Turbos...who's using what and what did it come off of?

[vwmikel]

So, as you may have noticed by my signature I'm running a GT2260V turbo off of a BMW (X5 or 330D maybe). Response is fine and to my surprise it actually makes quite a bit of boost at low RPM without surging. The downside however is that I'm running into a bottleneck with the turbine. It is just too small for the current power output and as a result I cannot regulate boost pressure at high RPM. It pegs out the map sensor and I have run out of adjustment in the N75 duty cycle. I am requesting about 27 psi which it follows up until about 4000 RPM when it begins to creep up to around 30 psi. I have adjusted the vanes on several occasions and am content that is not contributing to the problem. I clearly just have too much exhaust manifold pressure.

So, my choices are coming down to:

A- detuning it and being happy where it is. This is not something I'd normally do. I'm never happy with it.

B- Switching to a larger turbine. First I'd have to figure out what A/R and trim the current one is. I think I'd have to take it apart to determine that.

C- Upgrade to a larger turbo altogether.

I'm leaning toward C right now because I think I could utilize the extra boost pressure That said, I'd rather not go too big on the turbo as this is still my daily driver and I'd like to maintain some low end. I'd like to be able to use an efficient 35 psi or thereabouts but I don't need it to hold 35 psi to 5000 because I think I'd be getting into the power range that would be likely to scatter connecting rods all over the street.

Holsets have been a bit of a consideration but I don't like what I'm seeing on the low end of the maps. The HY35 seems to be the best but I wouldn't even make it on the map until 3200 RPM and boost wouldn't peak until about 4200 RPM at 46 psi. That's a little more pressure than I need and a bit too much of a compromise for this application. Holset also doesn't seem to offer much in the VNT department which I'd like to maintain.

I'm thinking something like a GT23 or a GT25 and if I could find a turbo with an anti-surge shroud that would be excellent. Does anyone happen to know what might have come with either of those turbos and if any of them had an anti-surge shroud?

 

[Crazy Memphis]

mk3 engine bay are a looot more spacier then the mk4. i have seen 3-4 years ago a jetta mk3 with a gt45 in it .... it wasn't diesel but it was f**king big. i don't know tho if the kind of turbo the gasser use can be use with diesel ?

but go on garrett site you can see that the wheel are much bigger for the same size of turbo.

don't waste time with little compagnie telling you what they have that might fit in there... call garrett cie itself and ask them what would be the biggest you can put in your car with the wheel spec you are looking for !!! they make turbo from scrap.... i am pretty sure they can help you better then most of us !!!

 

[vwmikel]

The problem is that most of the larger turbos they have listed on their site won't work at the required pressure ratio. The ones that do won't support that kind of pressure at the lower flow rates.

Here is a Holset HY35 compressor map:

On the left the numbers indicate the pressure ratio, or how much pressure it can generate. This is based on outlet pressure as compared to inlet pressure. It is capable of a pressure ratio of about 4.2 which is about 47 psig. I don't really need quite that much pressure and the biggest concern is that the boost curve would look something like this:

HY-35
RPM PSI
1800 NA
2000 NA
2200 NA
2400 NA
2600 NA
2800 NA
3000 NA
3200 7
3400 8
3600 8
3800 20
4000 30
4200 46
4400 46
4600 46
4800 45
5000 45

The "NA" results are because it isn't even on the map yet. It will probably make boost in some of that area but it probably won't be a great deal, and/or it won't be very efficient. I'm sure I could use this turbo in conjunction with a supercharger but I'm running out of room.

I know there has to be a turbo out there that is somewhere in between my current turbo and this Holset example.

 

[philipwight]

the vnt 25 that i have has anti surge... dont know if you are wanting to go with wastegate or not but i think that most of the older garrets have anti surge.

 

[vwmikel]

I'd prefer to keep the VNT if I can. Where did your 25 come from?

 

[philipwight]

euro ebay..... they have some great stuff for tdis.

 

[jayfrigginjones]

Don't feel like tackling twins or compound turbo's?

 

[vwmikel]

Compound turbos wouldn't really solve the problem here. What I've got is too much exhaust manifold pressure which limits the power in the upper portion of the operating range. I also need a little more boost pressure, not a lot so it really wouldn't be worth it to do twins. Twins would only make the exhaust pressure worse and would probably shorten the useful operating range further. Keep in mind it still makes good power over 4000, just not quite as much as it could if the engine could breathe better on the exhaust side. So, an easy solution might be to find another turbine housing, but I figure while I'm at it I might try to find another compressor which can support a little higher pressure ratio.

