turbo upgrade for A3?

Stealth TDI

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Hello,

I felt a difference right away when I upgraded to a K03/K04 hybrid. Hoping for a gain, I dyno'd the car on a Friday, swapped turbos on Sat, and then re-dyno'd on Monday. Here are the results, keep in mind this is before I installed the Magnaflow cat and the PP502 injectors:



THE DISCLAIMERS:

1) The stock turbo was running at 17-psi closed loop (RC2, I think). The hybrid was running at 21-psi via BoostValve and no other changes. One could wonder if the stock turbo could have delivered similar results at 21-psi. I had tinkered with additional boost in the earlier days and ran some VAG-COM "Butt Dyno's." Neither the VAG-COM runs nor my own seat of the pants could tell a difference between 17 and 21 psi. But all of that testing was likely done on a retarded IP.

2) My IP was suffering from an undiagnosed case pressure valve failure. That likely accounts for the lack power on both runs above 3500 rpm. I do not know how the K03/K04 pulls with a fully functional IP. I didn't diagnose my IP until after I installed the unimpressive "Super 17." I also haven't dyno'd a functional IP. I intend to return to the stock turbo for my SCCA competition. So I may never know the true potential of the K03/K04.

My desire to avoid the brutal classes of SCCA competition (result of turbo swap) combined with my financial wounds from all of my turbo experimentation have compelled me to stay stock and/or avoid further turbo testing for a while. I MAY pursue the VNT swap when enough dyno data is available AND the job is a little more "common." ;)

Take Care,

Scott
 

mojogoes

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1/ No the stock turbo would not have produced this kind of increased power result , as it would have been out of its efficiency map and created more hot air......not cold/cool.

And in order to raise the boost even further instead of using a 3bar map you can can use a map defender / bleed valve with a restrictor attached which i did very succesfully up to 24psi+ on a T25 hybrid.

And 2/ only fuels the fact that more fuel is needed even further
 

Paul7878

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So how does the KO3/K04 turbo stack up against that newer S/T WGT Super 17 (from Kerma/StreetToys)? Just wondering why it seemed "unimpressive" to you stealth?
 

Stealth TDI

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Hello,

As stated above, I immediately felt the difference when I bolted up the K03/K04 hybrid. I had added the Magnaflow cat and was running RC3+ by the time I was ready to swap in the Super 17. The compressor wheel (inducer?) is a tad larger on the Super 17 (photo below). So I was hopeful to feel the difference right away. I expected a touch of lag despite reports that it would not lag at all.

What I felt was absolutely no gain at all. I even suspected a slight LOSS in power/torque. As I said, I was quite unimpressed, especially after all of the anticipation that had built up from the hype. But I could not prove a thing since neither I nor anyone else was willing to fund dyno testing on a turbo that just didn't cut the mustard. Some fingers were pointed toward my ailing IP. I managed to get that fixed and there was improvement. But the same improvement likely would have been seen by the K03/K04. BTW, I still maintain that a turbo with improved airflow would have delivered a seat of the pants difference below 3600 rpm even with my IP issue since the K03/K04 did so. Fixing the IP would have only made the difference better.

I offered to dyno the two turbos in another discussion if I could get about $150 in donations (the cost of the two dyno sessions). But mild controversy surrounding whether my GTS-2 turbo (allegedly the code name of the turbo before it was renamed "Super 17") is in fact a Super 17. No one made any offers. So I let the discussion die. I'll be swapping out turbos in a week or two. My offer still stands if the funding comes through. But I'm done spending my own money to prove this thing's no improvement over the less-expensive K03/K04!

Oh, here are the two side by side:


Take Care,

Scott
 
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Rub87

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you can run all the boost you want, with any turbo.. remember that power comes from the fuel, the turbo is only needed to let it not smoke..

Quite logic that you don't have more power by just swapping the turbo.. you need to adjust the tune so it gets more boost AND more fuel..
 

