U.S. Comeback?

Twinkieflyer

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No diesel cars for sure. Last of the American ones were the Chevrolet Cruze and Equinox, and the GMC Terrain.

You can get the new inline 6 diesel in a Tahoe/Suburban/Yukon/Escalade. All you need is the better part of $100K to spend. :eek:
From quick look, $100k is a pretty big exaggeration on prices online. And we spent 80k on our last GL.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I'm going by what I've seen as sticker prices in reviews. One Escalade review I read showed the truck had an MSRP well north of $100K. I realize a Yukon or Tahoe will cost less. Still, given the build quality and depreciation, it's more than I would ever spend.
 

jmodge

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I'm going by what I've seen as sticker prices in reviews. One Escalade review I read showed the truck had an MSRP well north of $100K. I realize a Yukon or Tahoe will cost less. Still, given the build quality and depreciation, it's more than I would ever spend.
I’ve bought 3 houses and built one, haven’t spent what those Suburbans cost on any of them. I’d love to have one, but I just can’t see myself spending that kind of dough on a vehicle....ouch
 

Twinkieflyer

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The high country version of the Tahoe I looked with all the bells and whistles was 68k. With the center isle, remote start and several other features, my wife didn’t feel she was giving up anything after the test drive, other than maybe a little snooty factor. We have two GL-350s. They are nice but we are looking for something else.
 

atc98002

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Personally, the new Tahoe’s are my top choice. My Mercedes salesman is not keen on my choice but the GLS are really fuel hogs.
I didn't realize the Tahoe still had a diesel option. BMW and Mercedes don't have one any longer. Beyond that you have to go into pickup trucks for diesel. Looks like you can get the base trim Tahoe for $52,790, but that's pretty bare bones and only 2WD. Price goes up pretty quick once you go with the higher trim levels and/or add options. And in the end the Tahoe is way too big for me.
 

farnhamassoc

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06 Jetta tdi, 09 TDI SPORTWAGEN 2011 Audi a3 TDI. VW caddy turbo diesel... Various vw split window busses
maybe if the US and California gives back the 7 billion......AINT HAPPENING.....
 

farnhamassoc

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NO MORE DIESELS In the US... VW WILL NEVER DO IT but there is this.....
 

turbobrick240

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^Didn't watch the video, but that looks like a sweet conversion! But I wouldn't use backyard conversions to judge EV range.
 

farnhamassoc

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06 Jetta tdi, 09 TDI SPORTWAGEN 2011 Audi a3 TDI. VW caddy turbo diesel... Various vw split window busses
Just talks about all the things that change range.....Like Headlights, A/C, Heat, Extreme cold outside, Uphill, 2 people in the car, Loaded with stuff in the trunk, Rain....Drag. wind drag, Unlike a diesel and or gas car. These things HEAVILY effect range. especially uphill. No speculation here this is reality. They were built for city driving. Everything is based on efficiency. Not for me. I am all about long distance driving. TDI is the only option.
 

atc98002

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Extreme cold outside, Uphill, 2 people in the car, Loaded with stuff in the trunk, Rain....Drag. wind drag, Unlike a diesel and or gas car.
Those things all affect a gas or diesel car as well. Perhaps not to the same extent, but yes they do have an impact. I'll give you that cabin heat doesn't affect an ICE vehicle for it's range, as it's just waste heat anyway. But that excess heat means you've lost efficiency from the process of burning fuel, and if the heat isn't needed for the cabin it's simply dumped outdoors, providing nothing for efficient use of the fuel.

I agree with you that for long distance driving diesel is still the best fuel. But for people that aren't covering distances like that, electric is a very good option. And the majority of today's drivers seldom reach 100 miles per day behind the wheel, averaging closer to 30 miles.
 

kjclow

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If I only use it for commuting, including coming home for lunch, I could get by with a 100 mile range over a week. However, I'm still putting on almost 20k miles a year on my truck. Lots of trips to explore different areas via bikes and hikes.
 

farnhamassoc

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Those things all affect a gas or diesel car as well. Perhaps not to the same extent, but yes they do have an impact. I'll give you that cabin heat doesn't affect an ICE vehicle for it's range, as it's just waste heat anyway. But that excess heat means you've lost efficiency from the process of burning fuel, and if the heat isn't needed for the cabin it's simply dumped outdoors, providing nothing for efficient use of the fuel.

