ULSD & Biodiesel

MicroRacer

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Location
Reelsville, IN
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I have to admit I'm afraid of this combination. In just lost the injector pump in my 1981 Rabbit Diesel Pickup. I have been running close to B50 all summer. After just one tank of ULSD and biodiesel, my injector pump has failed. The place that I am getting my injector pump rebuilt told me that he normally gets 13 to 15 injector pumps a month. He is now getting that per week and he is blaming ULSD.

In my wife’s car we have been running B100 all summer long and then we will go to B50 for a winter mix using kerosene, and some LSD. I plan on staying away from the ULSD until I find out more.

How does ULSD and Biodiesel affect the seals and do they affect them differently. I was hoping for closer compatibility, but I have a lot to learn.
 

tditom

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
Jackson, MI
TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
When you say you "lost" your pump, are you just referring to leaky seals?

Switching to either biodiesel or ULSD after prolonged LSD usage can lead to seals leaking. To the best of my understanding, this is because the aromatics in LSD cause seal material to swell, which actually will push parts away from each other. When switching to either ULSD or BD, the seals shrink and may harden, leaving the components apart which causes the leaks. The good news is that when you replace the seals and stick with the new fuel, you shouldn't have anymore issues with seal failure.

When I first read that you lost your pump, I was wondering if you had issues with ULSD's lubricity, which may or may not be adequately additized enough to protect our pumps. If its just the seals, then I'm afraid that is the price of progress with ULSD.
 

MicroRacer

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Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Location
Reelsville, IN
TDI
Looking
tditom said:
When you say you "lost" your pump, are you just referring to leaky seals?
My truck would run then shut down like it ran out of fuel. I put a electric pump on it hoping that it might be the fuel pump, but unfortunately that was not it. The guy at vwdieselparts told me that it was the seal inside the pump that went bad and that it was sucking air.

So ULSD and biodiesel react in the same manner on the seals? If that’s true then that will be great, because sometimes on trips we get stuck using petro-diesel.
 

scurvy

Good Ol' Boy
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
Chicago IL USA
TDI
2006 Golf
MicroRacer said:
I have to admit I'm afraid of this combination. In just lost the injector pump in my 1981 Rabbit Diesel Pickup.
It sounds more like the 25 years of being bathed in rotgut higher sulfur (bio)diesel then the switch to ULSBD is what caused the seals to fail to me. Not the fuel itself, but switching fuels

tditom said:
Switching to either biodiesel or ULSD after prolonged LSD usage can lead to seals leaking.
Correct. It's the switch - not the fuel itself - that can lead to leaking seals.

This kind of stuff happens every time there's a major switch in fuel formulation (leaded to unleaded gas, MTBE to ethanol, HSD to LSD, the first ULSD, etc).

IMHO a ULSD-BD blend is the best fuel you can run in your TDI.

scurvy
 

bmixon

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Joined
Sep 2, 2006
Location
Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
TDI
1997 Passat TDI
Guys I am new to the forum and the Diesel world. I plan on having a used 97 Passat TDI delivered to my home near the end of this week. The gas station near my house sells only ULSD (Cetane 42). I had planned on filling up the Car there but after reading this should I be concerned??:)
 

tdisedanman

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2005
Location
So Florida
TDI
Ex 2005 Passat, TDI and ex 2005.5 Jetta TDI
My wife and I both have TDIs. Hers is an 05 Passat and mine is an 05.5 Jetta. We both have used B5 since about the 5000 mile mark. Neither of us has experienced any leaks yet and we are now on USLD and B5 all the time. Hope my luck holds up!
 
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scurvy

Good Ol' Boy
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
Chicago IL USA
TDI
2006 Golf
bmixon said:
...97 Passat TDI delivered to my home near the end of this week. The gas station near my house sells only ULSD (Cetane 42)
While LSD may still be available until 2010, ULSD is the future. I say go ahead and use it with reckless abandon - either the pump will leak or it won't. If it does, get the seals replaced and you'll be all good. Biodiesel has a similar affect on seals as high sulfur diesel (not due to aromatics - due to the aniline point, from what I've read) so low bio blends w/ULSD may help negate some of the problems with switching from LSD to ULSD.

