Turbo Pin / Replacment Turbo Vane Assembly

Nathanael Greene

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2021
Location
Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta Wagon 1.9 PD/BEW
Hi guys! I recently pulled the turbo off my 04 Jetta Wagon (BEW) for cleaning. how ever I got it apart no problem, but after it was apart I lost one of the little pins that holds the vane guide ring thingy, I didnt realize they were removeable. 😕 any body know where I could find one of these? or what they are made of? mines not magnetic or conductive. my brother has a mill so if i knew what material it was he could make it.

The other thing is that when I tried to tap the vane assembly out from the back, it just chipped off the little edge, and the assembly didn't come out. is there a better way to get it out? Will It be a problem if those chips are there? If so is there somewhere I can just buy the vane assembly rather than an entire new turbo?

Here are a few pics:

This is the pin.

This is where the pin came from.

These are the chips on the inside lip.

Thanks,
Nate
 

fatmobile

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2019
Location
north iowa
TDI
an ALH M-TDI in a MK2, a 2000 Jetta, 2003 wagon
There is a washer/heat shield that sits against the chipped area.
It keeps hot exhaust gas away from the cartridge.
With it chipped like that hot gasses might get by and mess with the turbo.
I think gpop shop can get any part you need.
 

Tdijarhead

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Location
Lawrenceville PA
TDI
2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Wife’s car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
Those 3 torx screws come out also, and there are additional spacers underneath held in place by those screws. You need to finish disassembly to finish the cleaning process.

I lost one of those pins a couple of years ago. I have a rack of aluminum rivets so I selected one of the right diameter cut and smoothed it to length. I’ve probably put close to 50k on that piece of aluminum, I had my turbo off again a few months ago for a gasket leak so since it was off I checked and cleaned it. It was still working fine so back together it went.
 

Nathanael Greene

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2021
Location
Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta Wagon 1.9 PD/BEW
Yeah I had the three torx screws out when I was trying to tap it out, I just put them back in so as not to loos them. What's the best way to get that whole assembly out? Do you think a steal pin would work, or would it wear on other parts?

Nate
 

Tdijarhead

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Location
Lawrenceville PA
TDI
2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Wife’s car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
When you take the three torx screws out that are in your last picture that vane assembly will come out. The vanes are underneath the ring. Clean both side of the assembly up. Carb/brake clean, be careful not to distort the various parts.

As far as steel goes, I don’t know. Hardware store should have aluminum rivets.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Here's the best thing you can do... trash it. Not the answer you want to hear, but it's what you should do.
 

03TDICommuter

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Location
So. Cal
TDI
01' NB, 5spd
There's little stress on that pin, HOWEVER you don't want it to rust. Put a 'Want to Buy' add in the 'for sale/wanted section'. Someone will have a turbo they've already taken apart that they can mail you a pin. OR, measure one of your originals, go to Ace Hardware or online to McMaster Carr and look for a stainless pin.
 

Nathanael Greene

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2021
Location
Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta Wagon 1.9 PD/BEW
Here's the best thing you can do... trash it. Not the answer you want to hear, but it's what you should do.
I’m assuming you mean trash the whole turbo? What's your reasoning for just trashing it? I'm just wanting to learn. I wish I could find just the vane assembly as the rest of the turbo seams great. I found one on ebay, but it was coming from china, and I'm not sure of the quality. I contacted gpop shop so we'll see.

There's little stress on that pin, HOWEVER you don't want it to rust. Put a 'Want to Buy' add in the 'for sale/wanted section'. Someone will have a turbo they've already taken apart that they can mail you a pin. OR, measure one of your originals, go to Ace Hardware or online to McMaster Carr and look for a stainless pin.
Makes sense, do you think the heat expansion factor would effect things?

When you take the three torx screws out that are in your last picture that vane assembly will come out. The vanes are underneath the ring. Clean both side of the assembly up. Carb/brake clean, be careful not to distort the various parts.

As far as steel goes, I don’t know. Hardware store should have aluminum rivets.
I did remove the torx screws, and it wouldn't come out, the three chips happened with the screws removed. I guess it's just really stuck, you think heat could maybe help?

Also does $800-900 sound right for a new turbo? And would a VNT17 work to replace my KP39?

