Uh Oh!!!

KrashDH

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Location
Washington
TDI
2002 Golf
"Bolts are simply assembled dry because cost"

That's my point. Your veering off on applications that qualify as the specialty application I keep mentioning, even though you admittedly use some form of lube as well. There is a reason for this and it comes down to achieving the proper clamping force while maintaining the integrity of the fastener and not going beyond it's intended yield. Those last two are often seen with dry fasteners, particularly when assembled/disassembled often.
You don't just add lube to add lube, it's all application specific. I don't specify for lube in a precision clean room operation, so dry torques are calculated. Lube is NOT the driving factor achieves the correct clamping force. The correct clamping force is achieved by calculating the correct torque based on what you want in the system it's being used in. Dry bolt, wet bolt, material properties etc. This torque is calculated by the load the system needs to withstand....the requirement

I also very much disagree with your assessment that lube causes a false torque. If a lubed fastener requires less torque to achieve a specified clamping force than a dry fastener, where is the extra energy being applied in the case of the dry fastener?
It certainly does if the torque is supposed to be applied dry.
Example...dry torque is supposed to be 75 ft-lbf
If you lube this bolt and apply 75 ft-lbf with your torque wrench, in reality, this bolt will be torqued to somewhere in the 100 ft-lbf vicinity.

Most standards assume a "dry torque" and therefore calculations are required for some (not all) lubes. This in no way defines dry assembly as being preferable, or better for the longevity of the fastener. Lube prevents galling and corrosion that dry fasteners are subjected too. One just must know and understand the effect the lube has on the final torque as I've noted above.
I agree with this

We're probably trying to say the same thing here.
 

Jr mason

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Location
Andover, Ohio
TDI
01 Beetle 5 speed
It certainly does if the torque is supposed to be applied dry.
Example...dry torque is supposed to be 75 ft-lbf
If you lube this bolt and apply 75 ft-lbf with your torque wrench, in reality, this bolt will be torqued to somewhere in the 100 ft-lbf vicinity.

Or you just use Chesterton 725 like I initially stated.....OR use the proper coefficient of whatever lube your using.

I'm not trying to argue semantics but it is pretty much worthless comparing hardware on a VW to hardware on a rocket ship, LOL. My point is, lube only preserves fasteners. It prevents alot of scenarios that can and do happen with dry thread engagement. SS bolting is extremely susceptible to galling. Lubricant solves that. Pipe fitters don't thread pipe dry, they either use teflon tape or pipe dope (which is primarily a lubricant, NOT a sealant). Using neither is sure to result in leaks.
I could go on but I hope you get my drift.

I'm not an engineer but I do have 20 years of hands on experience as a mechanical contractor specializing in the chemical industry. Systems that use anywhere from 5/8 bolts/studs up to 2-1/2" diameter studs. Systems ranging from 1500*F to systems that run well below zero (anhydrous ammonia chillers, brine systems, etc). In 20 years I've not ran across one instance where a pipe, exchanger, reactor, etc didn't benefit from properly lubing the fasteners prior to install. In fact, most end up getting cut off if they were assembled dry. I've had to cut my fair share from people being lazy and not applying lube before installation.
 

U4ick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
Location
texas
TDI
2003 jetta tdi
Interesting discussion..........I've learned a lot, you both make valid points and I think are pretty much on the same page.

OP.....You say you "turned it up to six" and snapped the bolt. I was going to say to throw your HF torque wrench in the trash but realized you live in Canada. If you have a cheap Chinese equivalent throw it in the trash.

Anyone working on their own vehicle should invest in quality torque wrenches. I have 1/2", 3/8"and 1/4" drive. A quality 1/4" drive is critical in low torque applications like manifold, valve cover, oil pan, transmission oil pan, etc. bolts. I hate leaks.

When I am arguing with myself about buying a quality tool I take my car to couple of places and get a quote for the work I need done, then go and buy the tool and feel like I got a bargain.
 

