U.S. Comeback?

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Golf R is here for '22 also. Not a high volume model, but still popular with enthusiasts. If VW had redesigned the eGolf as a ground up EV with range of the ID3, they'd have much better sales, imo.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
You can buy a MK8 Golf with a 2.0 TDI and 6 speed manual in Europe. But it still has the all digital dash. Not a fan.
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
Golf R is here for '22 also. Not a high volume model, but still popular with enthusiasts. If VW had redesigned the eGolf as a ground up EV with range of the ID3, they'd have much better sales, imo.

I fully, 100% agree with you on the eGolf. That's how you 'save' the Golf.

Regarding the Golf R though:

They've sold 5 Golf R's this year. It's clearly a halo model with no customers. For a so-called 'halo' model to mean anything (i.e. drive customers to your door to sell other stuff), they have to get written up, adored by the press, and at least have SOME dedicated fan base or audience to spread the glory and the message. When your so-called halo is an ephemeral ghost and only 5 exist in the entire USA, it's a nothing model. It serves no purpose except to dilute the brand. VW could take a hard look at themselves and ask themselves: What does VW stand for, a little of everything? What are we the pack leader in?

If they were smart, they'd launch an electric, sub $27,000 car and at the same time, introduce a halo model electric vehicle to outshine and outcompete anything Tesla has. The halo could be a truck even. They could totally out-Elon Elon's hype machine.
 
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turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
There are smart people at VW now. Diess, in particular. I think the Taycan was supposed to be the halo model that would put Tesla in its place. It sort of did briefly, until the Plaid S came out. I'm not sure how important halo cars really are for sales. My guess is not very.

As far as the meager Golf R sales, those must be leftover vehicles. I don't think a '21 model was available here. Maybe not a '20 either. I know my little local VW dealership usually sold at least a couple R's per year when current M.Y. Rs were offered.
 

Phyloader

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2021
Location
Napa, California
TDI
2010 Jetta SW
If VW made a diesel hybrid that would be my top choice for a new car.

They could get around emissions laws by just having the electric motor compensate power when needed to cut down on NOx.
 

DPM

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 16, 2001
Location
Newtownards, N. Ireland
TDI
2019 Rav4 AWD Hybrid, Citroen C4 BlueHDI
^ which won't happen even for the Euro market because they screwed themselves so badly. Anyway, SI technology- specifically Atkins-cycle has such high efficiency that diesel's hardly worthwhile now...
 