Thanks for all the input!
Nate
 

03TDICommuter

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Location
So. Cal
TDI
01' NB, 5spd
I did remove the torx screws, and it wouldn't come out, the three chips happened with the screws removed. I guess it's just really stuck, you think heat could maybe help?
I completely missed the chipped out section. That's a problem. Like Fatmobile said, the heat shield isn't going to do its job very well. You will need a replacement VNT section too. Unless you can find a good used assembly, you should just get a replacement turbo.
 

Tdijarhead

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Location
Lawrenceville PA
TDI
2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Wife’s car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
Even though I read about the chips I missed that in the pic. Yeah you’ll need a new turbo. Idparts, metalmanparts, cascadegerman tunemyeuro, all are good sources and reputable vendors. A VNT will work but I believe you’ll need a tune. Check on that. $900 is about right, don’t buy a chinese crap turbo off eBay/amazon, the price is tempting but you’ll hate the results.

After Franko6 commented about trashing it I took a closer look, that must really be stuck, they just normally lift out or if you turn the turbo upside down it’ll fall out.
 

ghohouston

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Location
Lewisville, Texas
TDI
2001 Jetta Sedan TDI 5 Speed
Those chips aren't the end of the world. I did that to my old turbo at one point, and still ran it for tens of thousands of miles afterwards. May not be "right", but I was in a very tight financial spot at that time. I only replaced it because one vane was sticky/damaged, and was causing limp mode issues.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Ghouston, I read your commnent. I disagree.

Nathaniel, you broke the vane backing plate in three places. You think that doesn't make any difference? You can't go breaking internal parts off of a turbo and expect it to be 'OK'. It's not. You broke it. That is my solid opinion.

To be completely truthful, it's not like I don't have a collection of pieces and parts for a variety of internals for turbos. It's that you should not reinstall a turbo that you have broken major components in such a fashion that you have corrupted it at it's core.


Here is the assembly, uncorrupted. If you look at the three locations that are broken out of the body of the VNT's seal area. You are worried about 'chips falling into the mechanism. I'm worried that you have destroyed the exhaust side seal. Notice in the following picture the washer that sits under the exhaust wheel. That is the seal for the exhaust that you have broken pieces out and the washer will no longer seal correctly.

So, my sad advice is, you need a different turbo. We usually have these in stock, but at the moment we are subjected to drop-shipping. That isn't a $900 turbo, unless you buy the upgrade VNT-17, which honestly, we prefer over the VNT-15. The 15's are not that expensive. We have rebuilt ones we trust.
 

Nathanael Greene

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2021
Location
Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta Wagon 1.9 PD/BEW
I totally understand that the problem would be from the leaking, not the chips in the turbo. I have all 3 chips that came out. And I understand that it's a problem. In fact, I haven't just made the pin and reinstalled it 'cause I don't like the idea of an iffy turbo, its not super easy to get to if it gose bad agian. As a 20 year old kid with not much extra cash around, I just wish I could replace only the broken part, but if there are no replacement parts then I understand. The intake side is in great condition as far as I can tell.

If i did find a replacement backing plate would you still say replace the whole turbo, Frank?

Also when I looked at the VNT 15 it has a different intake connector, and currently my car has a KP39. Isn't the VNT 15 for the ALH?

And also I'm still curios how you all usually get the backing plate out? Is it aluminum?

I really appreciate all the input, thanks guys,
Nate
 

Vince Waldon

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Location
Edmonton AB Canada
TDI
2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
The manufacturers consider them a wear item and so don't sell replacement internals, which is why you're only able to find the odd bit of aftermarket stuff.

They might have a point (although I suppose you could argue that they also just want to sell turbos!).

The other perspective is that *if* it blows it can (and often does) allow liquid oil to enter one or more cylinders, causing a runaway, bent rods, or both. Engines can be replaced but a runaway can take you by surprise and cause an accident or worse.

So it becomes a question of risk vs reward... and in my mind the stakes are higher than just the inconveniece of having to pull the turbo again. :)
 

Nathanael Greene

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2021
Location
Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta Wagon 1.9 PD/BEW
Ok, that makes sense, I hadn't thought of a runaway engine. I just pictured the turbo failing, and my car loosing power.

Nate
 

ghohouston

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Location
Lewisville, Texas
TDI
2001 Jetta Sedan TDI 5 Speed
Frank, all I meant was if he is in a pinch, it could probably get him by for a bit. By no means do I think it should be left that way, if can be avoided. Obviously it's a gamble anytime a questionable part of any sort is ran.
 

