Turbo choice???

k03, k04, k14, k24,.. best low/mid power for 1.6 idi diesel?. Please read below 1st

  • k03

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • k04

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • k14

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • k24

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Opal/Vauxhaul

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    1

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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Alot of reading, listening and learning to finding the most effective turbo for my little 1.6 idi diesel pickup. I think I've narrowed it down to several. I am open to other turbo selections also. I have questions on the 4 listed turbos in the title. (k03, k04, k14, k24). I'm hoping to get real world experience and driving characteristics from actual on the road turbo charged mk1 or similar vehicles

Manifolds used will probably be a BAE turbo intake and exhaust (3 bolt exhaust to turbo flange)

I have a 1983 VW PICKUP with 1.6 DIESEL and 5 speed. The motor is a fresh rebuilt that's balanced and 1 size overbored. New Giles superpump and injectors. 3" exhaust.

I would like to achieve better bottom to mid range Power. Good drivable non race type. I don't have fantasies about an unrealistic hp increase, but think 80 to 100 simple HP (non TDI) is achievable.

What are your thoughts and experiences on turbo type, A/R, trim etc to match the above criteria?







 

TDIMeister

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Diesel-specific K03. All turbos coming from originally gasoline engines (like the K03 used in the 1.8T) will have a higher turbine A/R ratio and spool very slowly.

I still say to sell your BAE kit as a whole set. The whole K03 and exhaust manifold from the AHU TDI (which has a KO3 OR GT15) will bolt up to the 1.6D head. There's also a stock 1.6D Intake manifold that has a long, straight runners and some decent plenum volume that's actually almost ideal. I'll post the part number when I get home. Where the air filter sits on the plenum is a perfect spot to weld a water to air intercooler.
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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Diesel-specific K03. All turbos coming from originally gasoline engines (like the K03 used in the 1.8T) will have a higher turbine A/R ratio and spool very slowly.

I still say to sell your BAE kit as a whole set. The whole K03 and exhaust manifold from the AHU TDI (which has a KO3 OR GT15) will bolt up to the 1.6D head. There's also a stock 1.6D Intake manifold that has a long, straight runners and some decent plenum volume that's actually almost ideal. I'll post the part number when I get home. Where the air filter sits on the plenum is a perfect spot to weld a water to air intercooler.
Thanks for the input! I measured the exhaust impellor on the BAE turbo and it seems to be much larger A/R than I want. The BAE turbo WILL be for sale. The 3 piece kit? MAYBE, depending...
question # 1) What would fair asking prices be?

Do you know where I can find the A/R & trim for the diesel spaciific k03? What kind of rpm range does the power run in? Does it use the 3 bolt exhaust flange?

I've been hearing the AHU exhaust manifold & related k03 works.
question # 2) Do the exhaust ports match up? (D or oval)
question # 3) Do you know the A/R & trim of the AHU specific k03?

I like your stock diesel intake/water cooled idea. My immediate questions would be;
question # 4) how could I realistically Seal (inclose) the pre cooler portion of this pressurized intake?
question # 5) would a water to air overtax my cooling system? What would the air temperature drop be relative to an air to air?
question # 6) Would air to air be more efficient?

Believe it or not this is really helpful information
 

TDIMeister

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It's been years since I've looked into this but IIRC the gasoline turbos will have turbine A/Rs from 0.64 and up. On the Garrett turbos the numbers are cast right on the housings. The Diesel turbos have lower A/Rs - I want to say 0.34 but could also be 0.43; the numbers can be found posted around TDIClub probably going back 20 years by searching on here - in any case lower than 0.64 for gasoline engines. VNTs are a different beast and have larger A/Rs of 0.64 like in gasser engines, but where this would make them spool very lazily in a Diesel with lower exhaust gas energy, the variable vanes make up the difference allowing them to spool very quickly down low yet but relatively free-flowing like an effectively high A/R turbine up high.

For a water to air IC, you wouldn't be using the engine coolant circuit but a completely separate circuit with its own electric pump and a radiator placed in front of the main coolant radiator (some OEM implementations do manage with a single circuit), but they have clever but complex ways to isolate a portion of the cooling system at temperatures just above ambient instead of 190*F at operating temperature.
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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So thru searches and informative post like this one. The compressor A/R of .48 or less is acceptable range for this size diesel... check.

