Turbo blew in Texas....stuck need help!

[AndyBees]

Man, you've lost me there! I set-up mine with all the OBD circuits connected to the port per the Bentley Manual. But, seems there are a few CAN circuits to the ECU not used in my set-up ......... was that way in the wiring harness I got with it.

 

[jimbote]

sitting here talking to my buddy Tom (amosdoodle) over mexican lunch and he said 230f was the magic iat number for limp mode when he had a similar intercooler setup in his westy vanagon with AHU

 

[AndyBees]

Jimbote, that is good info to know!

Earlier today, when I went into town, I noticed that my IC fan had kicked on as I was going up a 4% grade holding 65 MPH (in a 55 ). I checked the Temp with ScanGauge. It was slightly above 135f and ambient was about 72f.

I believe Beaulanier's system would benefit greatly if he could vent the hot air out the bottom. Or, better yet, do an under body IC similar to the one your friend did with his Westy! The Intake manifold has the opening pointing in the right direction...

 

[Beaulanier]

I believe Beaulanier's system would benefit greatly.........do an under body IC similar to the one your friend did with his Westy! The Intake manifold has the opening pointing in the right direction...

My plan for the future, exactly. Want that big intercooler mounted underneath and a BRM VNT17. Money, and time.

 

[Beaulanier]

Got a MityVac on my actuator.

First check: began movement at 6 in/hg, JUST hit stop screw at 20 in/hg.

Turned rod in 1/2 turn: began movement at 4 in/hg, JUST hit stop screw at 16.5 in/hg.

Which is more important, to begin at 4, or to hit the screw at 18? If I am getting it to move at 4 and its hitting at 16.5, should I then back out the stop screw a tad?

 

[jimbote]

most important thing is to scan for codes ... adjustment is ok as is... wasted effort otherwise....

 

[Beaulanier]

most important thing is to scan for codes ... adjustment is ok as is... wasted effort otherwise....

Ross Tech vcds mobile just arrived and plugged in....working.

Only code:

17958 charge pressure
p1550 - 35-10 control deviation - intermittent

So, what now?

 

[Beaulanier]

Now, Andy, Jim, since I didnt get any codes for IAT or MAP or MAF, does this mean that our intercooler issue hypothesis is not evident?

All the kit is near brand new, so not likely N75 etc.

I will now go out and do 3rd gear 011 data logging now, and report.

My tuner is helping me with that also.

Adjusted my actuator rod to begin travel just at 4 in/hg (which put it at the stop screw at 16.5).

We shall see!

 

[jimbote]

Ross Tech vcds mobile just arrived and plugged in....working.
Only code:
17958 charge pressure
p1550 - 35-10 control deviation - intermittent
So, what now?

yes, logs are in order .... also check the n75 vent line for obstruction ... good luck !

 

[Beaulanier]

UPDATE:

Went 1 mile for data log run. Could feel actuator adjustment was getting more boost. Hit the throttle in third gear, not full, not even starting a log run, and....

POP!

Input plastic housing side of my intercooler has clear popped off the metal intercooler housing!

I wonder if this was leaking/loose all along and this was causing a boost leak a high boost, causing the ecu to defuel on those climbs.

Not so sure though as the POP sound would suggest it broke free from a good seal. But who knows. Could be the actuator adjustment caused over boost. Never got to log.

Upon removing IC now, it isn't attached very securely inside the pillar as the bolt eyes on the IC in the back cannot be access to set a bracket. It's only held in place by the output hose, input hose, and the bolt to a bracket on the input side!

Really don't like how that was installed! I didn't do that part.

Will try to fix.

Geez! Good thing that happened a mile from my buddy's house!

 

[jimbote]

hope you can repair or find a replacement .... sometimes you can remove it, clean the surfaces and oring and reassemble with window urethane by recrimping the tank to the core

 

[Beaulanier]

I found the o ring on the road where it blew.

Now, it's a good 1-2in bigger in circumference and won't fit!!!!