Nathanael Greene

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2021
Location
Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta Wagon 1.9 PD/BEW
Ghouston, I read your commnent. I disagree.

Nathaniel, you broke the vane backing plate in three places. You think that doesn't make any difference? You can't go breaking internal parts off of a turbo and expect it to be 'OK'. It's not. You broke it. That is my solid opinion.

To be completely truthful, it's not like I don't have a collection of pieces and parts for a variety of internals for turbos. It's that you should not reinstall a turbo that you have broken major components in such a fashion that you have corrupted it at it's core.


Here is the assembly, uncorrupted. If you look at the three locations that are broken out of the body of the VNT's seal area. You are worried about 'chips falling into the mechanism. I'm worried that you have destroyed the exhaust side seal. Notice in the following picture the washer that sits under the exhaust wheel. That is the seal for the exhaust that you have broken pieces out and the washer will no longer seal correctly.

So, my sad advice is, you need a different turbo. We usually have these in stock, but at the moment we are subjected to drop-shipping. That isn't a $900 turbo, unless you buy the upgrade VNT-17, which honestly, we prefer over the VNT-15. The 15's are not that expensive. We have rebuilt ones we trust.
Hey Frank! Looking at the VNT 15 Vs the VNT 17 Vs the KP39 (the model that came off my car), The VNT 17 and KP39 look completely interchangeable, however, the VNT 15 has a completely different type of connector for the intake pipe. is the VNT 15 really compatible with an 04 Jetta BEW? is there some sort of adapter?

Thanks,
Nate
 

pedroYUL

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2011
Location
MI, USA
TDI
2015 Passat CVCA; 2015 GSW CRUA; 2012 wagon CJAA; 2004 wagon BEW
Nope, VNT-15 is not for your BEW engine. You need a VNT-17 or another KP-39
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
I never analyzed the internals of the turbo. However, if you want pieces, I can help you out. NO promises. And I get the 'I'm broke' part.


I'm really not a big fan of MyTurboDiesel, but this one is decent information. Around 7:30 in the clip, it shows the VNT control ring and the VNT blade collar. For lack of a better name, vane mechanism. What you see in the pictures are what would cause me to stop on this turbo, even if the blade collar is good. At about 10:30 in the clip, it shows unusual wear in that turbo manifold face, where the vane mechanism is supposed to hover against it, however they two parts shouldn't touch. That looks like some FOD (Foreign Object Damage) went through the turbo.

On high mileage turbos, both sides of the plates that come in close contact with the vanes will get wear divots. The tendency is for the old turbos vanes to stick in the wear marks. Test assemble the vane plate without the control ring and see if you can make any of the vanes stick by working them. Reassemble with the control ring and see if it still runs smoothly. Test the assembled unit that it goes from 5in lbs vacuum to 18lbs smoothly. If not, fix the faults, or figure on replacing the turbo.

I didn't realize that was a KP39. The difference in the one I have here is that the boost pipe is the clamp on, not snap in. The seating area for the CHRA is rough. The unit with the turbo blades and where it fits into the cast iron manifold is a machined surface. So, it's not a hard guess to say the turbo is 350K+. You can see the difference in my pictures.

You got any more questions, it's easier to give a call.
 

Nathanael Greene

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2021
Location
Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta Wagon 1.9 PD/BEW
Thanks Frank!
Cost wise trying to rebuild sounds cool, but I've seen a lot of people warning against rebuilding, I'm pretty new to all this so I don't really know how bad it could be if the turbo went bad. If it's like Vince Waldon said, that's pretty risky. Also the fact that I can't get the vane thingy out makes me lean more towards a new turbo, or at least a trusted rebuilt one. So who sells rebuilt VNT 17s or KP39s, that people trust?

Also is this the CHRA? The thing with all the vanes attached?

Thanks,
Nate
 

Vince Waldon

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Location
Edmonton AB Canada
TDI
2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
Don't get me wrong, not every turbo that fails takes out the rods or drives you into uncoming traffic. :)

But... it is not uncommon either... and so part of the calculation when deciding on "fix" vs. "new".
 

Nathanael Greene

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2021
Location
Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta Wagon 1.9 PD/BEW
I didn't realize that was a KP39. The difference in the one I have here is that the boost pipe is the clamp on, not snap in. The seating area for the CHRA is rough. The unit with the turbo blades and where it fits into the cast iron manifold is a machined surface. So, it's not a hard guess to say the turbo is 350K+. You can see the difference in my pictures.