87turboquattro

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mojogoes said:
1/ No the stock turbo would not have produced this kind of increased power result , as it would have been out of its efficiency map and created more hot air......not cold/cool.
my stock gt15 made 116.9hp and 240tq and thats before it hit overboost.and yes it smokes alittle.hope to see higher numbers w/ my new 3" down pipe.may come back w/ a newer intake too.
remember,this has rc3 and 640 ohm every mod.
 

mojogoes

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87turboquattro said:
my stock gt15 made 116.9hp and 240tq and thats before it hit overboost.and yes it smokes alittle.hope to see higher numbers w/ my new 3" down pipe.may come back w/ a newer intake too.
remember,this has rc3 and 640 ohm every mod.
My stock gt15 made a 146hp with B.216's and fmic with a the oe down-pipe @ 18psi and probably the smoke as you report...........i guess i should have possibly changed that and the inlet-manifold to see even lower smoke output.
 

curtg

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i have the super 17,but like what scott did i also did,switched turbos at same time as downpipe no cat and 3in exhaust.so i felt power right away.
i see alot has happen in few months. i live were i work so i do not drive as much as i like,but i do now have 3500 miles on my turbo.is anyone else running super17?any feed back positive or negative.i am gonna try and get in touch with jeff for rocketchip tune and dyno in spring
 

mojogoes

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curtg said:
i have the super 17,but like what scott did i also did,switched turbos at same time as downpipe no cat and 3in exhaust.so i felt power right away.
i see alot has happen in few months. i live were i work so i do not drive as much as i like,but i do now have 3500 miles on my turbo.is anyone else running super17?any feed back positive or negative.i am gonna try and get in touch with jeff for rocketchip tune and dyno in spring
Do you know what the max boost pressure that the super17 can give sustained and what steady state pressure do you see on your gauge.
 

Stealth TDI

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Hello,

curtg said:
i have the super 17,but like what scott did i also did,switched turbos at same time as downpipe no cat and 3in exhaust.so i felt power right away.
You and Aaron both felt the gains since you swapped in this turbo AND upgraded the exhaust/cat AT THE SAME TIME. This is NOT the case with ME.

My timeline:

1) I dyno'd a K03 at 113-whp and 236-lb/ft. This was with 17psi and on a Friday.

2) I swapped in a K03/K04 hybrid the next day and drove the car over the weekend.

3) I dyno'd the hybrid the next Monday at 122-whp and 248-lb/ft. Peak torque was at 2300 rpm, about 300 rpm later than with the K03. The turbo was mechanically set to 21psi. A comparison between #1 and #3 is above.

4) I swapped in a new cat and downpipe and then dyno'd the next day. I ran 131-whp and 258-lb/ft. The torque curve matched the previous run until after 2300 rpm where it eventually peaked at 2500 rpm and maintained a healthy margin over the stock exhaust to near redline. PHOTO HERE.

*** Had I installed the hybrid and the exhaust at the same time (along with boost increase), I likely would have seen an immediate gain of 18-whp and 22-lb/ft and been REALLY impressed! :cool: ***

5) I eventually had another hybrid built which featured a K04 compressor AND a K04 exhaust, all stuffed into the K03 body. I called that turbo a "K0344." The K0344, combined with a new program, eventually gave me the 136-whp and 263-lb/ft at which I last dyno'd. Peak torque happened at 2600-rpm. But the lag was a tad more than I expected. Spool-up is good (fast enough to impress IBW when he saw it), but not as snappy as the K03. Initial spool happened about 300-rpm later than with the K03/K04. My peak HP was no different. It is unknown whether my ailing IP was the reason for no difference between the two turbos at higher rpm.

After all of that, you can imagine my displeasure when I swapped in the GTS-2/Super 17 and felt nothing special. Keep in mind I had removed the most laggy of my three turbos and "upgraded" to a turbo that might have been a tad slower. My IP timing issue was resolved after the swap. But I was still unimpressed. I'm so used to my current performance that I actually think swapping in a K03/K04 would impress me by finding some of the low end power I gave up last year. :eek: The stock turbo might even do that, although it may be more restrictive above 3500 rpm. I may install the K0344 before Christmas for the winter and fool around with it at least until our annual TDI Drag Day at MIR in March. I've also installed some PP502s, the keystone mod, and will have water injection before I hit the dyno again. I tend to think I might exceed 140-whp and maintain a flatter HP curve toward 4500 rpm. Torque? 270-lb/ft would be cool... 300 would be AWESOME! But I'm not holding my breath. I've learned not to expect much for power upgrades at this point in the game. :p

Well - That's my story and I'm sticking to it! ;)

Take Care,

Scott
 
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Stealth TDI

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BTW, please don't take my posts to understand that I find the K03/K04 to be a worthwhile, $900 performance upgrade. $900 is a lot to spend for nine horsepower. But it's money well-spent if you're replacing a K03 that NEEDS replacing since you would need to spend $650 anyway. :cool:
 

Matt-98AHU

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Stealth TDI said:
BTW, please don't take my posts to understand that I find the K03/K04 to be a worthwhile, $900 performance upgrade. $900 is a lot to spend for nine horsepower. But it's money well-spent if you're replacing a K03 that NEEDS replacing since you would need to spend $650 anyway. :cool:
That was exactly my reasoning. And there's a number of them out there with good success/reliability thus far. I would say you can buy one of these with confidence.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I had similar results with my exhaust swap. Here's the dyno before and after the exhaust change.