g8keapor

New member
Joined
Jan 21, 2022
Location
VA
TDI
'04 Jetta, '13 Passat, '16 RAM 3500 6.7 Cummins, '22 Suburban 3.0 Duramax Diesel
So to resurrect an old thread I think things might just be around the corner for a couple reasons. First and foremost with all the hype the actual sales from the new VW or other German EV's is rather dissapointing. Increase cost in fuel with zero increase in affordability or the ability to rapidly charge a battery EV. The extreme reduction of range when weight load is applied (Diesel trucks get 600 miles while even Teslas own planned truck wont be able to tow their own trailer more than 100 miles because of the extra load on the batteries.) Lastly the increased competition, range, and a better ride while being quieter than gas. I can attest to this one personally. I actually no longer own my TDi's I traded my Jetta on a brand new '13 Passat TDI SEL premium and two years later they gave me just shy of 25k for it with 125,000 miles (yeah my commute at the time was over 200 miles round trip.) I took that money and put a down payment on my RAM 3500 with a 6.7 Cummins diesel. Yeah I am a diesel freak but I do use it for towing quite often. I still have the truck but when we had our third child we decided to trade in our '18 Atlas in on the 2022 Suburban High Country with the 3.0 duramax diesel. To compare the Suburban is actually quieter than the Atlas VR6 is, has WAY WAY WAY more room not to mention you can have all three rows of seats deployed and still be able to fit a stroller for 2 and 3+ full size suitcases in the back with room to spare. But the really really good part is that SUV gets 30-33MPG on average without even trying. Oh and the head gasket wont fail within 15k miles because they improperly torqued them at the factory.... Yeah VW I am looking at you... There is such a high demand for the Subruban they have shut down orders at least until the end of 2022. We ordered ours in May of 2021 and ended up with a 2022 number 6 off the line that we received on Oct 29th. Diesels are now available in 1500 trucks, and the K1500 SUV's (Suburban, Yukon Denali XL, and Escalade ESV as well as the Tahoe, Colorado, standard Yukon Denali, and Escalades. However, it's not just GM doing this. Lincoln has a Diesel coming out, Jeep and Dodge have multiple models that offer the FCA 3.0 liters even the new wagoneer is slated to get a diesel soon, Nissan has enetered the market as well with vans etc. Now I know what you are thinking thats only in larger vehicles and this is true but currently 4 out of 5 vehicles sold are SUV's or trucks in the USA. The next thought is this is temporary until more EV's make it out there. Well not so fast. For starters towing in an EV is abismal. Sure they can pull weight to the tune of what a 2500 can pull the problem is the range. Even when hauling under the standard 1500 towing capacity of 7700 pounds the best range so far has been about 100 miles and that is with expanded capacity batteries in prototypes. (My cousin was a Tesla engineer and now works for RIvian and in both vehicles neither could go much farther than 100 miles when towing 5500 lbs.) The other issue that no one wants to touch is cost. Any appearance of a reduction in cost of an EV that you see now is rapidly going to disappear with the introduction of more models because Lithium has a perceived scarcity at the magnitude of 100 times more scarce true or false than that of any other energy material source including Helium. Projections are that the cost of batteries will rise by 45% by 2025 which I tend to believe when you look at militaries around the world. None of them at least not publicly that I have seen are even exploring battery power beyond small drones or robots. the only alternative fuel they have been looking at is hydrogen and that says a lot. Sure auto manufacturers would love to go EV because they could reduce their labor force by upwards of 60% while dropping inventory production costs at the same or greater rates because EV's need fewer parts but people need to be able to afford them for that to happen. Given increased battery prices and no improvement in battery life coupled with an unsolvable range anxiety and even if a charging station is empty the best full charge takes 45 minutes or more public adoption will be extremely hesitant. I know I know there are all these people saying that by 2030 everyone will want them but lets not forget these were the same groups that claimed we would be living on the moon by the 80's. Ultimately there needs to be public interest be it willingly or forced to make it happen and it's clear with the addition of so many deisel options since VWAG being the last to exit of the european brands in 2018 that there is a strong demand for their return. So strong that you have to wait for an unknown number of months just to put in an order because they are having issues meeting the demand for them. Sure its not a guarantee that we will see the cars return en mass but there are large talks being held quietly and the stocks for companies that make diesel engines for some of these brands are reflecting that something big is brewing because the share prices are rising consistently even when other vast swaths of the market are falling thanks to.....
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Helium is an energy source? I just saw an article talking about how Cummins and Isuzu are collaborating on a new electric powertrain for heavy trucks. When Cummins is going electric, the fat lady has sung. Shaking your fist at the sky won't change a thing.
 