 

[philipwight]

i wonder what a garrett 3071r would do? i have one sitting on the shelf. made great power on an 8:1 compression miata motor. 475whp to be exact. wonder what it would do on 18:1?

 

[vwmikel]

The problem is really that it would probably only make useful boost pressure at too high of an RPM. Generally, as the turbo gets larger the useful range of the engine smaller. Sizing a turbo is always a compromise as there is never one single perfect turbo.

 

[philipwight]

i will look at teh dyno sheet again but for some reason i think he had 300whp at close to 3500rpms. and i dont see why an 18:1 motor couldnt do slightly better.

 

[shortysclimbin]

graph the turbo you have now and I would suggest modifying that for starters. It sounds like you are close with it.

 

[vwmikel]

What?

 

[awmw]

I can't remember where I got this list from but it may help someone
***************GT25****************
Renault
Vel Satis dCi 3.0L D P9X701 02- GT2559V
Espace dCi 3.0L D P9X701 03- GT2559V
Saab
9-5 TiD - 176HP 3.0L D 6DE1 02- GT2559V
Opel
Vectra CDTi - 174HP 3.0L D Y30DT 03- GT2559V
Signum TDi - 176HP 3.0L D Y30DT 03- GT2559V
Bmw
730d 3.0L D M57 03- GTV2556V G 454191-0001/3/4/5/6/7/10E 2247691F/2248907G
530d - 184HP 2.9L D M57 99-03 GTV2556V G 454191-0001/3/4/5/6/7/10E 2247691F/2248907G
***************GT23*****************
MB
E320 - 195HP 3.2L D OM613961 99-01 GT2359V
E320 - 204HP 3.2L D 03- GT2359V
S320 - 195HP 3.2L D OM613961 99-02 GT2359V
Toyota
Landcruiser D-4D 4.2L D 02- GT2359V
***************GT22*****************
Alfa
156 JTD - 136HP 2.4L D 841C.000 01- GT2256V G 710811-0001/2E 46769104
156 JTD - 175HP 2.4L D 841G.000 03- GT2256V G 717661-0001E 46808717/55182571
166 JTD - 136HP 2.4L D 841C.000 01- GT2256V G 710812-0001E 46767677
166 JTD - 175HP 2.4L D 841G.000 03- GT2256V G 717661-0001E 46808717/55182571
Bmw
330d - 184HP 2.9L D M57 00-04 GT22556V G 704361-0004/5/6E 2248834E/2249951
530d 2.9L D 03- GT22V G 742730-0003E 11657790308
X5 2.9L D 03-04 GT2260V G 742417-0001E 7791044E
X5 2.9L D 04- GT2260V G 753392-0001E 7791046F
FIAT IVECO
Daily III - 135HP 2.8L D 8140.43K.4000 00-04 GT2256V G 707114-0001E 500379251
Daily III - 140HP 2.8L D 8140.43K.4000 04- GT2256V G 751758-0001E 500379251
Iveco
Euro Cargo 75E 3.9L 00 GT2259S G 702989-0003E 4801639
FORD
Ranger 2.8L D 02- GT2256V G 724652-0001E 79517
JEEP
Grand Cherokee - 163HP 2.7L D ENF 01-05 GT2256V G 715568-0001/2E A6650960099
LANCIA
Aurelia 2.4L D 841C.000 01- GT2256V G 710812-0001E 46767677
Lybra 2.4L D 841C.000 01- GT2256V G 710811-0001/2E 46769104
Lybra JTD 2.4L D 839A6.000 01- GT2256V G 716626-0001E 46799071
LAND ROVER
Range Rover Td6 2.9L D M57D 02- GT2256V G 712541-0001/2/3E 7785838
MB
C270 - 170HP 2.7L D OM612962 01- GT2256V G 711009-0001E A6110960999
E270 - 163HP 2.7L D OM612961 00-02 GT2256V G 709837-0001E A6120960299
E270 - 177HP 2.7L D OM612961 02- GT2256V G 715910-0001/2E A6120960599
E320 - 195HP 3.2L D OM613961 00-03 GT2259V G 711017-0001/2E A6130960299
S320 - 195HP 3.2L D OM613961 00-02 GT2259V G 711017-0001/2E A6130960299
M270 - 163HP 2.7L D OM612963 00-05 GT2256V G 709837-0001E A6120960299
Sprinter Van 2.7L D OM612 00- GT2256V G 709838-0001/3/4E A6120960399
Sprinter Van 216/316/416/616CDI 2.7L D OM612 04- GT2256V G 709838-0005E A6120960399 156BHP
Nissan
L35 Light Truck 01 GT2252S G 709693-0001E 14411-69T60
Trade 3.0L 96 GT2252S G 452187-0001/3/6E 14411-69T00
Renault
Mascotte - 140HP 2.8L D 8140.43K.4000 00-04 GT2256V G 707114-0001E 500379251
Mascotte - 140HP 2.8L D 8140.43K.4000 04- GT2256V G 751758-0001E 500379251
VW
T4 Bus 2.5L D AHY 98- GT2252V G 454192-0001/5E 074145703E
T4 Bus 2.5L D AVG 01- GT2252V G 454192-0002/6E 074145703G

