U.S. Comeback?

Daemon64

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The thing most people miss/ignore about the energy use of EVs for charging... and I cannot emphasize this enough;

EVs DO NOT USE GRID MIX

Take SPP for example. Last year my ISO SPP was ~25% wind. Yet if you were to look at the mix at the time I was charging my EV it was closer to 50%. Further... you can use curtailment so that even though the mix was ~50% at the time the dirty fuel was likely a thermal plant at its lowest idle and wind was actually being reduced. Charging off-peak dramatically decreases the emissions of EVs and very soon smart charging will decrease this even more. An aggregator can use 100k EVs as a virtual power plant. Too much wind? Increase charge rate 50MW. Wind output just went down or demand picked up? Instead of increasing the output of a peaker plant by 75MW decrease the charge rate 75MW. Software will always be cheaper than a physical generator or grid storage.

Further... having dispatchable demand (EVs) increases the amount of wind and solar the grid can economically support. So it becomes a synergistic relationship. More EVs => More wind/solar => Cleaner cheaper EVs => More wind/solar => More EVs => More Renewables; Curtailment... not storage will be the first challenge to cleaning up the grid. EVs can be a BIG part of the solution to curtailment.

??? How are EVs not ready? The difference in trip time is now practically non-existent. Towing might still be an issue but for passenger cars EVs are more convenient than ICE most of the time for most people. The investments should be in improving EVs and the infrastructure that supports them not wasting $$$ on obsolete ICE tech.
Wait. How do you figure that EVs do not use energy mix? The power comes from whoever purchases the power at their local utility. If that's your house for example: that's your energy company. If you're using chargepoint for example that's whoever the chargepoint provider is ( whether its a hotel, the town, the local gym ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_station#:~:text= Generally speaking they're coming from the grid, like anyone else. Maybe Tesla has some special setup where they only get it from renewables, but that's not any of the major level 2, or level 3 providers. So yes, it comes from grid mix. You can't look at our grid and say "oh all only comes from wind or solar". I get that in your specific instance you may have charged more on renewables, than someone else who didn't. I also get that the e-golf we use theoretically gets all of its power from 100% renewable( since our city is supposed to be 100% renewable sources only ).

I also get that if battery based solutions were put into place that, yes there could be more peak availability for solar & wind since the energy will be captured at their peak, stored and used back. But that's just not how it works right now, or in the near future. The state i live in generates 67% of their electricity from natural gas for example. But I only gave you the averages across the country. I get its better in some areas than others. But assuming your efficient in getting your power, others may not be and thats law of averages especially if we're considering 100% adoption. I also get that a ton of different situations and scenarios effect the outcome of an individual EVs efficiency.

I never stated that EVs are bad. I said they have shortcomings at the moment that many smart people are trying to overcome. My point was that in the meantime we could have some solutions today on the short that stop gap us.

As far as EVs not being ready. Tesla as a car manufacturer not withstanding the cybertruck and maybe the rivian. Seem to be on the right track. Infact i think many Tesla's are not bad on range. Except in colder climates where all EVs suffer at the moment. Once density is increased that will be a lot less of an issue. For commuter cars, hell 200 - 250 mile trips, Tesla's are great. Some of the other companies are up there to... the general charging networks are getting better... But keep in mind a few things here:

1.$ 35,000 is a lot for some people for a vehicle and for every new vehicle sold per year in the US 2 people buy a car for 20k or under used. Electrics in general happen to be on the more expensive side, especially Tesla. They're working on that I know but lets be real for a while the model 3 was really 50k.

2. 36.6% of all amercians rent. Which means finding an electric charger is often less convenient than getting a gas vehicle. Not to say you can't do it. We live in an apartment and we use a lvl 2 charger for the e-golf. But we also have 1 diesel, and 1 gas powered vehicle for longer trips, and well some fun. Many people who buy electrics still keep a gas powered vehicle for the same reason. Which shows they're not ready yet.

