My actuator rod rusted on the pin hinge and I experienced similar problems. With a bit of lube my problem went away. Use a vacume pump on the actuator to verify movement. Hand pressure on the rod won't move it. Hope it helps.
WARNING - DO NOT USE A VACUUM PUMP ON THE ACTUATOR.

matteas, the A3/B4 cars use turbo pressure to operate the actuator, unlike the later cars which have vacuum operated actuators.

I'm not certain that applying vacuum to a pressure actuator (or pressure to a vacuum actuator) would damage it - but it might, and certainly would not be a valid test.

Simon
 

jollyGreenGiant

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Feb 3, 2003
Location
MA
TDI
03 Golf TDI GLS ( my 5th TDI ), 03 Eurovan GLS - VR6 :(
A vacuum shouldn't damage it and it would check for a holed diaphragm if one were able to apply it and watch a gauge but it won't move it obviously. A pressure regulator or bike pump would work best.
 

deezulmark

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Location
Elizabethton, TN
TDI
96 Passat Wagon
P2B said:
WARNING - DO NOT USE A VACUUM PUMP ON THE ACTUATOR.
Simon
Thanks for the head's up P2B. Yes I understand mine is a pressure actuator, not vacuum, although vacuum probably wouldn't hurt it. Unfortunately I won't have time to mess with it for about two weeks as we're going to be out of town. When I have time I'll see if I can loosen the actuator far enough to slide the rod off the wastegate lever and see which one is stuck.

I sure hope it's just the actuator. If it's the wastegate, how hard can I pry or beat on the lever to try to pop the gate open? I really don't want to have to pull the turbo - it's in such a difficult spot. The intake manifold wasn't too bad, but that turbo is a lot further down. I guess I'll have to lay some boards across the engine compartment so I can lay up there and not kill my back.

If I have to pull the turbo should I plan on just replacing it, given the car's mileage or can I expect a lot more miles out of it assuming I can get the gate and seating area nice and clean?

BTW: When I was back under the hood last night trying to see how bad a turbo pull will be, I pulled the connector off the N75 again and borrowed the alligator clip leads from my multi-meter. Touched them to the battery and the valve clicked audibly. I had been afraid to do this before not knowing the polarity, but the last test showed which side was B+. The previous key-on test probably did just yield a power-up blip as I could only feel a little movement and not hear much if any audible click.

Thanks to everyone for helping me find the problem. Now if I can just get it fixed!

Mark
 

P2B

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Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Location
Toronto & Muskoka, Canada
TDI
2002 Jetta, 2003 Jetta, 2003 Jetta Wagon
deezulmark said:
I sure hope it's just the actuator. If it's the wastegate, how hard can I pry or beat on the lever to try to pop the gate open?
I don't know, but my instinct would be to blast it with lots of penetrant, give it at least overnight to soak in, then try to grab the lever with locking pliers and wiggle the sucker loose. I think I'd pull the turbo before resorting to significant prying or any beating.

If I have to pull the turbo should I plan on just replacing it, given the car's mileage or can I expect a lot more miles out of it assuming I can get the gate and seating area nice and clean?
Tough call - if it's the original turbo it may not hold up a whole lot longer, but on the other hand turbos aren't cheap. I, however, am cheap :D - so provided the thing seemed serviceable once I was done cleaning it up, I'd reinstall and hope for the best.

Simon
 

RC

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 13, 2000
Location
Maryland`s Eastern Shore
TDI
Two White 96 B4 Wagons
paramedick said:
... Most likely culprit is the need for all new vacuum lines. I recommend silicone, and preserve the color coding.
Last time I tried to find these I couldn't source them.

Anyone have suggestions?
 

matteas

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Location
N. New Mexico
TDI
15' tdi GSW
WARNING - DO NOT USE A VACUUM PUMP ON THE ACTUATOR.

Sorry for the mis-information, I meant pressure on the actuator. I used a mity-vac hand pump for this.
Vacuum on one end and pressure on the other.
This is a low tech way to see if the rod moves under pressure. I just pumped enough to verify movement of the rod.
 

deezulmark

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Location
Elizabethton, TN
TDI
96 Passat Wagon
Fixed!!! Hallelujah!

:) :) :) My limp mode has disappeared! :) :) :)

And as we were pretty sure of by now, it was the stuck wastegate. The problem was then getting it unstuck.

When I was under the car last week, I was trying various ways to stick something up in there against the wastegate lever and managed to get a stick against it and decent whack or two via a hammer on the other end. I THOUGHT, but couldn't be at all sure, I saw it move slightly. But additional attempts to move it failed.