Nuje

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Location
Island near Vancouver
TDI
2015 Sportwagen; Golf GLS 2003; 2016 A3 e-tron
VW's bolts typically have a fairly robust anti-corrosion coating; it's plainly obvious on things like the ball joint bolts (aftermarket often includes bolts/plate) - even here on the West Coast, within a year, those are rust held together by a bit of metal, whereas VW still have their silver look to them.

I know the rust belt didn't come by the name by accident, but doesn't using VW's coated bolts obviate the need for a lube and thus introducing potential error into torque fastening?
 

KrashDH

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Location
Washington
TDI
2002 Golf
VW's bolts typically have a fairly robust anti-corrosion coating; it's plainly obvious on things like the ball joint bolts (aftermarket often includes bolts/plate) - even here on the West Coast, within a year, those are rust held together by a bit of metal, whereas VW still have their silver look to them.

I know the rust belt didn't come by the name by accident, but doesn't using VW's coated bolts obviate the need for a lube and thus introducing potential error into torque fastening?
VW's bolts do have a corrosion coating yes. Where the lube comes is is when you are removing in the future. Surface rust can adhere to the coating and what they're being threaded into, which can make it VERY difficult to remove in the same way as an other bolt. So while yes, the bolts aren't going to rust (they stay gray in color) which is good for strength and metallurgy properties, standing water in between the threads usually can create a surface rust from the component's threads the bolt is threaded into, they you get that "bond" again.
 

Jr mason

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Location
Andover, Ohio
TDI
01 Beetle 5 speed
VW's bolts typically have a fairly robust anti-corrosion coating; it's plainly obvious on things like the ball joint bolts (aftermarket often includes bolts/plate) - even here on the West Coast, within a year, those are rust held together by a bit of metal, whereas VW still have their silver look to them.

I know the rust belt didn't come by the name by accident, but doesn't using VW's coated bolts obviate the need for a lube and thus introducing potential error into torque fastening?
Adding to what KrashDH notes,

That coating is a galvanized coating which does provide for a lower torque coefficient when compared to a standard bolt. Since Krash has friends in the automotive business maybe he can expand on this but my observation is this is done to help prevent the fastener from seizing while providing a marginal "lubricant" on initial installation to prevent galling from dry assembly. Naturally this wears off the more it is removed/installed, and subsequently requires another type of lubricant to prevent seizing/galling. Think suspension/steering components here.
 

Blacktree

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2015
Location
Central FL
TDI
'02 Jetta 5-spd
Below are pics of what the old o ring looked like and the new one in the flange before installation:

That looks familiar...



On small bolts like that, I avoid using thread locker. Actually, I prefer to use anti-seize. Last thing I want is a bolt broken off in the cylinder head. Like mentioned in a previous post, torque needs to be reduced to account for the anti-seize. I prefer to reduce it by 25%, just to be conservative.
 

WolfgangVW

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2011
Location
Alberta, Canada
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI - Manual
Interesting discussion..........I've learned a lot, you both make valid points and I think are pretty much on the same page.

OP.....You say you "turned it up to six" and snapped the bolt. I was going to say to throw your HF torque wrench in the trash but realized you live in Canada. If you have a cheap Chinese equivalent throw it in the trash.

Anyone working on their own vehicle should invest in quality torque wrenches. I have 1/2", 3/8"and 1/4" drive. A quality 1/4" drive is critical in low torque applications like manifold, valve cover, oil pan, transmission oil pan, etc. bolts. I hate leaks.

When I am arguing with myself about buying a quality tool I take my car to couple of places and get a quote for the work I need done, then go and buy the tool and feel like I got a bargain.
Thanks yes it’s time for an upgrade in the torque wrench department ! I got away lucky this time. I have yet to top up with coolant and run but hope I’m leak free
 

WolfgangVW

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2011
Location
Alberta, Canada
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI - Manual
That looks familiar...