I think I can now define the ever elusive definition of "trim". Correct me if I'm off or wrong "The relationship or differential between the inducer and exducer size". It can be a compressor or turbine wheel trim or overall difference between the two? In essence the trim is the science behind how or where the the turbo uses the exhaust energy. Into pushing the compressor wheel or air flow via the turbine. If I'm correct the VNT would have "variable trim"?

Any suggestions of a fair $ on the BAE 3 piece or just the turbo to a collector?
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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This seems to be a good fit? ebay. The correct 3 bolt flange. The A/R on compressor is right, does the high A/R on the turbine conflict?

 

TDIMeister

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The compressor A/R is far less important than the turbine, which is what I have been focusing about in my above post. This older post describes the impact of the different turbo specs and parameters including the A/R and trim: https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php?threads/turbo-technical-database.300010/#post-3190381

A low turbine A/R is desirable for a Diesel as already stated, so no, that ebay kit is not the way to go. The contemporary OEM engineering is very good, and I have a distinct preference for raiding the VW parts bin than to go for an aftermarket route as far as shopping for a turbo is concerned.
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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Great thread link. Not that I can fully understand the whole thing yet but I'm getting there. Your post seemed to deal with the compressor side A/R
1) When the compressor and turbine have an abnormal A/R spread, Is that referred to as a hybrid?

So my BAE turbo is grossly oversized @ 75mm compressor exducer (52mm inducer)



I'm not sure why the linked GT15 was wrong. Was it the large TURBINE A/R? The compressor A/R was certainly within suggested limits? (.35 A/R with 49mm exducer)??

2) Does my understanding of trim in the previous description make sense?

The below GT15 has a higher trim than was suggest (I think that's why you didn't qualify it?). Is the high trim because of the big A/R -comp to turbine- spread?

- COMPRESSOR: .35 A/R
- TURBINE: 76 TRIM .64 A/R
- COMPRESSOR WHEEL: 49/36.4 MM
- TURBINE WHEEL: 34.95 /41.35 MM

Does this look within specs?
  • Compressor Specs
  • 0.35 A/R
  • 1.75" Air Inlet
  • 1.5" Air Outlet
  • Wet Floating Bearings
  • Compressor Wheel
  • EXD: 49.00mm
  • IND: 36.40mm

  • Turbine Specs
  • EXD: 34.95mm
  • IND: 41.35mm
  • Turbine Housing Internal wastegated
  • Internal Wastegate set at 13 PSI
  • HP 100~225+WHP

Is it the relatively large turbine A/R that throws it outside of the parameter?
 
Last edited:

TDIMeister

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Great thread link. Not that I can fully understand the whole thing yet but I'm getting there. Your post seemed to deal with the compressor side A/R
1) When the compressor and turbine have an abnormal A/R spread, Is that referred to as a hybrid?
No, I've only referenced turbine A/R:
It's been years since I've looked into this but IIRC the gasoline turbos will have turbine A/Rs from 0.64 and up.

So my BAE turbo is grossly oversized @ 75mm compressor exducer (52mm inducer)
Typical of ancient 80s turbocharger technology. The impellers aren't just fan blades but extreme precision, high-tech devices with modern ones being the result of a ton of computer-aided design and engineering. If you go back even earlier in the history of turbocharger development, they were even more rudimentary by today's standards, but they were cutting edge at the time. The size of the impeller you measured can, in the most advanced impellers, easily support a pressure ratio of nearly 5:1 and deliver enough airflow for 400 HP or more. Modern turbos are pushing over 200 HP worth of airflow with compressor impellers with EXDUCERs the size of your BAE's INDUCER (52 mm)! A GT14 - an even smaller frame size than GT15 - is used in a VW application for a 184 HP Diesel out of the factory and it's not even the most state-of-the-art - your 1.6D will never get anywhere near 184 HP!

I'm not sure why the linked GT15 was wrong. Was it the large TURBINE A/R? The compressor A/R was certainly within suggested limits? (.35 A/R with 49mm exducer)??
First off, it's not a GT15 from Garrett. It's a Chinese copy and they don't even try to hide it - read the writing on the wastegate actuator. The price is tantalizingly attractive, but I advise you to stay away from this crap with a 10-foot pole.