Thursday had an opportunity to stomp it in 3rd gear once or twice and it ran all the way up to 4000 RPM and didn't drop into limp mode from the overboost. I was rather amazed and could only conclude that I must have gotten it slightly open and it was bypassing just enough exhaust to limit the boost to below the threshold that causes limp mode.

Just got back this afternoon from an overnight trip where I had quite a few on-ramp and other uphill opportunities to stomp it in 3rd all the way to 4000 rpm and could never get it to cut back the power. Even ran it to 3500 in 4th gear (as fast as I wanted to go!). Wow! Problem GONE!

Got home, unloaded the family and luggage and put it back on the ramps and let it cool over supper. Pried on the actuator rod a little again with pliers and didn't seem any better so I figured it was still stuck, but just open slightly. So it was time to try what had been suggested lubricant and bike pump trick and now I had time. Shot some WD-40 into the actuator (had to make a double-length "straw" to reach far enough and bend the end to aim it in along the actuator rod - both accomplished with strategic use of electrical tape).

Got out the bike pump kit I got at Lowes on the suggestion of Philh (see thread http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=167981) which solved the problem of actually connecting a bike pump to the actuator hose. I would've tried that last time but couldn't figure a good way to hook up the pump. Pulled the actuator hose off the N75 valve and dropped it down behind the engine. Crawled back under, hooked up the bike pump and sure enough the actuator opened the wastegate!!! Yeeee Haah! (there's no emoticon for wildly dancing for joy around the garage). Seemed like it took a lot of pressure at first to move it, but don't think it ever really went over 40 psi (fortunately my pump has a gauge on it). So I exercised it quite a bit and it seemed to move a little more easily, but still takes 30 psi for full deflection. I hadn't realized until now that it's working against a return spring. Seems to take about 10 psi to begin to move, 20 to get halfway open and 30 for full travel.

I also know that the tubing is good because the gate would stay open until I released the pump's clamp from the adapter and let the air bleed back out.

Then after all that, I finally found an easy way to pry the wastegate lever. Stuck the long end of a large framers square up against the pin that the actuator rod hooks to. Pry against the oil line (which is sturdy) and moderate pressure easily opened the gate. But you can feel the return spring in the actuator is pretty stiff, so as it turns out you can't easily move the rod with long pliers anyhow. Gotta use a long pry lever. But the pry method is a quick check for stuckness and then the bike pump will verify proper air operation.

SO! We finally we got her figured out and fixed and I didn't even have to pull the turbo. My profuse thanks to EVERYONE that has replied to help me sort it all out. Not only did we fix the problem, but got the intake cleaned too (which eliminated smoke), as well as new filters and also learned that my injector nozzles are very due for replacement. Although I'd rather not have had to deal with the problem, I've learned a ton about how all the systems work and where everything is located under the hood.

A set of .205mm arrived yesterday and Turbinewhine has graciously offered his time and expertise in a few weeks to ensure the process goes smoothly. After that, hopefully she's good for another 220k miles!

Mark
 

MCathcart

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
North Myrtle Beach, SC
TDI
2003 Jetta
Funny I never suppected the waste gate. My '98 Tdi turbo is louder than any Tdi we've ever owned (5 total). I was thinking today that I'm sure it's going into over boost (and the power drops off). I'll jack it up Monday and check the waste gate.

Mike
'98 NB Tdi 110k
'99 NB Tdi 156k
'04 NB Tdi 41k
 

quantum_tdi

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Joined
Sep 14, 2004
Location
Seattle, WA
TDI
R320 CDI, '96 B4V (for sale)
keep that wastegate actuator lubed!

Same problem I had... lubed wastegate actuator, put pressure up to 20psi (yes, that is when it was finally moving- hello overboost!) and moved it a couple of times while applying more lubricant. Just to be safe, I replaced the vac line too. It took a little while for the lubricant to fully penetrate... Two days after the "fix" there was no more overboost and a much smoother acceleration. Glad it is working. Has it continued to be smooth since the fix?
 

deezulmark

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Location
Elizabethton, TN
TDI
96 Passat Wagon
Yeah, now we're smokin'!

Yah, it's been great :D . Thanks for asking. Once I had that licked, I got the .205mm nozzles put in (thanks TurbineWhine!) and it really goes now. Very impressive performance for a 1.9 engine in a car that heavy. The nozzle upgrade makes a bit of smoke where the stock nozzles would never smoke though. May tweak the IQ back a little more. Would really like to avoid smoke except very close to full throttle. Just a little too easy to smoke it right now.