3. Battery density is not great currently. I've seen some excellent papers, research, up and coming stuff in semi solid, solid, sodium batteries... messing with the anode, etc...etc.. Stuff looks promising. If you can tell someone their electric will have the range of my Q5 - 600+ miles, and that they can charge that to 80% in sub 5 minutes.... the adoption rate will skyrocket. We need a 2x density increase, with weights being equal, more solid materials so that the speed to charge is basically nothing.

4. Given all above the last target is the target you will never hit. The car enthusiast, the classic car person, the big diesel pickup trucks that roll coal, the person he can only afford the sub 10,000 car. ( I get that you found a 6k leaf, but until those become the norm with bigger density and easy charging, forget it ). The trucking industry, planes, trains, ships. Which is why i mention carbon capture synthetic fuels... it solves those two without leaving it on the table.

5. "The investments should be in improving EVs and the infrastructure that supports them not wasting $$$ on obsolete ICE tech." -- Haha love the fight. EVs have their own groups researching, and there are others on gas / diesel powered vehicles. Market economics come into play here where the market dictates what is needed and right now since Climate Change is an Existential crisis... I would like them to do all of it, right now, not just evs, not just synthetic fuels, not just nucleur, everything, solve anywhere there is pollution. A multi-faceted problem, requires a multi-faceted solution.
 

nwdiver

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Wait. How do you figure that EVs do not use energy mix?
I don't know how I could have been more clear....

Yet if you were to look at the mix at the time I was charging my EV it was closer to 50%. Further... you can use curtailment so that even though the mix was ~50% at the time the dirty fuel was likely a thermal plant at its lowest idle and wind was actually being reduced.
The average annual wind generation is 25%. But the wind generation when my car is charging averages ~50%. If you aggregate charging to match wind and solar you can get >90%.

1) You need to look at the 5/10 year cost of ownership. Fuel and maintenance is significantly less expensive. I agree if you want cheap buy used which is why I think it's silly to keep manufacturing ICE.

2) Renters still park their car somewhere. We probably need more incentives for street side parking. Power requirements for charging an EV are WAAAY lower than most people realize. The UK is using surplus capacity from upgrading street lights to LED to provide curbside charging.

3) Battery density already exceeds bladder capacity. The benefit of a 500 mile range diminishes greatly when you refuel in your driveway.

4) Synthetic fuels will be great for aviation but we need to reserve what little we can make for aviation and it's physically impossible for it to ever be more cost effective than simply charging a battery.

5) We have finite resources. The OEMs are already tapped out trying to transition to EVs. Every $ they're spending on ICE is really a dollar they can't afford to not spend on R&D for electrification. At some point you have to do a little fiscal triage... invest in what works and stop wasting $$$ on what doesn't.
 
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atc98002

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...
Now environmental -
So my Q5 produces 357 g/mi of CO2 based on the average and the egolf --- Nationwide the CO2/kWh ( https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11 ) is .99lbs or 449.056grams, at the very best the egolf is producing 102.06 g/mi, and at the worst its producing 136.8 g/mi. Not bad. Now lets compare that to say a european golf tdi ( 225 g/mi ) ... Now lets just mention regular hybrids for a second not PHEV - 154 g/mi to 190 g/mi depending on vehicle. None of this includes the amount to create them just the emissions ongoing. What I'm saying is that electrics are not the only answer here.... Take the 2020 SQ5 TDI w/ the mild hybrid g/mi of co2 - 285 ( this is based on manufacturer averages ofcourse and i always beat those )... but if i didn't go sports and just got another Q5 TDI like offered in europe that is currently 231 g/mi. They just don't offer them here, which is why I have to pollute more. The cleanest non-hybrid SUV is lexus UX @ 225g/mi US, and hybrid Q5 is around 165 g/mi ... but those are misleading because they assume none for the electricity since its a PHEV... which is not true. ( I need a vehicle that can tow btw ).
For towing, you are correct that an EV just isn't there yet. And probably still a ways away. But that CO2 amount is highly dependent on location. For my use case, using the same web site you gave here for data, Washington state produced 116,756,729 Megawatt Hours of electricity in 2018. However, 88,785,166 MWh was from hydro, wind and solar. So, a hair over 76% of our electricity had no direct CO2 emissions. I suspect that the CO2 per KWh here is far lower than the number you list. I had trouble finding the most recent data, but I did find a chart for 2012. It shows the WA grid produced about 40 grams of CO2/KWh (tough to see an accurate value on the chart because it's so small). I feel pretty confident that there's no vehicle with a combustion engine that can equal, let alone beat, that number.