2) Does my understanding of trim in the previous description make sense?
Trim is the ratio of the inducer and exducer diameters squared multiplied by 100. It primarily expresses the airflow capability of the device for a given exducer diameter. The physical thing that is happening is that a turbo starts to choke because the airflow at the inlet (inducer) reaches Mach 1, where it cannot flow anymore, like sucking throw a narrow straw. A bigger inducer (numerically higher trim) delays the onset of this choking so, all else being equal (particularly the headline exducer diameter), the higher the unit will flow.

This is not the same thing as the A/R ratio, which is a ratio of the housing volute's cross-sectional area at a given point divided by the radius from the centerline to the centroid of the cross-section (see picture below). The A/R mostly affects the developed pressure ratio from the available gas energy. A Diesel has lower exhaust gas enthalpy (energy), so it needs a lower A/R (i.e. higher) pressure ratio to spool the turbine. This higher pressure ratio also results in what we say is greater "restriction" at the limit, but this "restriction" is completely different from the trim.



The below GT15 has a higher trim than was suggest (I think that's why you didn't qualify it?). Is the high trim because of the big A/R -comp to turbine- spread?

- COMPRESSOR: .35 A/R
- TURBINE: 76 TRIM .64 A/R
- COMPRESSOR WHEEL: 49/36.4 MM
- TURBINE WHEEL: 34.95 /41.35 MM

Does this look within specs?
  • Compressor Specs
  • 0.35 A/R
  • 1.75" Air Inlet
  • 1.5" Air Outlet
  • Wet Floating Bearings
  • Compressor Wheel
  • EXD: 49.00mm
  • IND: 36.40mm

  • Turbine Specs
  • EXD: 34.95mm
  • IND: 41.35mm
  • Turbine Housing Internal wastegated
  • Internal Wastegate set at 13 PSI
  • HP 100~225+WHP

Is it the relatively large turbine A/R that throws it outside of the parameter?
Just the high turbine A/R, and the fact that it's garbage.
 
Last edited:

TDIMeister

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This might just be the ideal turbo for your application, and it also has a 3-bolt triangular flange: https://nerings.com/en/home/turboko...90-turbocharger_remanufactured_garrettnerings

A lot of people don't follow my approach. They just love to put physically much larger turbos thinking that bigger is always better, like they compensating for something...

But I only did my MSME on the subject of turbocharging - what do I know, eh? Lol.

Edit, if you're extremely cost sensitive, just find a good, used GT15 off a TDI along with the manifold from a salvage yard. You might even be able to find a rebuilt one with a warranty pretty cheap from ebay, not a Chinese clone. If you're a bit adventurous, you can even buy a brand new aftermarket billet compressor wheel to put to it starting from around $80.
 
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JELLOWSUBMARINE

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This might just be the ideal turbo for your application, and it also has a 3-bolt triangular flange: https://nerings.com/en/home/turboko...90-turbocharger_remanufactured_garrettnerings
Thanks, it's so interesting, the smaller advanced wheel and overall turbo size. One of my searches is to find a local turbo shop (local preferred but not required) I've been busy calling with no luck.

1) Any good U.S. connections? I'll scour eBay also.

AND the only experience I've had with air hose to furbo connections is my Passat. These must be Volvo specific turbine hose ends.

2) I would think readily available?
A lot of people don't follow my approach. They just love to put physically much larger turbos thinking that bigger is always better, like they compensating for something...
Not in my case. I get it about smaller is better especially for bottom/mid power in a 1.6d. It'll never be as zippy as my TDI JSW 6m but I don't expect that. It I could get 100 drivable simple HP, goal accomplished.

Edit, if you're extremely cost sensitive, just find a good, used GT15 off a TDI along with the manifold from a salvage yard. You might even be able to find a rebuilt one with a warranty pretty cheap from ebay, not a Chinese clone. If you're a bit adventurous, you can even buy a brand new aftermarket billet compressor wheel to put to it starting from around $80.
Cost sensitive... that I am. LOL This is a secondary/toy the wife loves and I play with. New motor, tire & rims, paint to name a few dollars spent. I'm fairly low on justifiable brownie points. YET I can persuade within reason. Fix it once and fix it right...reasonably?

3) What TDI had the GT15?
 