 

[StingrayRT]

So, as you may have noticed by my signature I'm running a GT2260V turbo off of a BMW (X5 or 330D maybe). Response is fine and to my surprise it actually makes quite a bit of boost at low RPM without surging. The downside however is that I'm running into a bottleneck with the turbine. It is just too small for the current power output and as a result I cannot regulate boost pressure at high RPM. It pegs out the map sensor and I have run out of adjustment in the N75 duty cycle. I am requesting about 27 psi which it follows up until about 4000 RPM when it begins to creep up to around 30 psi. I have adjusted the vanes on several occasions and am content that is not contributing to the problem. I clearly just have too much exhaust manifold pressure.

So, my choices are coming down to:

A- detuning it and being happy where it is. This is not something I'd normally do. I'm never happy with it.

B- Switching to a larger turbine. First I'd have to figure out what A/R and trim the current one is. I think I'd have to take it apart to determine that.

C- Upgrade to a larger turbo altogether.

I'm leaning toward C right now because I think I could utilize the extra boost pressure That said, I'd rather not go too big on the turbo as this is still my daily driver and I'd like to maintain some low end. I'd like to be able to use an efficient 35 psi or thereabouts but I don't need it to hold 35 psi to 5000 because I think I'd be getting into the power range that would be likely to scatter connecting rods all over the street.

Holsets have been a bit of a consideration but I don't like what I'm seeing on the low end of the maps. The HY35 seems to be the best but I wouldn't even make it on the map until 3200 RPM and boost wouldn't peak until about 4200 RPM at 46 psi. That's a little more pressure than I need and a bit too much of a compromise for this application. Holset also doesn't seem to offer much in the VNT department which I'd like to maintain.

I'm thinking something like a GT23 or a GT25 and if I could find a turbo with an anti-surge shroud that would be excellent. Does anyone happen to know what might have come with either of those turbos and if any of them had an anti-surge shroud?

I have both turbos GT23V and GT25V with anti-surge compressor housing, re-designed compressor section, backplate upgrade all compressor section mirror polished.....

 

[hatemi]

Your compressor is as good as it gets with older VNTs. New designs might do better but if your willing to settle for 35PSI it should bee good enough. Given the exhaust side could flow enough

How much is the EMP?

 

[vwmikel]

I haven't measured the EMP but I think it's safe to say it's too high.

I haven't been able to find a compressor map for the 2260. The only way I was able to make an educated guess on the 2260 was based on what the 2259 was capable of (the map is on Garretts site):

GT2259,59.4mm, 52 Trim, .42 A/R
RPM PSI
1800 6
2000 7
2200 8
2400 17
2600 18
2800 19
3000 21
3200 24
3400 27
3600 27
3800 27
4000 27
4200 28
4400 28
4600 27
4800 27
5000 27

I'm not sure I'd want to push the turbo to 33-34 psi though I have heard of some doing that. At the very least I'd have to find another turbine housing but something tells me that would be easiest to get when attached to another turbo.

 

[Scott_DeWitt]

Turbo shops can perform what is called a "Clip" to the exhaust turbine wheel. Doing so decreases EMP and moves the operating range of the turbo up the RPM range. Doing this requires a rebuild and rebalance though...