Using the energy calculator on fueleconomy.gov, it lists the 2019 e-Golf as 90 g/mi, while my Niro PHEV is 140 g/mi. And that calculator appears to take your local electricity generation into the mix. Appears to me the EV still beats a really good PHEV quite handily.
 

turbobrick240

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So Carbon engineering the company i linked does direct air capture CO2, uses some chemical reactions to literally pull the CO2 from the atmosphere, and stores it. They use renewable energy sources of electricity, and take the captured CO2 from the air, and hydrogen from water, and then make gas / diesel. They have press releases, and etc... if you search them out.
I'm not sure why you're comment on micro nukes. If you look into nupower you would realize that they are some ridiculous amount safer, can be shutdown via a release, produce greater power density, are much more efficient on the fueling and etc... Plus my advocation is to replace only our aging nucleur facilities with 40 year newer, much safer technology... Can you elaborate on why you dislike micro-nukes?
Carbon capture is a great idea. It makes sense to utilize the least energy intensive means to capture the carbon. The obvious choice(to me at least) seems to be biological capture by plants and algae.

https://www-usnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2019-07-26/a-startup-says-it-can-suck-co2-from-the-air-experts-arent-so-sure?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&context=amp&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15827885802245&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.usnews.com%2Fnews%2Fthe-report%2Farticles%2F2019-07-26%2Fa-startup-says-it-can-suck-co2-from-the-air-experts-arent-so-sure%3Fcontext%3Damp%23aoh%3D15827885802245%26referrer%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.com%26amp_tf%3DFrom%2520%25251%2524s

https://cleantechnica-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/cleantechnica.com/2019/04/12/chevrons-fig-leaf-part-1-carbon-engineering-burns-natural-gas-to-capture-carbon-from-the-air/amp/?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15828302918542&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fcleantechnica.com%2F2019%2F04%2F12%2Fchevrons-fig-leaf-part-1-carbon-engineering-burns-natural-gas-to-capture-carbon-from-the-air%2F

https://www-wired-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.wired.com/story/the-potential-pitfalls-of-sucking-carbon-from-the-atmosphere/amp?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15827872876342&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wired.com%2Fstory%2Fthe-potential-pitfalls-of-sucking-carbon-from-the-atmosphere%2F

As nwdiver mentioned, nuclear is too expensive. And the vulnerabilities that would be created by having thousands of small nuclear reactors scattered everywhere is not a pleasant thought.

https://wiseinternational.org/nuclear-monitor/872-873/small-modular-reactors-and-nuclear-weapons-proliferation?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=14d90f1e1cffc8cf5579b2b02472b110df121f9a-1583351927-0-AR98ym3Da7bNtLj2uZbBys_fxg8ViC444QFB1z-j7gNih_UParpL1VBY_BvdwQ72bOg99Yg3X_FLCSq_EL6DD2pfViclVsWaXFZUwCqT9Q6HzBiomY-QLMdKyJuDZ3ZQeiipW6gyE_qYSnROtUkqci_jjlOJQOkMQpLrU1WhXge2XDyXIJamflDR2wfZvY0Stg6eBQ0cQkiylxGbqs9MRr_RslTVLxR-i76Rr7DLxdhq9OEi-ULkCNLC5LF-hZ6-vHUqzjg9MOEV385YWJnHgval87HY2sYfXNNBkarGHJfle3WArxkZnA82T46_OarJAqCz6mer1fHBYg8e0Tu0Isc3R9T0oH6a_k0dBkn7avRRqRtPtnHvguySjsSk8YojbA

We only need look as far as California to see how quickly EV's can become mainstream. The model 3 outsold both the Honda Accord and Toyota Corolla there in 2019.
 