jmodge

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 5speed daily commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/502's backroad cruiser
So to resurrect an old thread I think things might just be around the corner for a couple reasons. First and foremost with all the hype the actual sales from the new VW or other German EV's is rather dissapointing. Increase cost in fuel with zero increase in affordability or the ability to rapidly charge a battery EV. The extreme reduction of range when weight load is applied (Diesel trucks get 600 miles while even Teslas own planned truck wont be able to tow their own trailer more than 100 miles because of the extra load on the batteries.) Lastly the increased competition, range, and a better ride while being quieter than gas. I can attest to this one personally. I actually no longer own my TDi's I traded my Jetta on a brand new '13 Passat TDI SEL premium and two years later they gave me just shy of 25k for it with 125,000 miles (yeah my commute at the time was over 200 miles round trip.) I took that money and put a down payment on my RAM 3500 with a 6.7 Cummins diesel. Yeah I am a diesel freak but I do use it for towing quite often. I still have the truck but when we had our third child we decided to trade in our '18 Atlas in on the 2022 Suburban High Country with the 3.0 duramax diesel. To compare the Suburban is actually quieter than the Atlas VR6 is, has WAY WAY WAY more room not to mention you can have all three rows of seats deployed and still be able to fit a stroller for 2 and 3+ full size suitcases in the back with room to spare. But the really really good part is that SUV gets 30-33MPG on average without even trying. Oh and the head gasket wont fail within 15k miles because they improperly torqued them at the factory.... Yeah VW I am looking at you... There is such a high demand for the Subruban they have shut down orders at least until the end of 2022. We ordered ours in May of 2021 and ended up with a 2022 number 6 off the line that we received on Oct 29th. Diesels are now available in 1500 trucks, and the K1500 SUV's (Suburban, Yukon Denali XL, and Escalade ESV as well as the Tahoe, Colorado, standard Yukon Denali, and Escalades. However, it's not just GM doing this. Lincoln has a Diesel coming out, Jeep and Dodge have multiple models that offer the FCA 3.0 liters even the new wagoneer is slated to get a diesel soon, Nissan has enetered the market as well with vans etc. Now I know what you are thinking thats only in larger vehicles and this is true but currently 4 out of 5 vehicles sold are SUV's or trucks in the USA. The next thought is this is temporary until more EV's make it out there. Well not so fast. For starters towing in an EV is abismal. Sure they can pull weight to the tune of what a 2500 can pull the problem is the range. Even when hauling under the standard 1500 towing capacity of 7700 pounds the best range so far has been about 100 miles and that is with expanded capacity batteries in prototypes. (My cousin was a Tesla engineer and now works for RIvian and in both vehicles neither could go much farther than 100 miles when towing 5500 lbs.) The other issue that no one wants to touch is cost. Any appearance of a reduction in cost of an EV that you see now is rapidly going to disappear with the introduction of more models because Lithium has a perceived scarcity at the magnitude of 100 times more scarce true or false than that of any other energy material source including Helium. Projections are that the cost of batteries will rise by 45% by 2025 which I tend to believe when you look at militaries around the world. None of them at least not publicly that I have seen are even exploring battery power beyond small drones or robots. the only alternative fuel they have been looking at is hydrogen and that says a lot. Sure auto manufacturers would love to go EV because they could reduce their labor force by upwards of 60% while dropping inventory production costs at the same or greater rates because EV's need fewer parts but people need to be able to afford them for that to happen. Given increased battery prices and no improvement in battery life coupled with an unsolvable range anxiety and even if a charging station is empty the best full charge takes 45 minutes or more public adoption will be extremely hesitant. I know I know there are all these people saying that by 2030 everyone will want them but lets not forget these were the same groups that claimed we would be living on the moon by the 80's. Ultimately there needs to be public interest be it willingly or forced to make it happen and it's clear with the addition of so many deisel options since VWAG being the last to exit of the european brands in 2018 that there is a strong demand for their return. So strong that you have to wait for an unknown number of months just to put in an order because they are having issues meeting the demand for them. Sure its not a guarantee that we will see the cars return en mass but there are large talks being held quietly and the stocks for companies that make diesel engines for some of these brands are reflecting that something big is brewing because the share prices are rising consistently even when other vast swaths of the market are falling thanks to.....
Not to mention the lobbying power of the gas and oil industry....viva la diesel ‘burbans
 

TurboABA

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2010
Location
Kitchener, ON
TDI
RIP-2010 Jetta 6spd 2014 Touareg Execline
Not one singe approach is "best" at everything.....
Each technology has its advantages and useful application\use.... people try to make it about everything.... not everyone cares about towing... Electric class 7/8s would be very well suited for inner-city use, refuse trucks, and many other instances where you don't need lots of range or to tow 80k.
I know lots of people who live so close to their work, that they waste more fuel warming up their ICEV in their driveways or in the office parkinglot pre their 5 min drive to work or home for lunch.
Very few people these days have long commutes and\or serious towing needs which all these ev limitation would actually impact.
But like others have mentioned, it's all about the profits... has nothing to do with climate, or technology, or whatever other excuse we want to come up with.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Diesel makes sense in heavy and expensive vehicles. Pickups, big SUVs, luxury cars. The price of the vehicles also helps minimize the cost impact of the diesel emissions gear.

I think the biggest application for diesel over EV is for all the contractors/landscapers/delivery vehicles that tow or carry heavy loads. EVs perform poorly in those situations, and diesel is at its best. And over the road trucks, of course, where electric has yet to show any economic viability.

I love my small, light diesel cars, but sadly gasoline is probably a better option now, or a plug-in hybrid for most uses.
 