One thing you may notice on here is that some people jump to conclusions and worry too much. Relax. Don't worry. Have a homebrew. Enjoy the Passat. :D

scurvy
 

tditom

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
Jackson, MI
TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
bmixon said:
Guys I am new to the forum and the Diesel world. I plan on having a used 97 Passat TDI delivered to my home near the end of this week. The gas station near my house sells only ULSD (Cetane 42). I had planned on filling up the Car there but after reading this should I be concerned??:)
I advise you to use a quality lubricity additive when using ULSD, until we can figure out if it is being adequately additized to protect our FI equipment. see this discussion
 

fisch

New member
Joined
Nov 14, 2006
Location
tucson
TDI
ALH jetta
tditom said:
I advise you to use a quality lubricity additive when using ULSD, until we can figure out if it is being adequately additized to protect our FI equipment. see this discussion
from biodieselmagazine.com
http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=1181&q=&page=all

Biodiesel Blending
Blending biodiesel with ULSD has been touted as a good fit for two reasons, according to Paul Nazzaro, a petroleum liaison for the National Biodiesel Board. First, biodiesel is a clean-burning renewable fuel that contains no sulfur, so it can be added to ULSD without raising the new diesel fuel’s sulfur content. Second, because sulfur is a lubricant, ULSD requires additives that increase its lubricity. Biodiesel can achieve that. With those two factors in mind, Nazzaro considers the two fuels—ULSD and biodiesel—a handsome match. A lot of people thought the implementation of ULSD would cause the biodiesel industry to “fade into the background,” he says, explaining that he sees the situation quite differently. “ULSD gives biodiesel legs,” he says.

more stuff:
http://www.biofuelsforum.com/using_biodiesel/217-ultra_low_sulphur_diesel_biodiesel_warranties.html

In France, all ULSD is mandated to contain 5% biodiesel, or another way of putting it is that all French diesel vehicles run on B5. Many of the major fuel companies in Australia are already using biodiesel as an additive to improve lubricity. Australian regulations state that mixes of B5 and under do not require any labelling or info to the consumer, so chances are that you are already driving with a small blend of biodiesel.
 

eyetdiman

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2004
Location
Wilmette, IL
TDI
'04 Passat TDI Sedan
What ever happened to the MN mandate of 2% biodiesel that was later withdrawn following many complaints?
 

tditom

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
Jackson, MI
TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
I agree with using ASTM spec bd> 5% to provide adequate lubricity. I use B20 myself to provide this, among other benefits.
 

FredIA

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Apr 23, 2006
Location
North of Cedar Rapids, IA
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2006 A5 Jetta, Shadow Blue, Pkg #1/XM, rear side curtain airbags
The local station that sells bio (unless specially ordered) sells B2. Is 2% enough to increase the ULSD lubrication in everyone's opinion?

Certainly by spring I'm going to switch to "legal VW" blends (B2 or B5) of Bio.

Fred
 

tditom

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
Jackson, MI
TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
Fred- look at this paper on bd and lubricity. At the top of page 3 there is a chart showing the lubricity benefit of various %BD on LSD. Note that the starting point of the D2 is a 536 u wear scar. [note that by ASTM standards (560 u wear scar max), no lubricity additives would be needed]. If ulsd is additized down to the same level this LSD is at, then B2 is probably good enough. I suggest at least B5, but that's just to be safe. As you can see by the chart, the lubricity benefits of BD above 1% are incremental.
 

homerdude

New member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Location
INDIA
TDI
none
U guys are doing really good work!...I am a MS student in Indian institute of Science Banglore and i would like ask u ...which fuel is better ULSD or Biodiesel? nd why?
 

feverwilly

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2006
Better is too general a question; (My opinion)

Better in quality --

This varies.. Some make it themselves and really pay attention to quality and removing water or methanol, some dont. Josh Tickwell in his first BioDiesel book said it was okay to leave the Methanol in the BioDiesel. He has reversed his stance because of the harmful pollutants it causes.

Better in the winter--

If winterized (ULSD), it doesent gell at as soon at the lower temps. BioDiesel will Gell at 32F without additives and maybe as low as 17F with additives.

Better in the summer and against pollution --

BioDiesel provides more lubricity. The Pollutants it causes smells like french fries or chicken cooking and I have read tests where rats were exposed to BioDiesel fumes for weeks at a time and they thrived, I read the same rats died when exposed to ULSD after a few days. Hands down BioD is better in this category.