I agree with you that for long distance driving diesel is still the best fuel. But for people that aren't covering distances like that, electric is a very good option. And the majority of today's drivers seldom reach 100 miles per day behind the wheel, averaging closer to 30 miles.
Yea BUT since electric vehicles are based on efficiency, they effect them much more. To have a a battery that would give you the same energy as a tank of fuel would take up more than a 10x10x10 room and weigh like 10k lbs. There are studies on this the best ones by Engineering explained on youtube. This is why diesel trucks are a long way away from working out. HILLS....and WEIGHT......critically effect range. I can load my rabbit pickup with more weight than it will hold on the suspension. and still get like 450 to a tank. (done it) With no weight it gets 500. Same with my tdi. You put the electric car in just a RAIN storm and it looses 30%. these are quotes from people who have studied this.
 

farnhamassoc

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If I only use it for commuting, including coming home for lunch, I could get by with a 100 mile range over a week. However, I'm still putting on almost 20k miles a year on my truck. Lots of trips to explore different areas via bikes and hikes.
I do these runs where I drive all over the state of CA. 400 to 800 miles a DAY....No way I could do that in any electric car. With tools luggage and 2 people with hills mountains. I would be Lucky to get 120 miles in an ID4....and that would be a overstatement. probably only 100 on many fill ups.
 

quartersaw

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Yea BUT since electric vehicles are based on efficiency, they effect them much more. To have a a battery that would give you the same energy as a tank of fuel would take up more than a 10x10x10 room and weigh like 10k lbs. There are studies on this the best ones by Engineering explained on youtube. This is why diesel trucks are a long way away from working out. HILLS....and WEIGHT......critically effect range. I can load my rabbit pickup with more weight than it will hold on the suspension. and still get like 450 to a tank. (done it) With no weight it gets 500. Same with my tdi. You put the electric car in just a RAIN storm and it looses 30%. these are quotes from people who have studied this.
In the history of battery technology, storage capacity has gone up about 10X. To reach the point of equaling Gasoline, we would need an additional 15X, in storage capacity. That is a pretty steep hill to climb.
 

farnhamassoc

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Exactly and make it AFFORDABLE......it is not just about technology. It is about readily available materials to meet demand. Honestly I think were light years away and that is wishful thinking. They have technology to do it but with materials that are so precious that it would cost millions of dollars to make one car. And Mining the materials would be worse than the environmental impact of using Fossil
 

atc98002

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I completely agree that there are still use cases when liquid fuel, especially diesel, cannot be replaced by an EV. So think it will change soon, but I believe it's further in the future than that. Weight is the biggest issue with batteries at this time. Tech advances will fix that, eventually. But I don't believe that day isn't imminent. Rain certainly does impact my range, but nowhere near 30%. I made a 130 round trip to my parents during some lousy rainy weather. I used 10 more miles of range than I actually travelled, and freeway speed also drops the range, so the rain was less than a 10% impact.
 

turbobrick240

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In the history of battery technology, storage capacity has gone up about 10X. To reach the point of equaling Gasoline, we would need an additional 15X, in storage capacity. That is a pretty steep hill to climb.
Batteries don't need to reach the energy density of gasoline/diesel. The electric drivetrains are 3x as efficient. Take a look at the Pikes Peak hill climb record holder- hint, it's an EV. Gas and diesel fuel doesn't seem to be getting any cheaper these days either. All the really matters is vehicle cost, fuel cost, range, and recharge time. No vehicle will ever be perfect in every area. I'm sure that back when the Model T was displacing horses for travel, one of the arguments against them being made was: "hey, I can't turn this infernal contraption loose in my field and have it refuel itself." It caught on anyhow.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Batteries don't need to reach the energy density of gasoline/diesel. The electric drivetrains are 3x as efficient.
Yes, but they take far longer to "refuel." For daily driving where you can charge at night, that's clearly not a problem. But for longer drives it is, regardless of whether or not people feel they do it successfully.