Power steering pump went out in the meantime - not too hard to fix though. Now if I can just chase down that little drippy oil leak. Somebody said the CCV breather tube usually gets a little crack around where it attaches to the crankcase...

quantum_tdi said:
Has it continued to be smooth since the fix?
 

quantum_tdi

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TDI
R320 CDI, '96 B4V (for sale)
deezulmark said:
Once I had that licked, I got the .205mm nozzles put in (thanks TurbineWhine!) and it really goes now.
Yeah, I did sprint 442's (.184 replacement) as I didn't think I needed the .205's and now I wish I had done a slight upgrade. The 442's keep the mileage up as my wife and I both have a tendency to stomp on the pedal. I'm still wondering if I should have done the PP375's, but they weren't in stock when I ordered...

I also have the older style injector bodies that open at a lower pressure. I'm not sure if that effects smoke, but you might check to see if the higher pressure ones would help with the smoke (just speculating here...)
 

deezulmark

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Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Location
Elizabethton, TN
TDI
96 Passat Wagon
From what I've heard, seems like smoke is mostly the result of extra fuel or fuel coming in a bit late.

I would think the opening pressure would mostly just affect the frontside injection timing. The opening pressure is pretty low compared to the full working pressure, so the overall timing of when the bulk of the fuel gets in may not be affected too much. Thats just my gut feel based on limited knowledge. Somebody much more familiar with all that interplay can probably set us straight.

When did they change to the newer style injectors? Don't know what I have. It was built 8/96 if that tells you anything.

The timing was checked in VAGcom before the nozzle upgrade and found to be a little advanced. After the upgrade the timing was just about right. Why it changed, I don't know.

quantum_tdi said:
I also have the older style injector bodies that open at a lower pressure. I'm not sure if that effects smoke, but you might check to see if the higher pressure ones would help with the smoke (just speculating here...)
 

paramedick

TDIClub Enthusiast, Vendor
Joined
Jul 29, 2001
Location
Versailles, Kentucky
TDI
2015 Audi Q5 TDI
You have the low pressure injectors. I personally think there is a little bit less smoke with the higher pressure injectors but someone will jump in to tell me why I'm wrong! :D
 

deezulmark

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Location
Elizabethton, TN
TDI
96 Passat Wagon
Thanks Paramedick. I'm not in a position to try to upgrade them anytime soon (maybe at the next 100,000 miles when I replace nozzles again).

However, I've been wondering if anyone has a recommended IQ setting for .205s for minimum smoke. VAGcom was showing I think about 3.4 mg/stroke before the swap. After the swap it made TONS of smoke. Left a blackspot on the pavement stomping on it in first gear from a stopsign! The default tweak value was 128. We lowered it to 118 and it was showing about 4.4 mg. Smoke then seemed much better, but in further driving seems a little too easy still to make some. It has plenty of power, so I'm inclined to tweak it up further. My preference is to not have any smoke until you're nearly at full throttle. Don't know if it can be fine tuned that far without eliminating most of the extra power...

I'm also still perplexed why increasing the mg reduces the smoke!

We probably need to move this to a new thread - the subject has changed quite a bit.

paramedick said:
You have the low pressure injectors. I personally think there is a little bit less smoke with the higher pressure injectors but someone will jump in to tell me why I'm wrong! :D
 

paramedick

TDIClub Enthusiast, Vendor
Joined
Jul 29, 2001
Location
Versailles, Kentucky
TDI
2015 Audi Q5 TDI
Nahhh, leave it here.

I run my RC3/.205s at 5.0 IQ. I can still get a bit of smoke if I want it, but not routinely.

Just a bit of info. Greg Landuyt can do the injector service and reshim/balance your existing injectors to the higher pressure for $100. Balanced is nice, IMHO. If you decide to do it, I might know where an extra set of injectors are that can be borrowed.....GOK that they have travelled all over the USA.
 

deezulmark

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Location
Elizabethton, TN
TDI
96 Passat Wagon
Why would I leave it at 4.4 if 5.0 will make it better? Or will it cost me more power than you think I'd like to lose?

Still looking for an explaination of why higher indicdated mg/stroke makes less smoke :confused:

On the balancing of injectors, are you saying that I'd stick my old nozzles back in with the borrowed injectors while Greg services my injectors and new nozzles? Hmm...

paramedick said:
Nahhh, leave it here.

I run my RC3/.205s at 5.0 IQ. I can still get a bit of smoke if I want it, but not routinely.
 
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