Turbo "dead" <60 miles after 120K service

[purtishansel]

Context: My car is a 2010 Jettawagen; I haven't ever experienced a decrease in boost performance, I have a 90 mile round trip daily commute and my driving style is more aggressive (for proper regen hygiene, right? ). The car has 121K miles on it or so, mostly issue-free, although I did have a fuel pump problem earlier this year (lifter/intermediate pumps though, not the HPFP) (lucky, right?) and got them both replaced.

Background: I got the 120K service at the dealership last week, picked the car up on Thursday night to get ready for a weekend roadtrip. After about 30 minutes of highway driving the next day the car starts whirring loudly, as I get over to the shoulder the Glow Plug light flashes and I get the "Service Engine Now" message. I turn the car off and call the dealership up, telling them I suspect a turbo death whine -- they send a tow truck.
Once I get to the dealership, they check whats going on and tell me the turbo is "dead" and that it's going to be expensive to fix it. I wait to speak to the service manager, he tells me that these turbos have known issues. I asked him if he thinks his team is at fault whether it was a shoddy oil change that either used the wrong spec oil or got dust/debris in the system, he said no. He said he would run an oil analysis to prove that oil is clean, but reminded me that even if it was related to bad oil that his team isn't necessarily at fault.
They kept offering to get me in a loaner and back on the road and that we'd figure everything out this week -- I consented, and I'm looking for some info so I can have the best shot at working this out.

Questions:
-Would bad oil/debris have killed the turbo within 60 miles? If so, what are the odds of an oil analysis catching that and them admitting fault?
-They did a software update as part of the service, did I read somewhere that this latest software update had something to do with the turbo?
-The manager said he heard the whirring when they were checking out the car, would they really start my car when I told them I suspected turbo issues and if so wouldn't that be really bad for the engine?
-Is it a waste of time trying to get the dealership to admit fault and pay for this or should I just cut my losses and get it towed to the local guru. I'd like to never see this dealership again, but if they'll pay for a new turbo I'll probably let them.


Let me know what questions you have -- I'll be on my commute home (in the loaner '15 Passat TDI, not bad) here in a bit, but will keep feeding info/questions when I'm available

Thanks!

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Whirring (like a siren) loudly is the most common sign of turbo failure. If your car is doing this, do not continue to drive it, as it's likely that complete failure isn't far off. You want to replace the turbo before it fails completely and pumps all of our engine oil back into the air intake, causing a hydrolock.

Turbo failures are not uncommon, it's very unlikely that you will get the dealership to somehow accept responsibility for what is likely a routine failure.

I recommend taking your car to Diesel Land. Anuthee will get you fixed up for much less than the dealership will, even with the price of a tow. http://www.dieselland.net/

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Get your own oil sample, don't trust dealer.

They should not have started the engine, they should have scanned for codes first.

I hope (and you should feel lucky) the turbo did not spit all the oil into the exhaust system, it will take out the DPF which is at least $2,500. The Turbo it self is $1000-$1100. Don't let them charge you much more. If they do, have it towed from the dealer to independent shop...

Get a lawyer that specializes in consumer law.... They are hard to find... It may not be their fault but I suspect it could be as you clearly do. They may be willing cut you a break on parts and labor cost.

 

[dmarsingill]

Get your own oil sample, don't trust dealer.



Get a lawyer that specializes in consumer law.... They are hard to find... It may not be their fault but I suspect it could be as you clearly do. They may be willing cut you a break on parts and labor cost.

This is what is wrong with our country. Why would it be ethical to make a dealership pay for something that hasn't been proven to be a problem at the dealership?

Donald

 

[wrenchman30]

probably too late now but I would have wanted my old oil filter to check for metal, the new one should also be checked, I doubt that any oil would cause a turbo failure in just 60 miles, if you hear the turbo rubbing it makes a awful grinding noise, if it was a air type noise it could be a boost hose off, I hope you checked your oil level, no oil would cause a turbo failure for sure.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

This is what is wrong with our country. Why would it be ethical to make a dealership pay for something that hasn't been proven to be a problem at the dealership? Donald

Don't lecture me about America. America is great, and you don't know me. Your comment is what is wrong with America. I am not talking about frivolous lawsuits. You are confused. A problem with America is car dealers, doing poor slip shot work, lying and the lack of professional responsibility. Fact, read this forum and the shenanigans dealers do. I'm not talking about a frivolous lawsuit. Nuff said there.