Mozambiquer

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I have a k03 from an ahu on my rabbit. It was what I had. I have it set up for 10psi max boost. Previously I had a Mitsubishi turbo on it from a 4d55t. It was a good bit bigger and did a lot better on the higher rpm than the open. I tuned one with a k14 (tuned as in adjusted the pump and timing and etc) it did a lot better than the k03, in my experience.
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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I have a k03 from an ahu on my rabbit. It was what I had. I have it set up for 10psi max boost. Previously. I tuned one with a k14 (tuned as in adjusted the pump and timing and etc) it did a lot better than the k03, in my experience.
THX
I believe I've narrowed it down to one of these in the appropriate a/r, trim and 3 bolt flange:

1} GT 15
2) k03
3) k14
4) Opal/veuxhall 24461825 ??? (see below link)

All O.E. quality is my main issue. Now buying a used VGC or reman, which will perform best? avalibilty to supporting parts like exhaust flange also important.


 
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JELLOWSUBMARINE

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Yet another question for TDImeister.
Here is a turbo with .48 A/R on BOTH the compressor AND turbine. If I'm not mistaken thats exactly what I'm looking for... BUT, the trim says 1.94... holy bat crap. Is that so? I really don't understand trim.

    • 100% brand new items, never used or installed.
    • 3-Bolt TD05-16G water & oil cooled turbocharger + internal wastegate.
    • Made by OEM approved manufacturers with materials that meets or exceeds strict OEM requirements.
    • Manufactured from high quality cast aluminum & cast iron for superior strength and durability.
    • Capable of boosting horsepower significantly up to ~85+ HP with stock injector & boost.
    • Included internal wastegate will be set around ~8 PSI (can also be modified to use external wastegate).
    • SPECIFICATIONS (Estimated):
      • Intake:
        • Inlet: 2.10" / 53.34mm
        • Outlet: 1.20" / 30.48mm
      • Compressor:
        • A/R: 0.48 A/R
        • Inducer: 1.89" / 48.15mm
        • Exducer: 2.67" / 67.82mm
      • Turbine:
        • Trim: 1.93" / 49mm <---- ???
        • A/R: 0.48 A/R
        • Inducer: 2.20" / 56.00mm
        • Exducer: 1.94" / 49.20mm
    • * Additional modifications or items required to complete installation. *
    • No installation guides are included, we highly recommend seeking professional installation.
  • Compatible/Replacement for:
    • 1998-2000 Subaru Impreza GC8 (European & Australian Models Only)
    • 2002-2007 Subaru Impreza WRX / STI (Turbocharged Models)
  • ** Designed to fit TD05 stock flange manifolds. **
    ** Fits turbocharged models with EJ20 / EJ25 engines only. **
 
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TDIMeister

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Way too big. The turbine is even bigger than a Garrett GTX2867R.
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

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What about the other 2 above?
The 2nd has .48 on both sides
 

TDIMeister

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What other two? I only saw your post for the Subaru TD05. That's the one's I said is way too big. A/R is but one of many things one has to consider.

The Opel/Vauxhaul one could work, but you're on your own to make sure you can have all the flanges and piping mate up. The turbine inlet flange, while having 3 bolts, is not a standard or VW OEM shape.

The low price and also the lack of OEM markings on the laser-marked boss suggest it's another copycat product (although the presence of a brand label is no guarantee of a legit original).
 
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JELLOWSUBMARINE

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What other two? I only saw your post for the Subaru TD05. That's the one's I said is way too big. A/R is but one of many things one has to consider.

The Opel/Vauxhaul one could work, but you're on your own to make sure you can have all the flanges and piping mate up. The turbine inlet flange, while having 3 bolts, is not a standard or VW OEM shape.

The low price and also the lack of OEM markings on the laser-marked boss suggest it's another copycat product (although the presence of a brand label is no guarantee of a legit original).
1) post #14, the second one down under the big Subaru GTX28 (not sure what I was thinking on the Subaru). I edited it off.


Both comp. and turbine have .48 a/r but real high trim??

this one:

  • SPECIFICATIONS (Estimated):
    • Intake:
      • Inlet: 2.10" / 53.34mm
      • Outlet: 1.20" / 30.48mm
    • Compressor:
      • A/R: 0.48 A/R
      • Inducer: 1.89" / 48.15mm
      • Exducer: 2.67" / 67.82mm
    • Turbine:
      • Trim: 1.93" / 49mm <---- ???
      • A/R: 0.48 A/R
      • Inducer: 2.20" / 56.00mm
      • Exducer: 1.94" / 49.20mm
2) Yeah it seemed correct except for that. But I'm hoping to find a unit as complete as possible. Its in the running though.
 