Heat must have altered it and once sprung out, won't go back in.

This is a nightmare!!

Can I use some silicone in a tube gasket to seal it? Habe opened the metal crimp jaws successfully.

 

[Beaulanier]

 

[AndyBees]

Wow! There was a lot of pressure to pop that IC end off. I doubt you know what the boost pressure was at that point!

Suggestion: Clean the seal and area where it is supposed fit. Then, put the seal in place, cut out the excess length so it will fit tight end-to-end. Next, use some sealer at the point the two ends meet. The Reinzosil brand sealant used on the Oil Pan would be the best choice. Also, let it cure over night before starting the engine.

 

[rooney77]

Holy crap! I've never heard of that happening. That's some serious boost.

 

[Beaulanier]

Ok, I fixed it. cut the oring, electrical taped the peices, and re crimp/clamped it into place.

Holding pressure.

TONS more power. No more codes. No more limp mode.

Think that intercooler endcap was leaking for a while causing that.


Now, did three data log runs block 011. In old school diesel lingo, you dont want to get ahead of the turbo, as it were. Hammering the throttle from down low at 1500rpm gets ahead of the turbo. boost doesnt hit as hard. But thats what Malone's site asks me to do, so I did it.

Of note, when I do 3rd, 4th, or even 5th gear roll on's, feeling it out, letting the turbo lead, then following w throttle, it really moves. Hit 2450 mbar in 4th and 5th that way.

So, my three data log runs in 3rd gear:

FIRST:

Group A: '011 Group B:
RPM Absolute Pres. Absolute Pres. Duty Cycle
TIME TIME
STAMP /min mbar mbar % STAMP
0.03 1617 1234.2 1264.8 41
0.34 1638 1234.2 1275 41.4
0.68 1659 1244.4 1285.2 42.6
1.04 1722 1479 1305.6 39
1.39 1785 2080.8 1417.8 24.7
1.75 1869 2162.4 1642.2 24.7
2.09 1995 2172.6 1938 56.2
2.45 2163 2172.6 2305.2 69.7
2.81 2310 2172.6 2488.8 76.9
3.16 2457 2172.6 2060.4 61.4
3.52 2625 2172.6 1866.6 53.4
3.87 2709 1621.8 1815.6 77.7
4.22 2814 2091 1570.8 46.6
4.58 2919 2172.6 1846.2 53.8
4.96 3066 2172.6 2111.4 64.1
5.35 3192 2172.6 2152.2 63.4
5.74 3318 2172.6 2029.8 58.2
6.12 3465 2172.6 1958.4 55
6.52 3570 2172.6 1897.2 52.6
6.92 3696 2172.6 1897.2 49.8
7.31 3780 2172.6 1897.2 49
7.69 3885 2172.6 1897.2 46.6
8.06 3969 2172.6 1907.4 48.2
8.42 4032 2172.6 1887 49.8
8.77 4116 2131.8 1876.8 50.2

SECOND:

Group A: '011
RPM Absolute Pres. Absolute Pres. Duty Cycle
TIME
STAMP /min mbar mbar %
0.02 1428 1122 1050.6 33.5
0.34 1428 1122 1050.6 33.5
0.69 1428 1142.4 1060.8 33.5
1.05 1449 1224 1071 29.1
1.4 1491 1540.2 1111.8 28.7
1.77 1575 1866.6 1203.6 27.5
2.12 1659 1958.4 1315.8 25.9
2.48 1743 2070.6 1448.4 24.7
2.82 1848 2152.2 1621.8 32.3
3.2 1974 2172.6 1927.8 55.8
3.58 2163 2172.6 2284.8 70.9
3.97 2352 2172.6 2356.2 68.9
4.36 2499 2172.6 1938 56.2
4.77 2667 2172.6 1876.8 55
5.15 2835 2172.6 1938 57.8
5.55 3003 2172.6 1958.4 57.8
5.94 3150 2172.6 1948.2 58.2
6.31 3297 2172.6 1948.2 56.6
6.67 3423 2172.6 1907.4 54.6
7.03 3549 2172.6 1887 52.2
7.37 3675 2172.6 1856.4 49
7.74 3822 2172.6 1897.2 50.6
8.09 3864 2172.6 1887 47
8.44 3465 1234.2 1734 39.8