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Rob Mayercik

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I can't speak for @Turbobrick240 but I dislike nuclear because is ridiculously, OMG expensive. New Nuclear is ~4x more per kWh and ~15x more per kW compared to solar and wind. Nuclear has evolved into a fancy & expensive welfare program.
Maybe it wouldn't be so bloody expensive if the the industry didn't have to wage a never-ending holy war against people who hear the word "nuclear" and immediately start acting like Chicken Little with a severe case of hair-on-fire.

I mean, how the heck are we ever going to get our clean fusion power reactors like in Star Trek if the extremist environmentalists keep stifling our ability to replace our existing nuclear power plants (decades-old, expensive first-generation designs) with newer designs that are safer and less expensive?

I want my Mr. Fusion, dammit!
 

nwdiver

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Maybe it wouldn't be so bloody expensive if the the industry didn't have to wage a never-ending holy war against people who hear the word "nuclear" and immediately start acting like Chicken Little with a severe case of hair-on-fire.
I mean, how the heck are we ever going to get our clean fusion power reactors like in Star Trek if the extremist environmentalists keep stifling our ability to replace our existing nuclear power plants (decades-old, expensive first-generation designs) with newer designs that are safer and less expensive?
I want my Mr. Fusion, dammit!
You're not going to find a more business friendly area than the area around where Vogtle is being built. It's not 'environmentalists'... it's the nuclear industry.

Any thermal generator is inherently inefficient which doesn't help the cost. A nuclear plant has to dissipate 2 units of heat for every unit of electricity produced.
 

tikal

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Speaking from someone who has a 2015 Q5 TDI, and a 2019 VW E-Golf. I would gladly keep my diesel all day long. The golf is just plain boring. There is no excitment in an EV. 0-60 in 2.4s doesn't excite me from a model s either. We have a 2011 HIGHLY modified WRX w/ built alot and it does sub 3s 0-60, and strong qm pulls, is a standard and blast to drive. Where the e-golf shines is heavy traffic, but the Q5 does more than adequate there. That's from an excitement perspective.

Ok. Lets look at it from an efficiency Standard my Q5 Averages 29mpg in fuelly. And the e-golf which is rated at 119 mpgE combined - Except we get around 3.3 miles / kWh - 4.4 / kWh - So 111.21 MPGe - 148 MPGe . E-Golf does better in this department and electrics in general, ofcourse things like hybrids get you pretty close depending.

Now environmental -
So my Q5 produces 357 g/mi of CO2 based on the average and the egolf --- Nationwide the CO2/kWh ( https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11 ) is .99lbs or 449.056grams, at the very best the egolf is producing 102.06 g/mi, and at the worst its producing 136.8 g/mi. Not bad. Now lets compare that to say a european golf tdi ( 225 g/mi ) ... Now lets just mention regular hybrids for a second not PHEV - 154 g/mi to 190 g/mi depending on vehicle. None of this includes the amount to create them just the emissions ongoing. What I'm saying is that electrics are not the only answer here.... Take the 2020 SQ5 TDI w/ the mild hybrid g/mi of co2 - 285 ( this is based on manufacturer averages ofcourse and i always beat those )... but if i didn't go sports and just got another Q5 TDI like offered in europe that is currently 231 g/mi. They just don't offer them here, which is why I have to pollute more. The cleanest non-hybrid SUV is lexus UX @ 225g/mi US, and hybrid Q5 is around 165 g/mi ... but those are misleading because they assume none for the electricity since its a PHEV... which is not true. ( I need a vehicle that can tow btw ).

Alternatively we could be immediately more environmental if we switched globally to carbon capture synthetic fuels, because that would make all current vehicles effectively carbon neutral if not negative. This would also be applied to place that cannot use electrics effective currently like trucking, trains, plains, cargo ships, etc.... Like Carbon Engineering https://carbonengineering.com/ --- Pair this with ducted fuel injection and you have a good recipe to make this stuff neutral while electrics, can really grow, and the grid can be cleaning as well.