I'm NOT saying dealer should pay for it, if there is no fault (except the bad turbo design that fails at 80K-120K). Turbo failure is all too common, but the coincidence of the turbo failing right after major service is suspicious. Yes? Yes. BUT you do have to PROVE IT. The first mistake is taking it to dealer for service post warranty. Second is letting them touch it after the fact it failed soon after service. I'd at least check oil level, read codes and take my own oil sample and watch the dealer do it. Question dmarsingill: Does the dealer or VWoA trust a TDI owners after the HPFP fails? No; they take a fuel sample. Why? They want to blame you or don't trust you. Why should we trust VW dealers? I wouldn't be surprised if they forgot to put oil back into the engine, wrong kind, too little, too much (happened to me +1 liter)... Letting the dealer check the oil, is like letting the fox watch the hen house. I have been lied to by the dealer and had proof; they will take responsibility if you force them. However before the correct action came, they went into automatic excuses and justification.... I had to rub their nose in it before they went, oh ok.

NUMBER 2- Dealer service departments NEVER take any blame and NEVER take responsibility if they can get away it. They rely on assuming the customer is stupid and/or trusting. Trust me, you should not trust dealer service, That is what is wrong with America, increasing dishonesty. YES I had to sue a dealer and the manufacture over gross stupidity and lying. I thought they would do the right thing. NO! They did not. Due to terms of the settlement, I can't discuss it. I have never sued anyone before this and don't plan on doing it again.

My experience with VW dealer oil changes (and this is the least of their transgressions) a full LITER overfill. Post warranty I do all my own maintenance or bring to independent shop (where to survive they have to do a good job, for word of mouth reputation). Independent shops are in general owner operated and mechanics their self and they and they people they hire are more competent and give a better value. Dealers hire people out of trade school with little skill or ability. They don't care, they are bodies they pay a small hourly rate and charge customers big (their business plan). Once a VW mechanic gets some experience they leave and go to different dealer (brand or franchise) that pays better. VW dealers must pay poorly. They have big turn over. Independent shops tend to be owner operated by experienced mechanics and they hire experienced mechanics. The OP made the mistake of going to the dealer to start with.

My point is valid, the dealer will try and cover up, blame you or something else, but never fess up if they screw up. That is why you can't let them investigate. I can't tell you how incompetent they can be, it's almost unbelievable. Just read these forums and get a clue. Even when faced with facts, dealers will DENY.... Yes that is what is wrong with America, you must sue sometimes to get people to do the right thing. If that is your plan, get taken advantage of, you are welcome to it. I am not talking about frivolous lawsuits.

 

[oilhammer]

The turbo died. It happens. We do a lot of them. Had nothing to do with the previous service. Some die at 80k miles. Some make it to 250k miles.

It isn't the dealer's fault. If they did something wrong, the turbo would have been dead before it made it out of the lot.

 

[xjay1337]

Don't lecture me about America. America is great, and you don't know me. Your comment is what is wrong with America.

And that is what's wrong with America!

Typical really, some work goes on, something breaks, and then the technician who performed the work gets blamed.

I very very very strongly doubt the dealer service had any effect on your turbo going.

If the oil level in the engine was low enough to cause there to be no oil flow to the turbo, you would have gotten an oil pressure warning.

Even if the wrong grade oil was used, you would not have suffered turbo failure.

If your engine was overfilled with oil, it would not cause the turbo it fail.

If your turbo breaks you are not going to have a fault code "turbo broken". People reply on electronics too much this day and age.

Sometimes starting is required to help diagnose, although you can check the shaft movement pretty easily by taking the inlet pipework off. If the turbo is broken, it's broken, starting the engine and leaving it on idle won't really cause any more damage, it produces no boost anyway.

The turbo failed. It happens. Move on.

 

[dmarsingill]

Don't lecture me about America. America is great, and you don't know me. Your comment is what is wrong with America. I am not talking about frivolous lawsuits. You are confused. A problem with America is car dealers, doing poor slip shot work, lying and the lack of professional responsibility. Fact, read this forum and the shenanigans dealers do. I'm not talking about a frivolous lawsuit. Nuff said there.