 

[vwmikel]

I'm aware of what clipping the turbine wheel does. I'd just rather put my efforts towards finding a different turbo that can solve both of my problems.

 

[diesel des]

Simple, run a wastegate too. take it from the egr port. VNT does ok to 4K then wastgate takes over. Best of both worlds...

 

[vwmikel]

Even if I decided to add a wastegate I'd have to make a new manifold just to do that as I'm using a 1.6TD manifold. It has no EGR port.

 

[philipwight]

is the hy turbo a t3 flanged turbo?

 

[Passenger Performance]

is the hy turbo a t3 flanged turbo?

Yes traditional T3 turbine inlet, 4" V band outlet,9cm housing, Approx .49 AR but with a big ass wheel, more like a T4 sized wheel.

 

[Passenger Performance]

Turbo shops can perform what is called a "Clip" to the exhaust turbine wheel. Doing so decreases EMP and moves the operating range of the turbo up the RPM range. Doing this requires a rebuild and rebalance though...

But at the expense of using that wasted flow to spool a bigger turbo...

Simple, run a wastegate too. take it from the egr port. VNT does ok to 4K then wastgate takes over. Best of both worlds...

Actually thats not the best of both worlds at all, wastegating is purely wasting available energy.

 

[philipwight]

it is wasted energy but i think the energy wasted is a good compromise to back pressure. which in turn helps overall engine efficiency. i know gas motors are different but both are just air pumps. i tune my gas race motor with a figured algorithum s/p? of exhaust back pressure vs. intake manifold pressure and that is the actual engine efficiency.

i have no degree in this but have messed with it longer than most so please let me know if what i think is incorrect.

Philip

 

[Passenger Performance]

it is wasted energy but i think the energy wasted is a good compromise to back pressure. which in turn helps overall engine efficiency. i know gas motors are different but both are just air pumps. i tune my gas race motor with a figured algorithum s/p? of exhaust back pressure vs. intake manifold pressure and that is the actual engine efficiency.

i have no degree in this but have messed with it longer than most so please let me know if what i think is incorrect.

Philip

I have a hard time saying it helps the efficiency as it is being thrown out the window, utilizing a larger turbine housing (or turbo if need be) would truly be maximizing the efficiency because you are not wasting the extra available energy.

Its spelled algorithm. Which for your engines you shoot for what? I shoot for 1:1 (turbine/compressor) and am very pleased when I can drop it to .8-.9:1

 

[storx]

why dont you run a bypass valve to vent some of the exhuast flow by the turbo exhuast side right into the exhuast at a set psi like they do on some of the twin kits they run on the diesel trucks....
basicly at lets say 3mbars it be set to open and if the sensor detects less then 3mbar then it closes.... or.. im not sure how usefull this would be but why not run an vnt25 exhuast side with the vnt 22 compressor side if your happy with the boost and just want to get rid of the bottlenecking... im not sure how logical that would be im not an turbo builder so maybe someone else can add to my post

 

[storx]

why dont you run a bypass valve to vent some of the exhuast flow by the turbo exhuast side right into the exhuast at a set psi like they do on some of the twin kits they run on the diesel trucks....
basicly at lets say 3mbars it be set to open and if the sensor detects less then 3mbar then it closes.... or.. im not sure how usefull this would be but why not run an vnt25 exhuast side with the vnt 22 compressor side if your happy with the boost and just want to get rid of the bottlenecking... im not sure how logical that would be im not an turbo builder so maybe someone else can add to my post

 

[storx]

why dont you run a bypass valve to vent some of the exhuast flow by the turbo exhuast side right into the exhuast at a set psi like they do on some of the twin kits they run on the diesel trucks....
basicly at lets say 3mbars it be set to open and if the sensor detects less then 3mbar then it closes.... or.. im not sure how usefull this would be but why not run an vnt25 exhuast side with the vnt 22 compressor side if your happy with the boost and just want to get rid of the bottlenecking... im not sure how logical that would be im not an turbo builder so maybe someone else can add to my post

 

[devonutopia]

I am running a turbo of some sort - Seems to be big enough for the job it needs to do. No idea what it's derived from. Looks nothing like a turbo I've seen before in the flesh. Not a very helpful post, eh?