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jmodge

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 5speed daily commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/502's backroad cruiser
Fortunately for us consumer pigs in the U.S. of A, the best option is, whatever we want, from whatever we can afford, or whatever we can build from whatever choices those that control the gold feel like presenting to us. And that, is the way the fairy tale goes, like it or not.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Fortunately for us consumer pigs in the U.S. of A, the best option is, whatever we want, from whatever we can afford, or whatever we can build from whatever choices those that control the gold feel like presenting to us. And that, is the way the fairy tale goes, like it or not.
You're cheerful today. ;)
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Fortunately for us consumer pigs in the U.S. of A, the best option is, whatever we want, from whatever we can afford, or whatever we can build from whatever choices those that control the gold feel like presenting to us. And that, is the way the fairy tale goes, like it or not.
I knew it! Our Leprechaun overlords have conspired to take diesel away from us. Wait til JFK jr. finds out. ;)
 

jmodge

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 5speed daily commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/502's backroad cruiser

jmodge

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 5speed daily commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/502's backroad cruiser
Hmm, crackers, or maybe mushrooms
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
So to resurrect an old thread I think things might just be around the corner for a couple reasons. First and foremost with all the hype the actual sales from the new VW or other German EV's is rather dissapointing. Increase cost in fuel with zero increase in affordability or the ability to rapidly charge a battery EV. The extreme reduction of range when weight load is applied (Diesel trucks get 600 miles while even Teslas own planned truck wont be able to tow their own trailer more than 100 miles because of the extra load on the batteries.) Lastly the increased competition, range, and a better ride while being quieter than gas. I can attest to this one personally. I actually no longer own my TDi's I traded my Jetta on a brand new '13 Passat TDI SEL premium and two years later they gave me just shy of 25k for it with 125,000 miles (yeah my commute at the time was over 200 miles round trip.) I took that money and put a down payment on my RAM 3500 with a 6.7 Cummins diesel. Yeah I am a diesel freak but I do use it for towing quite often. I still have the truck but when we had our third child we decided to trade in our '18 Atlas in on the 2022 Suburban High Country with the 3.0 duramax diesel. To compare the Suburban is actually quieter than the Atlas VR6 is, has WAY WAY WAY more room not to mention you can have all three rows of seats deployed and still be able to fit a stroller for 2 and 3+ full size suitcases in the back with room to spare. But the really really good part is that SUV gets 30-33MPG on average without even trying. Oh and the head gasket wont fail within 15k miles because they improperly torqued them at the factory.... Yeah VW I am looking at you... There is such a high demand for the Subruban they have shut down orders at least until the end of 2022. We ordered ours in May of 2021 and ended up with a 2022 number 6 off the line that we received on Oct 29th. Diesels are now available in 1500 trucks, and the K1500 SUV's (Suburban, Yukon Denali XL, and Escalade ESV as well as the Tahoe, Colorado, standard Yukon Denali, and Escalades. However, it's not just GM doing this. Lincoln has a Diesel coming out, Jeep and Dodge have multiple models that offer the FCA 3.0 liters even the new wagoneer is slated to get a diesel soon, Nissan has enetered the market as well with vans etc. Now I know what you are thinking thats only in larger vehicles and this is true but currently 4 out of 5 vehicles sold are SUV's or trucks in the USA. The next thought is this is temporary until more EV's make it out there. Well not so fast. For starters towing in an EV is abismal. Sure they can pull weight to the tune of what a 2500 can pull the problem is the range. Even when hauling under the standard 1500 towing capacity of 7700 pounds the best range so far has been about 100 miles and that is with expanded capacity batteries in prototypes. (My cousin was a Tesla engineer and now works for RIvian and in both vehicles neither could go much farther than 100 miles when towing 5500 lbs.) The other issue that no one wants to touch is cost. Any appearance of a reduction in cost of an EV that you see now is rapidly going to disappear with the introduction of more models because Lithium has a perceived scarcity at the magnitude of 100 times more scarce true or false than that of any other energy material source including Helium. Projections are that the cost of batteries will rise by 45% by 2025 which I tend to believe when you look at militaries around the world. None of them at least not publicly that I have seen are even exploring battery power beyond small drones or robots. the only alternative fuel they have been looking at is hydrogen and that says a lot. Sure auto manufacturers would love to go EV because they could reduce their labor force by upwards of 60% while dropping inventory production costs at the same or greater rates because EV's need fewer parts but people need to be able to afford them for that to happen. Given increased battery prices and no improvement in battery life coupled with an unsolvable range anxiety and even if a charging station is empty the best full charge takes 45 minutes or more public adoption will be extremely hesitant. I know I know there are all these people saying that by 2030 everyone will want them but lets not forget these were the same groups that claimed we would be living on the moon by the 80's. Ultimately there needs to be public interest be it willingly or forced to make it happen and it's clear with the addition of so many deisel options since VWAG being the last to exit of the european brands in 2018 that there is a strong demand for their return. So strong that you have to wait for an unknown number of months just to put in an order because they are having issues meeting the demand for them. Sure its not a guarantee that we will see the cars return en mass but there are large talks being held quietly and the stocks for companies that make diesel engines for some of these brands are reflecting that something big is brewing because the share prices are rising consistently even when other vast swaths of the market are falling thanks to.....
You make some good points but others are off the mark. Since Ford has killed their 3l diesel, I doubt very much that Lincoln will be releasing anything with a diesel powertrain.

