Turbo surge problem - please help

Jandro

Active member
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Location
Croatia
TDI
Seat Ibiza FR TDI 300+
first, sorry on my bad english
problem is next... car is ibiza fr tdi 1.9, BLT engine code with 3.0TDI turbo (KKK BV50) and 250hp
this is problem, listen please, huge turbo surge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuBeOLPSUQM
and what is sound between 2500 and 3000rpm at acceleration??? surge when turbo is spooling???

what causes turbo surge and how to get rid of this stupid sound that kills turbo?? suggestions??
 

JaredC01

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Location
St. Louis, MO
TDI
2015 Passat SE - 6MT
In gassers, compressor surge is usually caused by closing the throttle body and forcing charged air back through the compressor inlet... Since diesels don't have throttle body's, I can only assume it's something to do with the valves and airflow (not enough airflow through the engine), but that's completely guessing.
 

ErackTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2010
Location
Hamilton
TDI
04 jetta. 13 jetta, 04 jetta
i would also like to kno how to fix this as my 17/22 surges like a mofo
about 5/7 psi fluctuation seen on gauge
 

mk1-83

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Location
Holland
TDI
LUPO 1.9 tdi 300+ hp
Remap the boostmap to less boost where it surge. Also a bv50 dont like surge and high boost it have weak side bearing.
 

Jandro

Active member
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Location
Croatia
TDI
Seat Ibiza FR TDI 300+
Remap the boostmap to less boost where it surge. Also a bv50 dont like surge and high boost it have weak side bearing.
hmmm... i will talk with my tuner these days... but boost is small in that range where is surge because car start pulling hard till after 3000 rpm's

and, can these turbo hold 300hp?? it's need about 2,5bar pressure for that power?? and i need to buy a fired 320+ nozzles... and i'm interested in what I got with camshaft?? some link can someone give me too look??

thanks!
 

storx

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2006
Location
Earth!!
TDI
2009 Jetta CR140, 2010 Corvette Z06
1)surge can be caused from to much vacuum on the intake track .... to test this.. take the entire air filter system off from the maf.. allowing the air to go directly into the maf.. go for a quick ride and if this fixes your surge.. upgrade your intake..

2)surge can be caused from poor CCV, blockage or restriction.. fix the restriction..

3)surge can be caused AUTOMATICS only if torque converter isnt allowing boost to beat drive pressure.. on cummins and powerstrokes they upgrade torque converter and valve body.

4)surge can be caused from tune needing adjustment...adjust the tune...

5)surge can be caused from vanes allowing drive pressure to be higher than boost...adjust the tune...

Drive Pressure: To imitate a high drive pressure situation, try breathing in a normal breath, then cover your mouth with your hand and exhale. That is what you're doing to your engine.
 
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Jandro

Active member
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Location
Croatia
TDI
Seat Ibiza FR TDI 300+
storx, thank you very mutch!! i have a k&n filter and free intake so vacum on intake is not problem... and i thing i don't have restriction... egr valve and throttle body is removed... all intake pipes are 50mm width...
so i think it's 4 or 5 problem...
 
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brum

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2009
Location
Bulgaria
TDI
Passat B5, 1.9 TDI, AFN
Surge can be also because of turbo intake. Remove the whole turbo intake and replace it with fine metal mesh just for a test. There will be pretty strong sound, but the surge will still be easy to hear. Of course to do that the ECU must be set to work without the MAF.

Surge can also be result of bad tune. I had mine playing with the N75 duty cycle up and down (due to over "adjusted" PID controller in the ECU) and this also resulted in surge.

Solve the surge issues first before you increase the boost to 2.2 bar. If you don't - you'll be searching for new turbo pretty soon.
 
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storx

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2006
Location
Earth!!
TDI
2009 Jetta CR140, 2010 Corvette Z06
Jandro, disconnect the air box from your Mac and go for a ride just to rule your air box out
 

Jandro

Active member
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Location
Croatia
TDI
Seat Ibiza FR TDI 300+
airbox is out.. here are pictures how intake looks like..
(big pipe is 80mm width and 180° silicone pipe to turbo intake is 50mm width)

the turbo is up, behind intake manifold


here's the intake temporarily to try with k&n filter


and closer look to turbo and intake pipes

(black is reducing from 80mm to 50mm)
 

storx

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2006
Location
Earth!!
TDI
2009 Jetta CR140, 2010 Corvette Z06
Not good... Don't use silicone on intake on any turns... They can collapse so easily and restrict the intake under boost
 

Curious Chris

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 11, 2001
Location
Pineview GA
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 RIP Rockford IL
I vote is 4 as I have a VNT 17/22 and I have no boost issues. It climbs rapidly to 26 psi and overshoots not more than a few tenths of a psi.
 