THIRD:

Group A: '011
RPM Absolute Pres. Absolute Pres. Duty Cycle
TIME
STAMP /min mbar mbar %
0.02 1554 1173 1060.8 29.9
0.34 1554 1173 1081.2 31.1
0.7 1575 1183.2 1101.6 31.9
1.05 1617 1264.8 1111.8 32.7
1.41 1680 1764.6 1193.4 29.1
1.76 1764 2060.4 1295.4 28.7
2.11 1869 2162.4 1468.8 24.7
2.47 1995 2172.6 1744.2 40.6
2.82 2142 2172.6 2111.4 64.1
3.17 2310 2172.6 2437.8 80.1
3.53 2499 2172.6 2070.6 59
3.88 2646 2172.6 1897.2 56.6
4.24 2793 2172.6 1897.2 57
4.58 2961 2172.6 1917.6 56.6
4.95 3087 2172.6 1938 57.8
5.32 3234 2172.6 1927.8 56.6
5.71 3381 2172.6 1907.4 55
6.1 3528 2172.6 1887 53.4
6.49 3654 2172.6 1876.8 49.8
6.89 3780 2172.6 1897.2 51
7.28 3885 2172.6 1897.2 48.6
7.67 3990 2172.6 1876.8 49
8.06 4095 2131.8 1856.4 49.8
8.43 4179 2091 1825.8 49.8
8.79 4263 2050.2 1785 50.2
9.14 4263 1142.4 1621.8 49.8
9.5 4179 1183.2 1295.4 51
9.85 4116 1234.2 1193.4 49.8

 

[jimbote]

n75 duty cycle looks good, boost is spiking a tiny bit to around 22 psi but seems mostly to be a bit under specified by a couple hundred millibar ....

 

[Beaulanier]

n75 duty cycle looks good, boost is spiking a tiny bit to around 22 psi but seems mostly to be a bit under specified by a couple hundred millibar ....

"a bit under specified" means I need more tweaking of my Malone tune, or more tweaking of my actuator?

 

[JFettig]

I just checked out your logs, they look similar to before, you are spiking a bit. I suspect the vanes are just the slightest bit sticky. If you adjust the actuator to 5in-hg from 4, you might get rid of the spike and have higher sustained boost(up to requested) but it will be laggier.

My suggestion - finish your trip, don't peg it so hard so often to stay out of that spike and enjoy the van, when you get home or somewhere safe, make the actuator adjustment.

BTW, you can log group 007 to measure your intake temperatures if you're worried.

I'd first get that intercooler replaced before it blows again and leaves you stranded.

 

[Beaulanier]

For the record, Jon did a great job w my tune and has been very helpful in this process.

Jon, so the logs are similar to before with the spiking. But we have a different turbo (last one was bunk from the start, this one isn't), and although the actuator is the same, it has been adjusted with this set of logs to initiate at 4 inHg, where as before it was 6 inHg.

These vanes are not sticky at all. I oven cleaner-ed the hell out of it before it went on, and those vanes and actuator tab move like silk now. That's not it.

And if the previous logs showed the same spike as now, with the actuator set to 6 inHg before and set to 4 inHg for these current logs, how would setting it to the middle at 5 inHg help?

I mean, if it was spiking at 6, and spiking at 4, gotta be something else, right? I just don't understand how more actuator adjustment is going to assuage the spiking. Help me understand.

So what is the commonality that is causing the spiking?

Intercooler is fixed better than before, as I went to town with a hammer and punch on those steel crimp teeth. It seems in there really tightly. I also fixed the attachement that was causing some wiggle, which had gotten that end cap loose.