Lithium is very abundant across much of the world. The issue is getting to it. There is a very large vain in central NC but it will require strip mines. Anyone that grew up in western PA or central Iowa, or any other place that used strip mining, will tell you that it is one of the most environmental damaging mining methods.

Battery technologies will soon be rapidly changing. The chemists and engineers are working on charging and discharging rates to both speed up the charge times while increasing the range. That may also allow for higher towing capacity without sacrificing distance. I was looking at an article from Winnebago about an all electric class B RV. They were talking about a 125 mile range. That won't work for anyone that doesn't want to spend the week getting the state.
 

quartersaw

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Location
Albany, NY
TDI
2002 Jetta Wagon, '96 B4V,'99 2 door Golf
Fortunately for us consumer pigs in the U.S. of A, the best option is, whatever we want, from whatever we can afford, or whatever we can build from whatever choices those that control the gold feel like presenting to us. And that, is the way the fairy tale goes, like it or not.
Not quite. There are TDI Vans all over Mexico.
I want one.
 

g8keapor

New member
Joined
Jan 21, 2022
Location
VA
TDI
'04 Jetta, '13 Passat, '16 RAM 3500 6.7 Cummins, '22 Suburban 3.0 Duramax Diesel
You make some good points but others are off the mark. Since Ford has killed their 3l diesel, I doubt very much that Lincoln will be releasing anything with a diesel powertrain.

Lithium is very abundant across much of the world. The issue is getting to it. There is a very large vain in central NC but it will require strip mines. Anyone that grew up in western PA or central Iowa, or any other place that used strip mining, will tell you that it is one of the most environmental damaging mining methods.

Battery technologies will soon be rapidly changing. The chemists and engineers are working on charging and discharging rates to both speed up the charge times while increasing the range. That may also allow for higher towing capacity without sacrificing distance. I was looking at an article from Winnebago about an all electric class B RV. They were talking about a 125 mile range. That won't work for anyone that doesn't want to spend the week getting the state.
So the 3.0 diesel is back for Ford in 2023. They only stopped production over pets availability issues.

I know lithium is abundant which is why I said perceived scarcity and not actual scarcity though not that it matters much given the same people that want to kill oil would never allow strip mining.
The chemists and engineers have been working on batteries for years and saying something new is around the corner yet here we wait. So I guess define rapidly and soon?

Cutting charge times doesn’t change the discharge rate of a battery or increase range due to increased load. Even if it was 5 minutes who wants to stop every 100-150 miles to recharge when pulling a trailer. Also that assumes you can even get to a charger with a trailer. Most of them are parking spots and would require you to unhitch the trailer just to recharge which would effectively nullify any reduction in charge times.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
If I could define rapidly and soon without compromising my employment, I would.
 

Twinkieflyer

Active member
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Location
Blacksburg, Virginia
TDI
2002 ALH 5spd
We own two Mercedes, a BMW and a VW.
The Germans are screwing us and we will never buy another German car.
American cars have some good diesel choices but even if not I remain committed.

edited to satisfy someone
 
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atc98002

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
Location
Auburn WA
TDI
2014 Passat TDI SEL Premium (sold back), 2009 Jetta (sold back), 80 Rabbit diesel (long gone)
What American cars have good diesel choices? Other that full size trucks, I don't know of any diesels available in the US any longer.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
No diesel cars for sure. Last of the American ones were the Chevrolet Cruze and Equinox, and the GMC Terrain.

You can get the new inline 6 diesel in a Tahoe/Suburban/Yukon/Escalade. All you need is the better part of $100K to spend. :eek:
 
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