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I should go dig through my turbo stash and see if there's anything you'd be interested in...
 

adamss24

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The OP is really beating round the bush with this post, it’s been advised already on several instances on what might work well on his project, if he doesn’t consider using the suggestions then why the clutter on the thread ?
There is no magic to be found from any wastegate turbos on his particular project, the engine hasn’t been projected to withstand large amount of boost and it won’t make much sense looking for anything larger than what has been suggested already ! When you get your hands on the turbo you will notice that it’s tiny even though it’s been used on a 1.9 tdi engine! Forget the ko3, k14 or k24, your engine cannot drive these properly and they feel rubbish even on 2.5 tdi engines which has an extra cylinder !
I used a larger turbo on my mk2 golf fitted with mk3 ALE/AHH engine and even with the stock turbo wasn’t much of a wonder. You will be limited by the injector/fuel pump as without the compensating vacuum thingy on it it wouldn’t be able to provide fuel to burn the air the turbo may or may not provide !
 

adamss24

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I think your best bet would be to use the turbo setup from a mk2 gtd, it has a top mounted intercooler and the pump has already been set by factory to compensate for the boost ! These gtd engines can do over 100 Bhp with a little fettle of the pump governor screw !
 

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There are just too many to list....
Yep, the A2 GTD.... because they sold less than 1 of those here, LOL.... They didn't sell many of the "normal" 1.6L turbodiesels here, and hardly any are left. 68hp, though.
 

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The OP is really beating round the bush with this post, it’s been advised already on several instances on what might work well on his project, if he doesn’t consider using the suggestions then why the clutter on the thread ?
No need to get your panties in a wad.
The seasoned experiance and suggestions here have been a great part of my turbo learning journey. Unlike your area here in the states (west coast) there isnt the same access to qualified repair or even older VW diesels. Most posting parties read the thread to contribute, not take a morning dump.
 

adamss24

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Yep, the A2 GTD.... because they sold less than 1 of those here, LOL.... They didn't sell many of the "normal" 1.6L turbodiesels here, and hardly any are left. 68hp, though.
They are cheap as chips in Europe…plenty breaking !
 

adamss24

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No need to get your panties in a wad.
The seasoned experiance and suggestions here have been a great part of my turbo learning journey. Unlike your area here in the states (west coast) there isnt the same access to qualified repair or even older VW diesels. Most posting parties read the thread to contribute, not take a morning dump.
You have been advised several times on what turbos will/may work on your particular model, all you have to do is try and see if you’re happy with the outcome ! That’s the way to learn… get an mk3 tdi turbocharger fitted on the car, the AHU turbo is mounted the same way, however with the right manifold you can get it to fit although the exhaust will need a fettle. I have pictures of what I used on my mk2, it’s a 1.9 tdi but the turbo has a wastegate. It wasn’t meant to sound in a bad way but it seems nobody has done the particular swap you are about to do so you’re on fresh ground to be honest !
 

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TDI
audi a4 2.5 tdi 98 quatrro 6speed
I would buy a cheap 2nd hand turbo, mock it up on the engine, see if it fits well and make all adjustments then-if you’re happy with it- pull it off the car and rebuild it properly ! You cam get billet compressors to fit almost all known turbos, search kinugawa on eBay and send them an email- decent prices too !
 

JELLOWSUBMARINE

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Location
yes
TDI
2011 Jetta Sportwagen, 6M, red/tan, navi, pano, 83 5m diesel pickup, 82 p/u trailer,.04 5.5 TDI Passat wagon (gone), 80,81,82 diesel p/u (gone), 80,82 sportruck (gone), 59 passthru bus (long gone), 79&87 westy (gone), 57 baja bug (long gone), 73 914
Update
Yes we're on our way! Just picked up a good used k14 and manifold. It's on its way for turbo rebuilding, ceramic coating and exhaust port & polish. It's going to Jpop in Arkansas, they seem very professional, experienced and reasonably priced.

At this point I'll be using the BAE intake with the combo. The Rajay and exhaust manifold went to a collector who I'm sure will do good by it.

My thanks to the knowledgeable schooling along the way. I really think the k14 in a rebuilt, port, polished and ceramic coated will fill all my needs described above exactly.

Phase II... to purchase
Oil feed line and drain tube
TD pan or add drain fitting retro
intercooler & plumbing (find my td air cleaner I stashed years ago)
Vw oil filter sandwich style oil cooler

Feel free to offer up any of these you may have for sale and/or suggestions on other missed items I need

phase III
 
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