turbo upgrade for A3?

[greenskeeper]

^^^ It depends mainly upon how much your budget is and how much more power your after........if the budgets big enough you can quite easily reach 200hp+

My budget right now could be for this KO3/04 hybrid turbo to the cost of $850 or so. My question is what level of perfomance (hp/tq) could I expect with this turbo in place of the stock one along with my PP764s and proper Aligator tune?

Is it worth the money for the gain? I have no idea where I am at now with my current setup which would be a good place to start lol.

 

[AThreeTdi]

My budget right now could be for this KO3/04 hybrid turbo to the cost of $850 or so. My question is what level of perfomance (hp/tq) could I expect with this turbo in place of the stock one along with my PP764s and proper Aligator tune?

Is it worth the money for the gain? I have no idea where I am at now with my current setup which would be a good place to start lol.

I dyno'ed 149.16hp/306 ftlbs with that same set-up earlier this year and the car ran a 14.71 @ 93.36 in the 1/4.

 

[mrchill]

The 2056 seems very nice.I have not tried one yet so I am not certain. I do have one now....so I will soon know. Anyway, as far as easy, cheap and proven, the vnt 15\17\hybrid 1752 are a great deal. On the shelf anytime, compatible with everything you have save the rear mount and bracket and of course a modified turbo outlet pipe. The tuning is as easy as a firmware change away and the n75 can use a regular ALH unit. Tdiparts even has the custom downpipe for Mk3 vnt in stock...so that part is also off the shelf. And as we know, the 1752 supports 200whp. The 17 supports 180whp and the 15 supports 160whp.

 

[Matt-98AHU]

I'd like to see someone come up with a compound turbo setup for the Mk3. I have some evil plans for my '91 Jetta "Freakodiesel."...

Either that or at the very least a VNT 1752 hybrid... I've got a couple 1Z blocks and heads that need TLC and I'd love to put together one to stick into my Mk2. Make it my plaything.

 

[mrchill]

I have the 1752 in my Mk3 now...no problemo. And as you are doing a Mk2.... it will be no problem as you are making a whole custom setup.

 

[onlyn8v]

300 miles to half a tank....i don't know about the US/A3 version but my Euro version was only reported to do 600mile to a full tank max possibly more if you drive backwards sloooooowly...lol.
8v its seems that your map is some way off from being optimised........i remember doing/having quite a few maps/chips done in the same way your receiving your software / new programing as to be fair on Jeff unless you have the car in your hands its alway going to be a guesstimate......having said that he / you will get there it only takes that little bit longer thats all.
P.S......8v what type of boost control/controller are you using and boost pressure or is it all controlled via chip plus what is the max boost pressure that you know your turbo can produce steady-state!

Im still trying to iron things out so right now Its in all in testing. Im using the chip for all the engine controls. It maxes out my 20 PSI gauge when I sit on it but I dont do it for long- I never put in a EGT(Dumb I know)

I would love to do some logs in VagCom but I dont really know what tables to log

 

[Bora-chiara]

Greenskeeper, did you install a mk4 intake manifold with the changeover valve to eliminate shutter? This is something i'm looking into doing very seriously and with no too many crazy mods under the hood i've found a Euro PD150 intake is a higher flowing manifold and faces the same direction as the A3. Was that the way you went?

onlyn8v, nice IC, how does the piping look under the hood, do you have any pictures? Although reading about what I have with the hybrid turbo...it seems i'm leaning to mr.chill's thoughts on the VNT in the A3...is there quite the tuning that needs to happen to operate the VNT?

 

[greenskeeper]

Greenskeeper, did you install a mk4 intake manifold with the changeover valve to eliminate shutter? This is something i'm looking into doing very seriously and with no too many crazy mods under the hood i've found a Euro PD150 intake is a higher flowing manifold and faces the same direction as the A3. Was that the way you went?

No but would consider a better intake manifold. What shudder would this clear up? I had the usual 1600rpm shudder but a new TPS fixed that.

 

[onlyn8v]

onlyn8v, nice IC, how does the piping look under the hood, do you have any pictures? Although reading about what I have with the hybrid turbo...it seems i'm leaning to mr.chill's thoughts on the VNT in the A3...is there quite the tuning that needs to happen to operate the VNT?