The second is - More microscale high deployment nucleur like nupower --- https://www.nuscalepower.com/ --- Just replacing our current reactors with these would be infinitely safer, and produce a scale of about 5x the power. Which would make our grid 100% nucleur and some renewables, and remove all fossil fuels.... just saying... This would make the case for electrics

Adoption - Currently global EV sales are around 2% annually. Last year 17 million vehicles were sold in the US, and the are around 279 million registered vehicles in the US. Assuming a 100% ev adoption rate per year, it would take us around 17 years to full cycle through all of our vehicles. But lets assume the EV segment is going to burst at the seems and the ev market sales literally go 2500% over current and over the next 10 years it spikes to 50%, thats means 34 years to transition. This is why I'd like to see synthetic fuels come online, and become mandatory, because then atleast we can significantly slow the damage done, in all areas, and all sectors.

There is a lot of rambline here So boiling it down:

1. I don't think electrics are ready, since basically people don't want them yet, and they aren't are convenient yet.

2. We need synthetic carbon capture fuels today

3. A nupower switch would be awesome since it would clean up eletricity generation which electric cars use, but so does everything else in this country.

4. Ducted fuel injection needs to be a thing

5. Please bring us modern TDI's with mhev, so we can switch to greener alternatives especially for those of us that tow some weight, as electrics and density are not their to handle this at all yet.

6. They need to keep researching on how to make any ICE engines more efficient because they're not going anywhere. So improve this while electric adoption is happening.
Another take regarding the Environment from the Argonne National Labs GREET model. YES it will change gradually in favor of electrical vehicles (now diesel is tied or better than EVs according to the GREET chart below from wxman). In the mean time, if you have a safe running light duty diesel vehicle, why not keep it until your budget/needs allows to move into EVs? People might also buy used light diesel vehicles as a bridge technology towards getting EVs in the future due to finances, range, etc.

Actually, I do have an update based on the latest release of the GREET model (GREET_2019):


 

kjclow

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It does say fleet average, so they're using electric vehicles to boost the numbers.
 
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Lightflyer1

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There was an article the other day that mentioned the US car makers will only produce a small number of electric cars in favor of trucks and SUV's. More than likely they will only produce enough to help meet their mpg requirements. Instead of an all out push to go electric.
 

Daemon64

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Yeah, they are putting out more electrics. But likely hybrids as well. Note that the Audi Q5 now has a hybrid option, that supposedly averages 3mpg better. But mostly what they are looking for is a CO2 emissions average: The orig obama requirements were "54.5 miles per gallon is based on a projected fleet average of 163g/mi of tailpipe CO2 emissions." The 2020 Q5 Hybrid is 165g/mi --- https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Pow...year2=2020&make=Audi&baseModel=Q5&srchtyp=ymm

With PHEV, it would be easy to make this happens. 2020 Q5 is 364 g/mi, 2020 Q5 PHEV is 165g/mi ... The 2020 VW JEtta w/ the 1.4T is 261 g/mi --- make it a PHEV and it will be stupidly better in terms of fuel, and CO2... and it already does 30city / 40 highway... Also that 1.4T is a beast for a small motor ( my fiend has one ) 147HP / 184TQ --- Gas car that has a hp/tq similar ( not perfect ofcourse ) to a diesel.

One step further -
The European 2020 SQ5 TDI is 284.8 - 276 g/mi ( Current US Spec Gas version is 444 g/mi )
The European 2020 Q5 45 TDI ( Same engine / spec as my Q5 TDI and it pollutes far less ) is 265.5 - 259.1 g/mi
The European 2020 Q5 40 TDI ( Think 2.0L Golf TDI Engine 0-62 in 7.6 ) is 231.7 - 217.26 g/mi

For reference my 2015 Q5 TDI us spec is 384 g/mi.