Better against pollution I'd say BioD
 

JamesBa

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2006
Location
Maryland
TDI
GOLF '02
Neighborhood rats?

feverwilly said:
The Pollutants it causes smells like french fries or chicken cooking and I have read tests where rats were exposed to BioDiesel fumes for weeks at a time and they thrived, I read the same rats died when exposed to ULSD after a few days.
Better against pollution I'd say BioD
What if your neighbors are rats?:D
 

Thorne

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2006
Location
SF Bay Area
From the BioFuel Oasis website -
Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel Warning: [back to top] Possible Fuel Pump Failure in VW TDIs, post ‘99 Mercedes SDs, or any diesel with an injector pump lubricated with fuel - We’ve seen a sharp rise in injector pump failures, a previously rare occurrence, since California switched to Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) in October 2006. ULSD is causing problems in all types of diesel engines around the country because of its lack of lubricity and seal-shrinking properties. After surveying our customers and talking to diesel engineers and mechanics we’ve reached the following conclusions:
How could ULSD cause fuel pump failure? Injector pump seals: The original formulation of petroleum diesel caused pump seals to swell, and biodiesel swells seals even more. ULSD causes the seals to shrink and harden. Too many changes can damage the seals and the pump will leak fuel and/or suck in air. Most of the failures due to damaged seals have occurred in cars that have run on all three types of fuel. Three or four fuel changes are simply too many. Injector pump seals that are only exposed to two types of fuel, biodiesel and ULSD, are apparently not failing. It is likely that injector pump seals that have never been exposed to the pre-’06 blend of diesel will be OK.
Mechanical wear: ULSD is very low in lubricity, which is not good for pumps lubricated with fuel. Both biodiesel and ULSD attract water, and water causes rust, which is abrasive. Recommendations:Cars that have run on pre-’06 diesel:
  • Avoid running ULSD after switching to biodiesel. If you cannot get biodiesel when you are on the road, add the ULSD when you’ve still got at least 1/4 tank of biodiesel so that you are running a blend and not making an abrupt switch.
  • Use a diesel fuel conditioner, such as Stanadyne, when you do not have access to biodiesel. 3 oz. of conditioner per tank of ULSD will replace the lubricity properties of biodiesel.
  • Consider a preemptive injector pump rebuild, especially before a road trip that will take you away from biodiesel sources. A planned repair is a lot less expensive and inconvenient than an unplanned one. The new seals that have never been exposed to pre ‘06 sulfured diesel will theoretically be less likely to fail
Cars that have not run on pre-’06 diesel, or had injector pump rebuilds after October 2006:
  • Current evidence shows no problems with switching back and forth between biodiesel and ULSD, but be cautious anyway. Avoid abrupt switches in fuel types whenever possible; blend fuel types between changes. Biodiesel swells seals and ULSD shrinks them, so switching back and forth can theoretically strain seals. ULSD has only been around for a year - It may simply take more time for problems caused by fuel changes to surface.
  • Use a fuel conditioner when running ULSD.
All diesels running either biodiesel or ULSD — avoid rust:
  • Keep your tank full overnight when the days are warm and the nights are cold. Less air in the tank means less water condensation.
  • Use a fuel conditioner.
  • Add a water separator to your fuel system .
Don’t get ripped off If your injector pump does fail!
  • First, try switching back to biodiesel. Several people have reported that running at least 30% biodiesel re-swells the injector pump seals and stops the leaking. Let the injector pump absorb the biodiesel for 24 hours or more before giving up.
  • Avoid the dealer unless you can get the repair done under warranty. VW dealers typically charge $3k to replace your injector pump and fuel injectors and purge your entire fuel system. The same repair done at an independent garage typically costs half or less of what VW charges. Dealers are also notorious for diagnosing all fuel system problems in cars with biodiesel stickers as injector pump failures, and have recommended $3k repairs when they simply failed to bleed the air out of a new fuel filter.
  • If something doesn’t feel right always get a second opinion before agreeing to an expensive repair.
Where to go for Injector Pump Rebuild:These business only rebuild pumps and do not work on cars. Have your pump removed and send it to:
  • Diesel Fuel Injection Service, 8922 NE Vancouver Way. Portland, OR 97211. (503) 235-1947.
    OR
  • Diamond Diesel, 2550 East 12th Street, Oakland, CA 94601, (510) 532-8500AND
  • Use Viton seals: Viton TDI injector pump o ring seals are available from dieselgeek.com. They also sell the basic Bosh rebuild kit if you want to do the repair yourself.
 

DanDiesel

New member
Joined
Sep 24, 2010
Location
Ontario, Canada
TDI
A 2011 Tuareg soon!
With the introduction of Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel into the marketplace in 2006 several engine related problems have started to manifest themselves. The best and most inexpensive solution is to use a high performance additive.

I have tried Gunk, DSG, Motomaster, Prestone, Howes, Kleen and Forte. ULS Diesel Booster by Forte is, hands down, the winner. I will treat my new baby, a 2011 Touareg TDI, with it.

Cheers
 

St.Hubbins

Veteran Member
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Mar 16, 2010
Location
Nashville
TDI
'10 Golf, DSG / '11 A3, DSG (both went buyback) - '15 GSW SE
Forte? Canadian, is it? not sure it's available down here.

gets good reviews in the UK though.
 
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