I took the car out for some "beating" today. I have decided that while the turbo is spooling there is too much fuel. So at least I have a place to start. Im not unhappy with the tune- it just needs some expert tweaks, and I dont think Im going to bother Jeff until I get the exhaust done. My guess is the exhaust is not moving the gases fast enough. From what I saw Stealth do just changing out the cat to a highflow is worth some extra ponies.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Although removing the CAT will help, a better flowing DP really makes a difference. I was able to drop my IQ from 4.2 to 2.8 in my A3 and still have less smoke than before the DP switch.

Although I had considered putting a VNT-15 in my A3, and still might, but every time I drive the car I'm amazed at the smoothness and responsiveness of the current setup. I think the VNT-15 would provide both more power and better fuel economy, but right now I'm tempted to leave it as is.

Greenskeeper, if you're not sure what to do then spend your efforts now on improving breathing. A better intake and exhaust helps a lot. Improved intercooling will be worth the effort, too. And you can think about how to improve fueling (lift pump, better injection pump) as a new turbo will benefit from that. Then when you're ready the turbo can drop right in.

 

[Bora-chiara]

Greenskeep: A3's don't have a changeover valve so upon engine shutdown they shake pretty hard. It's annoying and it loosens things.

only, That is a real nice setup. Just one question, was it hard to pipe the new location for post turbo - pre IC, going down the other side now? If you can squeeze a picture of that, that'd help me a lot in my brainstorming.

IBW thanks for the quick clutch shipment by the way, im going up to idaho to get the done car tomorrow and then im sending that other clutch kit back to ya. I appreciate your help when I was in a bind. With the lower IQ post bigger DP does that also help with fuel economy? Still gathering ideas on what I want to do.

 

[BleachedBora]

...Anyway, as far as easy, cheap and proven, the vnt 15\17\hybrid 1752 are a great deal. On the shelf anytime, compatible with everything you have save the rear mount and bracket and of course a modified turbo outlet pipe. The tuning is as easy as a firmware change away and the n75 can use a regular ALH unit. Tdiparts even has the custom downpipe for Mk3 vnt in stock...so that part is also off the shelf. And as we know, the 1752 supports 200whp. The 17 supports 180whp and the 15 supports 160whp.

I'd consider the K03 hybrid as easy (bolt in, no different downpipes, hardware, sensors, or tunes), cheap (about $200 more than a stock turbo and almost HALF the cost of a 17/22, not counting all the other mods you'd have to do to make it work in a MK3), and proven--they are running at 16,000 ft in the Andee's, on the Autobahn, and on the race track. Over 50 of them out and the reliability has been amazing. Millions of miles collectively with no issues, try that with a VNT15!

And we all know the limiting factor in the 1Z/AHU is the pump and the electronics, so don't go blaming the turbo for all those problems!
-BB

 

[KROUT]

I would put a gt20 on it and be done. They are cheap and you would have alot more room for more power.

 

[greenskeeper]

Greenskeep: A3's don't have a changeover valve so upon engine shutdown they shake pretty hard. It's annoying and it loosens things.

Actually for whatever reason my A3 shuts down right away with minimal shake...not the case in our F-250!

I dyno'ed 149.16hp/306 ftlbs with that same set-up earlier this year and the car ran a 14.71 @ 93.36 in the 1/4.

So I might be around 125/250 with the stock turbo in there? I just don't see the benefit of the K03/04 hybrid if my stock turbo is already tuned to 18psi with the aligator tuning...could a few more psi make a big difference?

Greenskeeper, if you're not sure what to do then spend your efforts now on improving breathing. A better intake and exhaust helps a lot. Improved intercooling will be worth the effort, too. And you can think about how to improve fueling (lift pump, better injection pump) as a new turbo will benefit from that. Then when you're ready the turbo can drop right in.

Exhaust is already straight piped. Thought about and upgrade intake wise but haven't found anything at the moment.

And we all know the limiting factor in the 1Z/AHU is the pump and the electronics, so don't go blaming the turbo for all those problems!

If I go for all out numbers I'll have to upgrade to an A4 then! Although the VNT turbo scares me with jamming vanes and such. I love being able to drive for economy when wanted and not have to worry about the turbo getting fouled up.