Jandro

Active member
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Location
Croatia
TDI
Seat Ibiza FR TDI 300+
Not good... Don't use silicone on intake on any turns... They can collapse so easily and restrict the intake under boost
metal pipe is between these two silicone so i think they can't shrink and close intake to turbo?
 

MariusWRT

New member
Joined
May 17, 2013
Location
Bucharest, Romania
TDI
VW Golf Mk4 tdi
I am also following this thread as i have the exact same problem and couldn't figure it out .I saw the video Jandro posted and it was the same dangerous compressor surge and the boost bounces rapidly up and down from 1.5 to 1.8bar on full throtle.

There is no piping problem since i now have maf delete and i did a run without the intake piping attached to the turbo and it still surges.

The turbo is new but i suspect the stop screw isn't set up right,maybe it is too permisive and the vanes are completly shut ;i'll look into that too.It's pretty frustrating because it should work but it doesn't :)

I am installing a lift pump since i was surprised to see that my car didn't have one(it was an AJM 115 and now i put a BUK160 engine).I'll try to see if that changes anything.
 
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Sheppy

Active member
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Location
Worcestershire
TDI
Polo GT TDi, 2260, Stock injectors, 225bhp
1)surge can be caused from to much vacuum on the intake track .... to test this.. take the entire air filter system off from the maf.. allowing the air to go directly into the maf.. go for a quick ride and if this fixes your surge.. upgrade your intake..

2)surge can be caused from poor CCV, blockage or restriction.. fix the restriction..

3)surge can be caused AUTOMATICS only if torque converter isnt allowing boost to beat drive pressure.. on cummins and powerstrokes they upgrade torque converter and valve body.

4)surge can be caused from tune needing adjustment...adjust the tune...

5)surge can be caused from vanes allowing drive pressure to be higher than boost...adjust the tune...

Drive Pressure: To imitate a high drive pressure situation, try breathing in a normal breath, then cover your mouth with your hand and exhale. That is what you're doing to your engine.

Sorry to drag up such an old thread but storx could you explain why #2 is true?

Story - I removed my CCV pipe and re-routed into a redbull can to catch the oil. I put a rubber bung into the port on the aluminium TIP where the CCV pipe connects to seal it up.

I had a turbo screaming/surging sound between 4000-4500 rev for a while (I could make it happen almost every time) and it mysteriously stopped (aboslutely no occurances of it).

Having read your post I remeber I also threw away the redbull can and reconnected the CCV recently, that probably coincides with the time that the surging/screaming sound stopped.

Could I be right?

Harry
 

poisas

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2014
Location
Lithuania, Siauliai city
TDI
1.9tdi 81kw 4motion passat b5
Remap the boostmap to less boost where it surge. Also a bv50 dont like surge and high boost it have weak side bearing.
Actualy bv50 is a very good turbo it holds 2.4bar boost for 18moth, it has smaller bearing, but it has much larger oil canals for better cooling, and it turbo its not clockable
 

Leonpd150

Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2021
Location
Croatia
TDI
1.9 arl
Hey,

I am still looking for a solution for this problem.

I have a seat Leon 1m 1.9 TDI ARL with GTB2260VKLR turbo and 120% firad nozzles bigger valves 276 camshaft and my turbo surges on around 2 bar and and 3000rpm i have already replaced the turbo but the surging didn't go away a have opet intake with 80mm pipeing and big airtec intercooler.

I would really appreciate your help.
Thanks in advance
 

Leonpd150

Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2021
Location
Croatia
TDI
1.9 arl
I have a high lift valve springs from darkside development and we are thinking that they are causing this problem does any one have some experiance with this
 

PakProtector

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2014
Location
AnnArbor, MI
TDI
Mk.4 and the Cummins-es
Gents, surge is from operating at too high a pressure and not enough flow. Pressure ratio( inlet vs outlet ) that is. The compressor stalls. Soooo, increase the inlet pressure or decrease the outlet pressure. Or both.
cheers,
Douglas
 

tdi_my live

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2011
Location
Germany
TDI
Skoda Fabia
I have a high lift valve springs from darkside development and we are thinking that they are causing this problem does any one have some experiance with this
Did you read in the comments of the Youtube video what the reason was?
Bad software!
 

PakProtector

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2014
Location
AnnArbor, MI
TDI
Mk.4 and the Cummins-es
how do I increse inlet presure
The surge happens at relatively low flow, and therefore not much restriction is present. You need to decrease the pressure ratio( effectively boost requested ) until rpm comes up and with it flow to keep the blades from stalling.
cheers,
Douglas
 
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