Point being is the modern Audi / VW engines can meet the CO2 standards with ease if they put the right stuff in and I for one would like them to send the new SQ5 TDI MHEV here, so i can pollute significantly less while doing the same work, and getting better mpg.
 

D_Bill

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old conversation

Some years back - about a decade or so I ended up in a conversation here on TDIClub with a scientist from DOE - him being the smart guy and me pushing common sense to the max.

We agreed that he was right for city folks - electric worked for metropolitan areas

but

We agreed I was right for suburban/rural folks - diesel ( esp , at the time, something akin to algae based biodiesel ) worked for our town and country and family visits .

Most city folks didn't drive for more than 200-300 miles per day . So he's right in cities ( well also because there are charging stations ). But my neighbors and I have families all over the place 300 - 3000 miles away so 500 - 750+ miles per day were " routine " family events. Ditto for moving/towing tools, equipment, boats and such .

My 2001 Jetta TDI is long gone ( sold at 300K to a friends son who still uses it ). Thus past Jan I got a chance to buy a cleaned up 2013 JSW TDI :) I usually don't put much stock in the computer mpg numbers but I suppose they are close enough for govt work. Just before the CV 19 shut down I made one of those 550 mile in a day trips at old man ( not hypermiling just keeping it around 60 ish on I 80 here in PA 's northern tier ( mild hills ) . Computer says 55 mpg which is darn close to the calculated between fillups mpg I got in the '01 ( just under 60mpg - my best ever - on a slow, no stopping, return trip of 900+ miles from FL some 10 +- years ago ) .

Bottom line - imagine what we could get from tdi's if allowed to continue innovation .

Bonus points for what I think is carbon neutral - alcohol . Less energy per gallon but -

plants + water/co2 in and alcohol out

cars + alcohol/o2 in and water co2 out

btw - I think alcohol will never happen - no way for govt nor big industry to make money since we'd make our own alcohol and drink the leftovers :)
 

turbobrick240

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Alcohol works for Brazil. How carbon neutral it is I'm not sure. Probably depends on how much rainforest is being slash & burned for the sugarcane plantations.
 

nayr

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Ive got a 2020 Q5e right now, had it a couple weeks and will have it a couple more weeks while they fix the rear main on my diesel..

I think i'mna buy one of these in a few years when I can get a CPO for half.. its a fun car, way more fun than the 2.0FSI Q5 loaner I had a few months ago.. supposedly quicker than the SQ5 and I believe it.

Drove across metro the other day w/full battery in hybrid mode and got back home 2h later and had 75mpg on the gas engine.. We went on a 4h drive through the mountains this last weekend in hybrid mode and got 35mpg by the time we got home. My wife can run a full day of errands and shopping and never even touch the gas engine, and she could also make it to her office and back w/out ever using ICE either.
 

kjclow

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Bonus points for what I think is carbon neutral - alcohol . Less energy per gallon but -

plants + water/co2 in and alcohol out

cars + alcohol/o2 in and water co2 out

btw - I think alcohol will never happen - no way for govt nor big industry to make money since we'd make our own alcohol and drink the leftovers :)
Alcohol production for vehicle use and personal consumption has been legal in Iowa for at least 40 years. You just have to claim the number of gallons produced and used as fuel replacement so that you pay road use taxes, assuming that it was for on-road vehicles.

There are three big issues associated with alcohol production:
1. The energy requried to produce the alcohol is greater than the energy returned from the alcohol.
2. At least in the US, alcohol production is from grain crops, such as corn. Although this particular corn does not end up directly on our tables, it is used in all of our animal food that has a direct impact on the price on the meat that does hit our tables.
3. In order to get plants that are easier to process, vast areas of land are being driven into crop production that nature never intended to be used for that.
 

Graham Line

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Alcohol works for Brazil. How carbon neutral it is I'm not sure. Probably depends on how much rainforest is being slash & burned for the sugarcane plantations.