 

[jackbombay]

they are running at 16,000 ft in the Andee's...

That may or may not be the turbo in my TDI Vanagon

 

[Matt-98AHU]

Matt from your experience. What's your seat of the pants dyno you get from moving up to the k03/k04? I get mixed answers on if it's really that great of an upgrade (vs stock).

Sorry I didn't see this earlier! I havn't upgraded my tune to really match the new turbo. So the difference is limited to the high RPM. I did notice it pulls a bit more strongly up high, which works with the theory that it can flow more air/more easily.

My way of looking at it was I'm not going for all out power with my A3. If my turbo failed (which I thought mine had after 265,000 miles, turns out it was the hose to the intake manifold getting pinched whenever I let off the throttle, engine would get severely choked and barely idle...) I would upgrade rather than getting a stock replacement.

The K03/04 fit the bill; notably larger compressor wheel in a stock housing. Proven reliability, easy bolt-on install and the ability to safely run more boost (which I havn't done yet. Will get a new tune when the funds allow). It's a good wastegate turbo upgrade without sacrificing low-to-mid range power. I've always enjoyed the big mid-range torque of the old TDI and didn't want to sacrifice it by going with a much larger turbo for the sake of all out hp. My car isn't a race car and never will be. With that in mind, the K03/04 made a lot of sense.

For my proposed "Freakodiesel" Mk2 project, however, that won't do. I want the car to be rediculous It all depends on what you want to do with the car. For my daily-driven Mk3 TDI, it made a lot of sense. For my hair-brained idea of a highly modded early TDI in a Mk2 Jetta ECODiesel, it won't be nearly enough

 

[mojogoes]

Quote.......
98 JETTA TDI TIH PP764s, "GATOR", 0.68 5th,straight exhaust, "FUNK" switch 340ohm, A/F -10C 1k ohm, NEW TPS NO SHUDDER!!! CHECK YOUR CHECK VALVES!!!

You obviously know the art of black magic..........LOL.

 

[blizzak]

Hey guys,

All this talk is getting me excited about attempting a VNT swap with my A3 this summer. Question though, do the 1752's available from tdiparts and kerma come with the exhaust manifold? It seems to be shown in the pictures; is it pretty much firmly attached to the turbo?:

http://www.tdiparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=746
http://www.kermatdi.com/servlet/-strse-297/17-fdsh-22-hybrid-turbo-for/Detail

Does this mean that no separate manifold purchase is required for an A3, and that the new turbo will bolt right on (i.e. the manifold fits a 1Z or AHU)? (save the other modifications mentioned in this thread)

 

[onlyn8v]

The 8v flange is the same on all 8v motors.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Hey guys,

All this talk is getting me excited about attempting a VNT swap with my A3 this summer. Question though, do the 1752's available from tdiparts and kerma come with the exhaust manifold? It seems to be shown in the pictures; is it pretty much firmly attached to the turbo?:

http://www.tdiparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=746
http://www.kermatdi.com/servlet/-strse-297/17-fdsh-22-hybrid-turbo-for/Detail

Does this mean that no separate manifold purchase is required for an A3, and that the new turbo will bolt right on (i.e. the manifold fits a 1Z or AHU)? (save the other modifications mentioned in this thread)

The turbo bolts right up, we have a DP, intake mods required. Chill also used a PD130 Passat intake, which is a great improvement over the stock intake manifold. Also eliminates the EGR.

BTW, excessive shake at shut-down is probably an indicator of worn engine mounts. I clearly have a shake in the A3 at shut down, but it's not bad, about the same as my A4. I think new mounts would help, however: 11 years is a while, even it's only been 67K.

And Aaron, I think when treated properly (right oil, don't carbon them up) VNT-15s last a long, long time. I know of more than a couple that have well over 200K on them. I think this turbo unfairly gets a bad rep.

 

[BleachedBora]

And Aaron, I think when treated properly (right oil, don't carbon them up) VNT-15s last a long, long time. I know of more than a couple that have well over 200K on them. I think this turbo unfairly gets a bad rep.