I certainly need a new one, but I hate to buy a new (same inefficient) one, when I really need a whole different set up with a big all-aluminum FMIC (underneath like amosdoodle's van)....which will get done when I do the GTB1749VB. The entire existing intercooler set up is a bad design. fixing that now, and I am not going to have money to finish my trip!

On this trip, I try to go gently, but up steep, long, unrelenting grades at altitude, there's nothing for it but hold the throttle or not get up.

10-4 on that 007 IAT monitoring.

 

[Beaulanier]

The above logs were taken with the actuator rod turned in just a 1/2 a turn, initiating at 4 inHg.

Turned it back today to where it was, (stock, 1/2 a turn back out), initiating at 4.5-5inHg, and did a couple runs.

Its still spiking around 2300-2450mbar, BUT its really laggy! So much better before, great off the line and around town low end pick up and grunt, with it turned in 1/2 a turn.

Now it is noticeably laggier and less punch.

But the logs show spikes anyway. Vanes are clean.

If its spiking both ways, why?

and,

If its spiking both ways, why not have it turned in 1/2 turn and have less lag?

Is 2400mBar too much? (atm is @1000mBar, so thats @20 psi)

First run:

RPM Absolute Pres. Absolute Pres. Duty Cycle
TIME
STAMP /min mbar mbar %
0.02 1533 1101.6 1050.6 33.1
0.53 1533 1101.6 1050.6 33.1
1.07 1533 1203.6 1050.6 33.9
1.45 1575 1795.2 1091.4 35.5
1.85 1659 1968.6 1193.4 25.9
2.25 1743 2070.6 1315.8 24.7
2.65 1869 2152.2 1489.2 31.1
3.25 2100 2172.6 1999.2 61
3.64 2268 2162.4 2325.6 75.7
4.03 2457 2162.4 2091 58.6
4.4 2625 2172.6 1846.2 53
4.76 2772 2172.6 1836 53.4
5.12 2919 2172.6 1897.2 57.4
5.67 3150 2162.4 1948.2 57.8
6.22 3360 2172.6 1907.4 54.2
6.58 3465 2172.6 1887 52.6
7.12 3633 2172.6 1866.6 48.2
7.48 3738 2172.6 1856.4 46.2
8.03 3906 2162.4 1876.8 47.8
8.39 3969 2162.4 1856.4 48.6
8.94 4095 2131.8 1795.2 49.8
9.3 4095 1244.4 1764.6 72.9
9.84 3024 1203.6 1264.8 39.4
10.2 2730 1203.6 1173 37.1
10.78 2751 1203.6 1122 37.1
11.38 2667 1203.6 1111.8 37.1
11.76 2625 1203.6 1111.8 37.1
12.17 2562 1213.8 1101.6 37.1

Second run:

RPM Absolute Pres. Absolute Pres. Duty Cycle
TIME
STAMP /min mbar mbar %
0.03 1596 1234.2 1193.4 35.1
0.52 1638 1234.2 1224 37.1
0.88 1701 1397.4 1244.4 37.5
1.42 1827 2131.8 1468.8 24.7
1.78 1953 2162.4 1713.6 38.6
2.32 2184 2172.6 2213.4 66.5
2.69 2352 2172.6 2448 75.7
3.05 2520 2172.6 1999.2 56.6
3.44 2688 2172.6 1825.8 51.4
4.03 2919 2172.6 1887 56.2
4.42 3087 2172.6 1927.8 55.8
5.04 3318 2172.6 1917.6 54.2
5.41 3465 2162.4 1887 52.2
5.82 3591 2172.6 1856.4 48.2
6.2 3696 2162.4 1856.4 47.4
6.58 3801 2162.4 1866.6 45
7.13 3948 2162.4 1876.8 48.2
7.67 3780 1285.2 1774.8 45.4
8.03 3213 1224 1366.8 39.8
8.39 2625 1203.6 1234.2 37.9
8.94 2688 1203.6 1132.2 37.5

 

[GTiTDi]

whoever did this swap should be blacklisted

 

[Beaulanier]

whoever did this swap should be blacklisted

To be fair, the whole idea and process of swapping a TDi into an old VW Vanagon is a work in progress. Certainly not standardized, and bugs not all worked out. Everyone has a different way of doing it.