One of my colleagues has an ID.4. His wife pretty much exclusively drives it, mostly shuttling kids around their town. I'm guessing that most trips are less than 5 miles, and she might cover 20 miles in a day. Perfect use case for an EV, and far better than driving any kind of ICE in those conditions. But if I want to take my son out to breakfast 125 miles away in towns in Western MA where I've never seen a charger, not so much. Unless I want to hang out at a Mass Pike service area once or twice during the trip. Which I don't. This is the rub.
 

turbobrick240

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Yes, but they take far longer to "refuel." For daily driving where you can charge at night, that's clearly not a problem. But for longer drives it is, regardless of whether or not people feel they do it successfully.

One of my colleagues has an ID.4. His wife pretty much exclusively drives it, mostly shuttling kids around their town. I'm guessing that most trips are less than 5 miles, and she might cover 20 miles in a day. Perfect use case for an EV, and far better than driving any kind of ICE in those conditions. But if I want to take my son out to breakfast 125 miles away in towns in Western MA where I've never seen a charger, not so much. Unless I want to hang out at a Mass Pike service area once or twice during the trip. Which I don't. This is the rub.
I'm sure you could make it work without ruining the visit. 15-20 minutes relaxing, stretching legs, checking e-mail/newsfeed isn't a big deal. I bet your son is a thoughtful guy, and would be happy to meet you partway. Plus, new charging locations are sprouting up like weeds. Take a look on Plugshare.
 
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El Dobro

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Exactly and make it AFFORDABLE......it is not just about technology. It is about readily available materials to meet demand. Honestly I think were light years away and that is wishful thinking. They have technology to do it but with materials that are so precious that it would cost millions of dollars to make one car. And Mining the materials would be worse than the environmental impact of using Fossil
 

farnhamassoc

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I never said they Werent efficient or clean.....My argument is they are not practical for everyone. Some people need a longer range than they will ever get to. They are Light years away from having anything near the same range as a Gas or diesel car. That is a Major issue with lots of people.

Electric cars will always only be for City driving and short range. They are great and clean for that but not everyone lives in cities.

 

wxman

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Just to be clear, life-cycle assessment (LCA) models include all upstream activity including well drilling, pipeline construction, refining, and transportation to the retailer, as shown in Argonne National Laboratory's GREET model diagram:


 

atc98002

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Electric cars will always only be for City driving and short range.
I don't believe that. But it also depends on your definition of "short range". There are EVs available today that can travel 400-500 miles at freeway speeds. My Bolt will do over 200 miles, as long as it's not winter, then I'm more like 170 miles. Other than a vacation trip, the longest distance I travel with any regularity is 130 miles round trip to my parents. And in most cases, when we take a vacation we fly.
 

farnhamassoc

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OK even if its 150 I cant do it.....They are not for everyone. Claiming that 90% of people are the same is FALSE......your talking about city people not people who dont live in cities. and are very far from them.....There are a lot of them Here in the US...Many many people. and people like me Who do drive long distances regularly. I cant do electric. I drive some days over 800 miles in one day.....With a TDI SportWagen full of tools Sometimes ladder on the roof.....Now you E----vehicles guys tell me how I can do that....Ad the wind drag of the ladder, Driving from southern CA to northern CA.....5000 Alt grade. 2 people in the car.....WHAT KIND OR REALISITIC RANGE am I going to get. 500lbs of tools 400lbs of people. NOT DOABLE.....I do this in 1 day 5 to 6 times a year. AND I have months where I do it all month every day 400mi a day sometimes even more. Time limit work that needs to be done during business hours. Charging would totally screw me over.