Touché Peter, I won't argue with you there; I know of one in California with 500k on it, original VNT15, injection pump etc... When treated well you're right--problem is we both know that a lot of turbos are not treated well. I don't think that a VNT15 stands up well to anything more aggressive than a tune/nozzle combo either.

Moral of the story? Treat your turbo well; and if you are one to treat it well, you'll be like me and end up with a shop accidentally dropping a nut in your intake, which will cause the turbo to fail no matter what you have done to take care of it.

 

[mojogoes]

Don't BleachedBora!! m8 as there are tooo many so called mechanics around these days that are doing this sort of thing!! like not tighting up the cam pully bolt etc i could rant on but will hold myself back and stop there!

 

[Rub87]

Got a nice turbo for sale if you'd be still looking for one..

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

IMHO two things kill turbos aside from FOD: Asking too much of them, and neglect. 15s usually fail because of neglect (wrong oil, dirty intake, failed vacuum actuation for years) or because with big fuel they spike and the owner doesn't know it or manage the spike. I meet many people with VNT-15s, chip, and big nozzles (PP520s or larger) and no boost gauge. That's a blown turbo waiting to happen.

 

[mrchill]

There are at least 100 times more vnt 15's running out there flawlessly than k03 hybrids....lets be serious. The k03 is a good bolt on....but barely better than stock according to the reports here...and dynos. A vnt anything on an AHU\1Z will far outperform the ko3 or hybrid. As far as great response, low smoke, good power.... all better with the vnt. I researched wastegates for a long time before finally giving in and going vnt on the early cars. The cost of the right wastegate is as much as a vnt upgrade. Thus.... I went vnt. As far as an inexpensive easy but slight upgrade. The ko3 hybrid is great. But for a much better overall package(power, mileage, egt, emp, low smoke, etc), its hard to beat the vnt. And lets face it, most people who start modding...keep moddding. The vnt gives a very high ceiling in case one chooses more upgrades later. The k03 setup SEVERELY limits you in all aspects.

 

[kooyajerms]

I agree, but what about Hans' experience?
Why such a low gain in the dyno when he moved to a GT1749VA which is supposed to be better than than a VNT-15? The smoke was removed, but do you think it was an issue of his tune? He's got an alligator and I believe he has tuned it up and down, all over the place (don't quote me). I'm not picking a fight, but it doesn't seem as his conversion was that significant. Just trying to find out more

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=157345

Fuel economy stayed pretty much the same going from a gt15/17 hybrid wastegate to the vnt. There was a slight improvement going from stock gt15 to the gt15/17, about 1-2mpg. I suspect going to a bigger turbo than the 1749va might show further improvement.

Letting off the go-pedal... hard to say if there's much difference between the tuned wg (at higher rpm, say above 2500) and tuned vnt versions. Been a while and it's hard to remember, vnt obviously does a bit better at lower rpms. I can comment on stock vs. tuned maps though. Stock tune, letting off the throttle boost drops to zero. W/ tune, boost drops slowly down to a few psi. This tells me the tuned version is holding the vanes more closed, but I haven't looked at no load N75 duty cycles to be sure. And as you might expect, boost increases faster when getting back on it.

 

[mrchill]

That is a very good question. I didnt get to dyno my car ar NEDD VII, but I will withing a couple of weeks....perhaps mine will be the same....or different. I would have expected more as well. Especially given the work he put into it. We will see soon.

 

[mojogoes]

That is a very good question. I didnt get to dyno my car ar NEDD VII, but I will withing a couple of weeks....perhaps mine will be the same....or different. I would have expected more as well. Especially given the work he put into it. We will see soon.

He's now probably missing quite a bit of fuel using the PP520's and needs to move to the PP764's...........does the new setup overboost / spike etc i would take a little guess and say no as there isn't an abundance of fuel being injected..........more fuel please!!

 

[onlyn8v]

Hey guys- I just was able to lean into 5th gear last night- It spikes past 20 and holds at 19. While still smokey up top Im thinking another 2 psi- how can I achieve that? (I know a boost controller but I dont want any CELs)

 

[jsrmonster]

install 3bar map sensor in ecu and RC4 - I've made several of these A3 conversions (I'll ship yours this week chill) ;-)

Jeff