Alcohol is a more reasonable choice in a warmer climate. You don't hear about it being used as a motor fuel in Argentina or Manitoba.
 

kjclow

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Is it not widely used in Canada in gasohol blends? I know from rentals that I've had up there, many are rated for E85. I fairly certain is availble in 48 states year round. Not sure about Alaska and Hawaii.
 

D_Bill

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Hmmm


I suppose I was thinking about those old time relatives that couldn t afford the store bought hooch but did manage to mix up a batch in the woods - mostly free - 'ceptin for the labor. They used to say the only reason the Revenoors wanted to stop it was cause they couldn t figure a way to tax it !


I know there's kits to make wine at home - and I believe you can make 250 gallons ( quarts ? ) per quarter without owing anything to the Fed's .


250 gallons at a miniscule 10mpg per quarter = 10,000 miles per year on alcohol - not too bad for those that " brewed " their own :)


I suppose that would have to be 180-190 proof ?


Although " tongue in cheek " surely if we studied it some - maybe . . . .
 

SwiftieWhoIsWithHer

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TDI
Nissan Titan XD Cummins Turbo Diesel
I'm with Fixmy59bug. Diesel is far from dead and not going to go away tomorrow.

My next vehicle likely will be a diesel pickup truck to be able to get a diesel vehicle. I'm becoming more of a truck guy too. I wish I had kept the 08 Ford F-350 SuperDuty 6.4L PowerStroke Diesel pickup truck I owned several years ago. While my BMW diesels are long term keepers, I miss that truck and wish I had kept it. I didn't think I would miss it as much as I do when I sold it. At the time it was hard to justify owning 3 vehicles when I am the only driver of them. I will probably have another diesel pickup truck again in the future.

Whatever I own and drive absolutely HAS to be DIESEL powered. Gassers including gasser hybrids are not an option at all. BMW made a business decision to stop selling their diesel vehicles in the USA after 2018. That caused me to make a business decision too. BMW not returning with diesel vehicles means I won't be returning to BMW as a customer in the future. Volkswagen already lost me as a future repeat customer due to no more TDIs after the Dieselgate scandal. I had already moved on from VW TDIs to BMW Advanced Diesel before the Dieselgate scandal broke.

The diesel pickup truck market is already well established has not been threatened at all by the Dieselgate scandal. I am willing to do whatever it takes to continue owning and driving only DIESEL vehicles. Diesel pickup owners are our friends in this case.
You could get Mazda's CX5 Skyactiv-D, if you want good reliability. Other car brands that I know that sell diesels are General Motors (Chevy, GMC, Cadillac, gm is introducing more diesels into the market, the new Tahoe (Yukon, Escalade) and Suburban (Yukon XL, Escalade ESV) have gotten diesel engines for the first time), Land Rover, and Fiat Chrysler (Ram and Jeep).
 

JM Popaleetus

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2010
Location
Connecticut
TDI
Signature.
Diesels will (and seemingly have) made a small comeback in SUV's. The Germans however have completely pulled out of the US market, and I don't expect to ever see a diesel passenger car again.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Diesel fuel wont be phased out anytime soon because of over the road hauling. Electric just doesnt have the range that a diesel big rig does, so we are going to be reliant on it for a while longer.
OTR hauling has drive time limits that make any range limitations that an EV has completely acceptable.

A Tesla Semi with the large battery is rated at 500 miles range, while at 80,000 lbs GCWR. 500 miles at 65 MPH (a guesstimate of the target average speed) is 7h42m. After 8 hours, a driver must take a mandatory 30 minute break, in which the truck is charged from 0 to 80% (and it's not at 0% to start with) at a Tesla Megacharger. 400 miles at 65 MPH is 6h9m... but there's a daily drive time limit of 11 hours. Basically, the legal daily range of a truck driver at 65 MPH is 715 miles.

Ok I get this. But to do "apples to apples" comparison, what kind of efficiency you get from the TDI engines available that have hybrid characteristics like this one giving us an combined average of 60 MPG (US gallons) and a fuel range of 990 miles?
But not on the US test cycle, and the European NEDC is notoriously lax, and even worse, legal to cheat.