I'm NOT saying dealer should pay for it, if there is no fault (except the bad turbo design that fails at 80K-120K). Turbo failure is all too common, but the coincidence of the turbo failing right after major service is suspicious. Yes? Yes. BUT you do have to PROVE IT. The first mistake is taking it to dealer for service post warranty. Second is letting them touch it after the fact it failed soon after service. I'd at least check oil level, read codes and take my own oil sample and watch the dealer do it. Question dmarsingill: Does the dealer or VWoA trust a TDI owners after the HPFP fails? No; they take a fuel sample. Why? They want to blame you or don't trust you. Why should we trust VW dealers? I wouldn't be surprised if they forgot to put oil back into the engine, wrong kind, too little, too much (happened to me +1 liter)... Letting the dealer check the oil, is like letting the fox watch the hen house. I have been lied to by the dealer and had proof; they will take responsibility if you force them. However before the correct action came, they went into automatic excuses and justification.... I had to rub their nose in it before they went, oh ok.

NUMBER 2- Dealer service departments NEVER take any blame and NEVER take responsibility if they can get away it. They rely on assuming the customer is stupid and/or trusting. Trust me, you should not trust dealer service, That is what is wrong with America, increasing dishonesty. YES I had to sue a dealer and the manufacture over gross stupidity and lying. I thought they would do the right thing. NO! They did not. Due to terms of the settlement, I can't discuss it. I have never sued anyone before this and don't plan on doing it again.

My experience with VW dealer oil changes (and this is the least of their transgressions) a full LITER overfill. Post warranty I do all my own maintenance or bring to independent shop (where to survive they have to do a good job, for word of mouth reputation). Independent shops are in general owner operated and mechanics their self and they and they people they hire are more competent and give a better value. Dealers hire people out of trade school with little skill or ability. They don't care, they are bodies they pay a small hourly rate and charge customers big (their business plan). Once a VW mechanic gets some experience they leave and go to different dealer (brand or franchise) that pays better. VW dealers must pay poorly. They have big turn over. Independent shops tend to be owner operated by experienced mechanics and they hire experienced mechanics. The OP made the mistake of going to the dealer to start with.

My point is valid, the dealer will try and cover up, blame you or something else, but never fess up if they screw up. That is why you can't let them investigate. I can't tell you how incompetent they can be, it's almost unbelievable. Just read these forums and get a clue. Even when faced with facts, dealers will DENY.... Yes that is what is wrong with America, you must sue sometimes to get people to do the right thing. If that is your plan, get taken advantage of, you are welcome to it. I am not talking about frivolous lawsuits.

Like I said......

Sometimes I have to bite my tongue about some of your extremist views on some topics. I guess I should have bit my tongue this time and let the OP be misinformed.

Donald

 

[turbobrick240]

Forget the lawyer. First you should hire a team of private investigators. Haha.

 

[Kanuk]

And that is what's wrong with America!
Even if the wrong grade oil was used, you would not have suffered turbo failure.
If your engine was overfilled with oil, it would not cause the turbo it fail.

FWIW I worked in the bearing industry for over 10 years as a vibration and tribology engineer. You're quite wrong.

Both too much and too little oil would both kill bearings very, very quickly. As could using the wrong oil. It's amazing how many people think that any oil will do just fine (edit: not that I see that much on this forum, just in general industry).

Any old oil, or 'just throw more grease/oil at it' only applies in things that turn very slowly. As in less than 120rpm slowly.

 

[oilhammer]

Yes but if that were the case, we'd have cars towed in our shop every day with blown up turbochargers. While turbo failure is quite common on the CR TDIs, it is rarely anything that can be traced to the oil. I've taken care of cars myself since they were new, on the dot every service interval with the correct oil and good filters, they are never run low, and they still had the turbo shaft snap in half suddenly without much of any warning just as the OP described.

 

[purtishansel]

This thread did end up drawing a crowd haha. It sounds like the consensus is that this is probably just a coincidence, and if it had been something wrong with the service I would've seen something happen much sooner. I've already contacted some local gurus, and I'm going to get it towed out today to have someone else take care of it.

I had a dream last night that I got a call from the dealer telling me the HPFP also failed -- can someone tell me to chill out and not ditch this car?