You got any more questions, it's easier to give a call.

Also, Frank, did you mean the turbo in the video, your turbo or my turbo when you said it's probably 350k+ ? And you mean 350k+ miles on the turbo right?

Thanks,
Nate
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
A good working BEW turbo is harder to come by. The sample VNT-15 I have is a takeoff and it is better than the turbo you have.

If I do have a BEW in some sort of condition, I'll take it apart and see. If nothing else, I probably can get a whole vane mechanism out of it.

You got the screw removed from the vane mechanism. Usually at that time, the thing virtually falls out. The way the tiny allen head screws are in that, it takes some beating and sometimes, heating and penetrating oil to remove those screws. I use a punch on the face of the mechanism, striking on either side of the mounting screws. When I'm done, the mechanism falls out. Next time, if you have such a repeat, use a punch in the screw hole and tap it sideways to break the carbon loose.

Actually, the VNT-15 will fit, sorta. You'd have to find an older style pancake pipe and convert to the spring clamps. You also don't have the 'smart' actuator, which I generally have tuned out anyway.

Depending on how 'stuck' you are for a turbo, maybe I can fix you up.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
CHRA: Center Housing Rotating Assembly That includes the Compressor, Exhaust wheels with shaft and housing.

call me and we can get things worked out.
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
............................................but I've seen a lot of people warning against rebuilding,....................................
For good reason. Turbos and injection pumps are often a fail rebuild without proper expertise. They're just so expensive.
Best bet is a new unit, or a certified rebuild or take your chances with a used unit.
 

fatmobile

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2019
Location
north iowa
TDI
an ALH M-TDI in a MK2, a 2000 Jetta, 2003 wagon
" The sample VNT-15 I have is a takeoff and it is better than the turbo you have "
@Frank, are you saying a VNT-15 is a better turbo than a KP-39 or just that the one you have is in better shape?
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Mine isn't broken. I use VNT-17 upgrades a lot... When it's appropriate. Actually, there are some strange comparisons you can make from the 15 or 17. But generally, around 180hp, the 17 is quite good. That changes at 200hp as the VNT17 will not survive.
 

Nathanael Greene

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2021
Location
Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta Wagon 1.9 PD/BEW
So here's what I'm thinking right now. Since my car only has 109,432 miles, I should just bite the bullet and invest now in a new turbo since the car should still be around a long time. The question is whether to get a VNT 17 or 15? Is it hard to tune out the smart actuator? Or could I put the actuator from the old one on the the 15? would getting the outlet pipe from an ALH work, or would I still need this?

https://www.cascadegerman.com/product/vnt17-1-38/

If I did, By the time I got that and the outlet pipe, I'd be at the the same price or more than a VNT 17, just trying to think every thing through. Also, I think performance is cool, but I'm most concerned with it just working longer, which one is better for that?

Thanks again guys for all the input, I really appreciate it,
Nate
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Nathan, sorry for the delay. It got busier than normal.

Judging the turbo you have, I was trying to guess how old it is. 350k? And now you say only 105k?? I have to wonder what went wrong.
The one I have I know exactly what it came off and the mileage. An '01 Yellow Bug with 185,000 miles. It was replaced by a VNT-17. But now I see, this isn't an upgrade for your BEW wagon. It's what the engine came with.

With your engine, you don't need that 'plug', as the pipe you have is exactly what you need. It clips into the turbo and does the same going into the pancake pipe. I hate those 'plugs'. They are expensive and they act like a restrictor.

As for the business of the 'smart actuator', I like to eliminate them. It's somewhat worthless what it does anyway. Basically, if the turbo is boosting too much or too little compared to the actuator arm's position, the sensor notifies the ECU and you get an 'out of range' message. In states where the emission controls are mandated and in others where the Check Engine Light (CEL) is on, it may not pass inspection. If you simply plug the 'smart actuator' into the line and leave it like that, the CEL stays off...assuming the smart actuator is working correctly to begin with.

Otherwise, we tune out the 'smart actuator'.

We have VNT -17's coming on a regular basis. It's virtually the same as the KP-39 except no 'smart' to it. I would NOT recommend removing the existing actuator and installing it onto a new Garrett, as when you break security paint, it will void the warranty. Besides the actuators are different. We prefer the Garretts over the Borg Warner. I think generally, the Garretts work better.

If can plug the smart actuator into the wiring, zip tie it to something convenient and forget it.
 
Top