Taping over the seams, shutting off legally mandated DRLs, inflating tires to max sidewall, using lighter engine oil than specified, and running the coastdown test that determines dynamometer load downhill both ways, are completely legal under NEDC.

(Inflating tires above max sidewall and running diesel fuel instead of engine oil, however, are illegal, something VW admitted to doing on 1.4T gassers.)

Plus, 118 hp in a midsize sedan? That hasn't been acceptable in the US market for 20 years. Even if you allow for diesel low-end torque... remember that the 1998 Passat TDI (admittedly, 90 hp, not 118 - it was an AHH, basically an AHU with a VNT15 like an ALH) was cancelled at the last moment due to being too slow.

Now lets compare that to say a european golf tdi ( 225 g/mi ) ... Now lets just mention regular hybrids for a second not PHEV - 154 g/mi to 190 g/mi depending on vehicle. None of this includes the amount to create them just the emissions ongoing. What I'm saying is that electrics are not the only answer here.... Take the 2020 SQ5 TDI w/ the mild hybrid g/mi of co2 - 285 ( this is based on manufacturer averages ofcourse and i always beat those )... but if i didn't go sports and just got another Q5 TDI like offered in europe that is currently 231 g/mi. They just don't offer them here, which is why I have to pollute more. The cleanest non-hybrid SUV is lexus UX @ 225g/mi US, and hybrid Q5 is around 165 g/mi ... but those are misleading because they assume none for the electricity since its a PHEV... which is not true. ( I need a vehicle that can tow btw ).
European CO2 numbers are, if I recall correctly, either based on NEDC testing, or they're based on WLTP testing (still more lax than US testing, but at least the cheats manufacturers were using under NEDC were banned) and then normalized to NEDC using a formula. (Note that normalizing to an outdated testing standard happens in the US too - CAFE regulations are still written around the 1978 testing protocols without either adjustment factors or additional test cycles. The "54.5 MPG" (on gasoline) target was really more like high 30s/low 40s on current EPA testing, as a result.)

interesting....

can they hit 50 mpg average without diesel? or do they use some electric 'mileage equivalent' quackery to meet their goals


https://www.motor1.com/news/361821/major-automakers-strike-deal-california/
Worth noting that a lot of these mileage standards are CAFE, not current EPA testing standards.

Additionally, they're tied to CO2 emissions. Diesel isn't much help here, because the fuel's increased energy density directly correlates to higher CO2 emissions per gallon. Improved thermal efficiency of the engine helps, of course, but not if you're beaten at thermal efficiency by, say, a hybrid that can keep the engine closer to optimal load as well as recovering energy under braking.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
VW seriously ran diesel fuel rather than motor oil for NEDC testing in 1.4T cars?! That's just wrong on so many levels.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Diesels will (and seemingly have) made a small comeback in SUV's. The Germans however have completely pulled out of the US market, and I don't expect to ever see a diesel passenger car again.
FCA seems willing to try the 3 liter diesel in just about any application other than a passenger car. Most Jeep models and the small Ram vans are supposed to offer it over the next few years. I might consider going back to a minivan if they offered it with a diesel.
 

rhinorear

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2019
Location
Lost Causes NM
TDI
2014 JSW
If you're a do it yourself kind of guy you might first check the cost of an oil change. Ya lets reintroduce diesels but then make it crazy expensive to maintain them.
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
If you're a do it yourself kind of guy you might first check the cost of an oil change. Ya lets reintroduce diesels but then make it crazy expensive to maintain them.

Tell me about it. My Tdi Touareg takes 8 liters of VW507 oil, and needs changing every 7k miles. Holy crap. And it only gets 18mpg :(
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
What gets me is the cost of some of the oil filters. Mercedes 4 cylinder OM651: OE filter is $25. 2020 OE Ram 1500 Ecodiesel filter is $74, because it comes with a new canister top. You can't separate the two. And then you have to buy the oil.
 
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