On small bolts like that, I avoid using thread locker. Actually, I prefer to use anti-seize. Last thing I want is a bolt broken off in the cylinder head. Like mentioned in a previous post, torque needs to be reduced to account for the anti-seize. I prefer to reduce it by 25%, just to be conservative.
Ok perfect. I ended up lightly lubing with oil before installation and torqued with my smallest ratchet by feel based on krashes explanation of foot pounds. Will reconnect remaining hoses tomorrow and top up and fingers crossed I will be leak free
 

KrashDH

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Location
Washington
TDI
2002 Golf
Adding to what KrashDH notes,

That coating is a galvanized coating which does provide for a lower torque coefficient when compared to a standard bolt. Since Krash has friends in the automotive business maybe he can expand on this but my observation is this is done to help prevent the fastener from seizing while providing a marginal "lubricant" on initial installation to prevent galling from dry assembly. Naturally this wears off the more it is removed/installed, and subsequently requires another type of lubricant to prevent seizing/galling. Think suspension/steering components here.
Agree with this. The removal and installation will wear on the threads. So it's super beneficial maybe for the first couple times but after that it will act as any other bolt.

The other thing though, is the majority of VWs bolts are TTY...so they're only supposed to be installed once and when removed, discarded and replaced. So in theory, the coating does its job. But when these get reused, the coating will wear
 

Fahrvegnugen

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Location
Burlington Vt
TDI
01 golf 1.9 alh gls silver
The galling and corrosion are where the extra energy goes when torquing a dry fastener. Which is why lube changes the torque required. Lube is almost always preferable, maybe even enjoyable! Except on wheel lugs.
 

Rrusse11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Location
PA Deutsch Country
TDI
2002 Golf, 5spd; 05 Jeep CRD
So never seize, et al, are permissable for torqued fasteners with the caveat that a friction reduction factor is applied.
Fahrvegnugen notes the exception above for wheel lugs.

I wonder if a light beeswax application would be suitable, should help to waterproof/seal the threads and help to prevent
corrosion and galling without too much friction reduction. I've never felt I had a problem with my VW lug bolts,
but the Jeep lugnuts are more of a concern after my first tire rotation. Different standards of thread tolerances
perhaps. I have been using Krash's waterproof grease on everything else, it certainly feels and works like it'll do the job
long term. And I do have a small jar of the fancy nickel based anti seize.

Any thoughts or recommendations from the experts? I do have a good 1/2" torque wrench and now am in the habit of
carefully installing my wheel lugs.
 

KrashDH

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Location
Washington
TDI
2002 Golf
You have to grossly over torque lug nuts for them to become an issue. Torque wrench variations on a GOOD quality torque wrench are around +/-10%....9 ft/lb on our cars. You have to think about all the things that come into play too. It's not just the friction coefficient between the threads, but also the coefficient between the wheel chamfer and the lug nut. Are your wheels chrome, powder coated? How about the lug nuts? Rusty? Shiny? Is there any lube at those interfaces?

It's the stretching of the studs then shock loading them is what causes then to fail in shear. Honestly, a light coating of something to protect the threads, wipe off any excess, torque as normal, motor on.

Been doing this on all my rigs drive I've been driving and never sheared a lug off. If you add a bit of thread corrosion protection that you think is dropping the friction coefficient, drop your torque setting on the wrench 5-10 ft lb. Not going to hurt anything.

The ones that usually run into the problems are the guys using the 1/2" breaker bar to torque their lugs by "feel".
 

Rrusse11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Location
PA Deutsch Country
TDI
2002 Golf, 5spd; 05 Jeep CRD
Thanks Krash, I may well try a bit of beeswax. Cabinetmaker's trick on wooden drawer slides, DON'T use beeswax,
it's sticky. Parafin wax (oil base), most candles, has wood on wood sliding smoothly.
 
Top