That said, the guy who did the swap has been a stand up fella. He tries to keep it simple and re use much of the stock Vanagon parts so he can reproduce swaps en mass in the UK and keep the costs down for average Brits to get their crappy old T3 lumps out and get in a nice TDi.

He re uses JX engine mounts and manifolds, and uses the simple Golf side mount IC. Both these systems just do not work in my opinion and need custom mounts, proper higher mounted turbo and modern manifold, and custom, larger IC mounted as Jimbote has suggested.

I did not know what I was doing at all before this process, being just a basic shade tree mechanic, but now I certainly have learned in a trial by fire. I will be changing a LOT of the set up for sure.

The motor was built well, and to be fair, most of the systems, but even the fella who did the swap is learning what works and what does not, as all of us are, and unfortunately I have had a lot of guinea pig in process problems as it were.

 

[Beaulanier]

Heading on to Bishop CA to climb.

Looking at the two data logs from stock rod length and 1/2 turn in on actuator, they both spike near the same rpm and same mBAR levels. Yet, the stock lags and shows much lower sustained boost.

Given that, with stock actuator position, seems I would have more of a tendency to goose the throttle to get needed power and end up over boosting more often. 1/2 turn out gets me more consistent I think.

So I put it back to 1/2 turn in. 4 inHg initiation.

 

[Beaulanier]

UPDATE:

Drove to Bishop CA with vcds mobile on my iphone the whole way; no more flying blind.

Warm/hot weather, coolant staying @80' degrees and IAT @70 degrees (C) , boost at @1400mBAR (@900-1000mBAR
atmosphere, on the flat @65mph cruising.

Up any grade at all sustained and IAT staying in mid-80's C, and when it gets steep IAT hitting 93'! Once it hits 90'sC, ecu starts to de-fuel and restrict power. No limp mode. It's exactly what i was feeling in Utah.

Even with IAT in the high 70's with boost sustained @ 2000mBAR, ecu will occasionally back off power.

IC doesn't leak. Nor do vac lines that I can tell.

Those are HIGH IAT Numbers are they not?

This IC set up is totally ineffective, if this is the problem.

Turbo leaking zero oil and not sticking.

Thoughts?

 

[JFettig]

quite hot! A similarly modded jetta/golf runs 10-20C over ambient. Same car with 17/22, proper fueling and stock IC can see up to 90c(I've seen it).

 

[Beaulanier]

quite hot! A similarly modded jetta/golf runs 10-20C over ambient. Same car with 17/22, proper fueling and stock IC can see up to 90c(I've seen it).

Didn't quite understand your meaning Jon.

Your saying a similarly modded (to my setup) Golf runs 10-20 above ambient (which is a LOT lower than 80C!)? Why's my setup so hot then?

17/22, what's that?

Didn't get the second sentence.

Could you clarify please?

 

[jimbote]

pretty hot man .... that little 1.9 needs as much cool air as it can get while it's pushing that brick through a wall of wind.... feel free to come by and have a look at my "amosdoodle" intercooler setup when you make it back east .... van will prob be on the lift for a few more weeks

 

[Beaulanier]

pretty hot man .... that little 1.9 needs as much cool air as it can get while it's pushing that brick through a wall of wind.... feel free to come by and have a look at my "amosdoodle" intercooler setup when you make it back east .... van will prob be on the lift for a few more weeks

Jim i fully intent to take you up on that. Wanna see for sure!

 

[JFettig]

17/22= hybrid turbo - not very efficient, plus its much more power than that little intercooler can handle.
Just giving you an example of what it takes to get those temps.

You're likely not getting good flow over the intercooler, and/or your air filter is sucking in hot air - many possibilities.