I gained 8 HP and 8 ft/lbs from the exhaust change alone. This is with RC2 (I forgot I had a switchable chip--duh!). A stronger tune probably would have shown a bigger percentage gain. I have RC3+ but have to replace my clutch before I can dyno this setup.

Note: The difference in the torque peak is, according to the dyno operator, a result of the ramp-up set on the dyno. The actual RPM for torque peak most likely didn't change.
 

greenskeeper

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$900 is a lot to spend for nine horsepower.
That's my thinking as well and will probably postpone the purchase until the stock turbo gives out (if ever!)
 

mojogoes

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mojogoes said:
Do you know what the max boost pressure that the super17 can give sustained and what steady state pressure do you see on your gauge.



HELLO OUT THERE!! does any one know the answer to this or you all goin to ingnore me::rolleyes: :mad:
 

blizzak

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Unfortunately, no one knows much about the super 17. The only person that has come forward on the club to say they officially have one bought from ST is curtg. He doesn't come around that often though.

My thoughts have shifted away from using the wastegated turbos on A3's now. Picking up a used VNT-15 from someone upgrading still seems like the best value path. The way mrchill and I talked at fest, it's easy to do the VNT swap! Although his easy is someone else's ridiculously difficult.
 

quietmission

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I drove in Mrchill's car with the vnt setup :eek: and i am so convinced that i already drop off a rebuild head at his shop awaiting a bigger vnt turbo swap. I am in fact contemplating whether to wait for a bigger turbo or to do the vnt conversion with the vnt15 that i currently have. Rumor has it that a A3 vnt downpipe will be available soon too.
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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If you want a downpipe just send me an email. I have a 2.5" here and can get a 2" made pretty quick. The VNT swap isn't that tough, you need a new N75, a different airbox to turbo intake (or you can modify the existing one), it helps to replace your MAF with an A4 MAF because it reads higher, the DP and turbo, of course, and a modification to the rear engine mount bracket.

I've thought about putting together a kit with or without a turbo, but didn't think there would be much demand. But it would be pretty easy to do, or, for me, achieveable. For Chill, a walk in the park.

I didn't have the DP welded to the exhaust on my A3 in case I wanted to make a swap. But I kind of like it the way it is.
 

Rub87

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If you put a mk4 maf in a mk3 car the maf reads low, not high.. you'll need to adjust linearisation of make an external signal modifying thing..
 

mrchill

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The A4 maf has more headroom...thats why we use it. Saturation happens much later, thus, better control. I like the vnt in the Mk3 a lot. I really wish I could have come up with a good WG upgrade but the cost was too high for the benefit. The vnt just makes so much sense in terms of upgradeability and overall options. Even if one wanted to simply replace the turbo with an upgrade and never change again, the vnt is a good choice.
 

Matt-98AHU

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I'm no fabricator... I am interested if someone would sell a modified rear engine mount to clear the VNT actuator, though!
 

mrchill

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Tdiparts is flirting with the idea of selling them. I may have some made myself... I have one of the Tdiparts ones...I am going to try it out on a car soon.
 

G60ING

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Stealth TDI said:
I offered to dyno the two turbos in another discussion if I could get about $150 in donations (the cost of the two dyno sessions)... My offer still stands if the funding comes through. But I'm done spending my own money to prove this thing's no improvement over the less-expensive K03/K04!
I'm willing to pay $20
 

quietmission

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Soon, i will be able to report back on the vnt swap and power in the MK3 platform. I have a mild ported rebuild head at Chill's and a vnt17vb on the way. I plan to use PP502 or 764 with an RC tune (undecided). I want to see if i can break the 150whp barrier in the mk3.
 

Alcaid

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quietmission said:
Soon, i will be able to report back on the vnt swap and power in the MK3 platform. I have a mild ported rebuild head at Chill's and a vnt17vb on the way. I plan to use PP502 or 764 with an RC tune (undecided). I want to see if i can break the 150whp barrier in the mk3.
I would suggest that you look into upgrading the injection pump at the same time, to an 11mm ALH automatic pump :D
 
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