 

[gmcjetpilot]

I stand corrected the dealers never do anything wrong, and TURBOS blow up ALL THE TIME... 80K, 120K, they go and go with no notice.

Thank You....gee that is MUCH better.

 

[oilhammer]

I stand corrected the dealers never do anything wrong, and TURBOS blow up ALL THE TIME... 80K, 120K, they go and go with no notice.

See, you're getting it!

Had another one towed in today, and I am in the middle one replacing one (well, both actually) on an Allroad. No warnings of any kind in either case, and the shafts are just busted clean in half.

 

[xjay1337]

FWIW I worked in the bearing industry for over 10 years as a vibration and tribology engineer. You're quite wrong.

Both too much and too little oil would both kill bearings very, very quickly. As could using the wrong oil. It's amazing how many people think that any oil will do just fine (edit: not that I see that much on this forum, just in general industry).

Any old oil, or 'just throw more grease/oil at it' only applies in things that turn very slowly. As in less than 120rpm slowly.

The oil pickup provides full flow of oil to the turbocharger being the first exit off the pickup on the oil circuit.
The issue with over filling oil is that the oil pressure gets too high because there is no space in engine in effect.
You will damage your physical engine before the turbo.

 

[wrenchman30]

a turbocharge gets bypass oil and is considered a disposable unit as the engine get all and any oil first, main rod cam and then anything else

 

[frugality]

I got the 120K service at the dealership last week....

By the way, did that include a timing belt job? That's due at 120k, plus the first DPF ash loading check.

 

[dmarsingill]

By the way, did that include a timing belt job? That's due at 120k, plus the first DPF ash loading check.

130,000 miles

Donald

 

[seth1065]

my 2011 book says 120,000 not sure if it changed in some years.

130,000 miles

Donald

 

[dmarsingill]

my 2011 book says 120,000 not sure if it changed in some years.

Apparently they updated....even the local dealership has it at 130,000

Donald

 

[gmcjetpilot]

The issue with over filling oil is that the oil pressure gets too high because there is no space in engine in effect.
You will damage your physical engine before the turbo.

Not sure where you get your information. The engine does not make more
oil pressure if you overfill by any significant amount. We have to qualify
overfill. Just above the full mark, obviously no big deal, A litter or several
liters too much you will have other issues than oil pressure. Your crank
case (air pressure) may go up (due to volume of air in case). The oil
pump and pressure relief will regulate oil pressure. Yes I suppose the
oil pressure might go up slightly, but we are talking a PSI not significant.

A small overfill is not bad, using logic. Further is a lot of air inside the
crankcase area, small overfill little issue. With way too much oil you get
oil splash and foaming issues.

Even the owner manual says you may damage the exhaust system with
overfill. Why? My assumption and experience is oil splashing. Not only does
this rob horse power it causes more oil to be used. You do have less room
between moving parts and oil if overfill (a lot). You will get far more
splashing on the big end, crank and rods and cylinder walls. This causes
more oil to wet the cylinder and thus gets into combustion at excess rate,
therefore burned and into and out the exhaust system. Low ash oil or not,
oil will fill the DPF exhaust system (oil ash) faster by overfill. I doubt oil
level over max will cause turbo damage..

I think the VW has a wind-age tray that keeps splash off the big end, rods,
crank and cylinder skirt. However wind-age tray or not, waaaaaay too much
oil fill will cause the above issues, i.e., more oil to be burned. In old tech
engines it just meant you lost HP.

Back to your premiss overfill causes higher oil pressure. I could see a
higher "pressure head" with higher oil level, but that is going to be so small
verses the pressure of the pump, I just don't see it is a big factor, at least I
in a design like the CJAA CR 2.0L TDI.

 

[turbobrick240]

That sounds about right. Although I think more of the excess oil will be burned by being passed though the ccv than from splash.

 

[VChristian]

I realize this is an old thread, but recently a tech told me a similar story. Seems a tech who was a new hire ended up starting a car after changing the filter, but not adding the oil.

The engine survived, but the turbo went within a few hundred miles. The matter was discovered when the manager reviewed shop surveillance video. By then they had already changed out the turbo, but refunded the customer and gave him lifetime oil changes.

Good pitch for his employer.