Making them for EVERYONE is NOT FAIR.......WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT....I AM NOT LIKE YOU
 

farnhamassoc

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06 Jetta tdi, 09 TDI SPORTWAGEN 2011 Audi a3 TDI. VW caddy turbo diesel... Various vw split window busses
I completely agree that there are still use cases when liquid fuel, especially diesel, cannot be replaced by an EV. So think it will change soon, but I believe it's further in the future than that. Weight is the biggest issue with batteries at this time. Tech advances will fix that, eventually. But I don't believe that day isn't imminent. Rain certainly does impact my range, but nowhere near 30%. I made a 130 round trip to my parents during some lousy rainy weather. I used 10 more miles of range than I actually travelled, and freeway speed also drops the range, so the rain was less than a 10% impact.
good to know. I didnt really believe it when some E vehicle guys said 30.....Not my study. I have specific needs. and Cant rationalize spending 30 to 40 grand to find out that it wont work for me. I am pretty sure it wont work for me. I dont commute......I am a business and range is my best friend. Some of the jobs I do require me to drive every day 300 to 500 miles a day for a month straight......and I do work at business locations that have specific hours. No after hours work. So the charging time would totally not work out.
I think for commuters who can afford a electric car they absolutely should pull the trigger. But people wanting to push them on everyone is totally disrespectful to their needs. It is totally WRONG......
 

turbobrick240

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OK even if its 150 I cant do it.....They are not for everyone. Claiming that 90% of people are the same is FALSE......your talking about city people not people who dont live in cities. and are very far from them.....There are a lot of them Here in the US...Many many people. and people like me Who do drive long distances regularly. I cant do electric. I drive some days over 800 miles in one day.....With a TDI SportWagen full of tools Sometimes ladder on the roof.....Now you E----vehicles guys tell me how I can do that....Ad the wind drag of the ladder, Driving from southern CA to northern CA.....5000 Alt grade. 2 people in the car.....WHAT KIND OR REALISITIC RANGE am I going to get. 500lbs of tools 400lbs of people. NOT DOABLE.....I do this in 1 day 5 to 6 times a year. AND I have months where I do it all month every day 400mi a day sometimes even more. Time limit work that needs to be done during business hours. Charging would totally screw me over.

Making them for EVERYONE is NOT FAIR.......WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT....I AM NOT LIKE YOU
Relax, nobody is forcing you to buy an EV.
I think when many people hear the anti-EV disinformation parroted around enough in the media, they begin to absorb the lies as truths. Maybe they fear the changes that the future brings and want to believe the lies. Recent world events have made it even more clear to me that supporting regimes like Putin's with my income is entirely undesirable. There are enormous social costs associated with fossil fuels on top of the environmental costs.
 

farnhamassoc

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06 Jetta tdi, 09 TDI SPORTWAGEN 2011 Audi a3 TDI. VW caddy turbo diesel... Various vw split window busses
Just to be clear, life-cycle assessment (LCA) models include all upstream activity including well drilling, pipeline construction, refining, and transportation to the retailer, as shown in Argonne National Laboratory's GREET model diagram:


I have been Saying for years. CALIFORNIA......If they want to do things RIGHT.......They should be looking at the total footprint from Manufacturing to demolition for everything. take those numbers and bring them all down......THEY DONT WANT TO DO THAT......because many will loose their jobs. so they say lest bring down NOX.....even if it raises HC or CO......just using those chems for an example. Like paint emissions they say just bring down the VOC....Then it makes the paint not last so you need to paint more often. Ad up the labor emissions, new paint emissions, having to make money to pay for a new paint job on your house emissions from that, and you are at a net LOSS....
Pertaining to Electric vehicles. For people who can use them and benefit from them they are at a net POSITIVE.....They clearly from manufacturing to demolition cause less pollution.

MY only argument is they are NOTTTTTTTTT a 1 size fits all.
AND when it comes to Long Haul TRUCKS....HEAVY WEIGHT........NO not even. Bad IDEA!!!!!! and HUGE security risk. One power outage and NO FOOD.....
[
 

farnhamassoc

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06 Jetta tdi, 09 TDI SPORTWAGEN 2011 Audi a3 TDI. VW caddy turbo diesel... Various vw split window busses
Relax, nobody is forcing you to buy an EV.
I think when many people hear the anti-EV disinformation parroted around enough in the media, they begin to absorb the lies as truths. Maybe they fear the changes that the future brings and want to believe the lies. Recent world events have made it even more clear to me that supporting regimes like Putin's with my income is entirely undesirable. There are enormous social costs associated with fossil fuels on top of the environmental costs.
I live in CA.....They are forcing it 2035.......DONE
 
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