Turbo blew in Texas....stuck need help!

[AndyBees]

Wow! It looks like the shaft Journal on the Turbine end was taking a beating. And, the blades look to have been scraping the housing. Of course, the last 200,000 rpms could have left Turbine blades looking like that.

However, I suspect the wear on the shaft Journal, and I'm sure the bushing (bearing) is even worse, lead to the failure. That point of failure is where the shaft is the smallest and the hottest during operation. The metal seal is right there too, thus the loss of oil...

Considering long before you left NC, oil was flowing out the exhaust, the entire Turbo seems suspect to me....... I cannot imagine oil drainage had anything to do with the failure, nor the suction set-up!

 

[jimbote]

Nice Jim, I see the turbo clears those stock jx motor mounts. Is that AAZ manifold flipping the turbo topside like a BRM?

yes, the stock AAZ mani holds the turbo up near the intake.... everything clears nicely.... I'm with Andy on your turbo failure ... that thing was doomed from the start...

 

[GTiTDi]

a little of what i worked on today ...

custom drainback line for a gt2052 mounted to an AAZ manifold ... more to come in a seperate thread

I knew that looked familiar

 

[Beaulanier]

Wow! It looks like the shaft Journal on the Turbine end was taking a beating. And, the blades look to have been scraping the housing. Of course, the last 200,000 rpms could have left Turbine blades looking like that.

However, I suspect the wear on the shaft Journal, and I'm sure the bushing (bearing) is even worse, lead to the failure. That point of failure is where the shaft is the smallest and the hottest during operation. The metal seal is right there too, thus the loss of oil...

Considering long before you left NC, oil was flowing out the exhaust, the entire Turbo seems suspect to me....... I cannot imagine oil drainage had anything to do with the failure, nor the suction set-up!

Well said Andy. Likely a bum turbo from the get-go. Hope this used one that gets here today is better.

 

[Beaulanier]

yes, the stock AAZ mani holds the turbo up near the intake.... everything clears nicely.... I'm with Andy on your turbo failure ... that thing was doomed from the start...

Jim, AGAIN, you have me thinking

You run an AAZ motor in that Bus, right? Stock JX motor mounts. Any reason I can't use that same stock AAZ manifold on my AFN motor, to mount whatever big turbo I want, and clear my stock JX mounts?

Any reason using AAZ mani over a BRM mani is any better or worse?

You know if the BRM mani will clear my stock JX mounts the same as that AAZ? BRM would flow better, right?

 

[jimbote]

brm mani may flow better and the vnt will certainly have less lag the the gt2052... turbo position is about the same although the brm turbo reverses the inlet/exhaust putting exhaust outlet to the front

 

[nate0031]

Yea, if you use the BRM you'd have to make some funky piping like I did for my swap. One of the reasons I did it though is it sets high and required no mods to clear the mount bracket. I'm using AWM mounts in an A6 though, so the engine isn't leaned over as far.

 

[Beaulanier]

Yea, if you use the BRM you'd have to make some funky piping like I did for my swap. One of the reasons I did it though is it sets high and required no mods to clear the mount bracket. I'm using AWM mounts in an A6 though, so the engine isn't leaned over as far.

Everything about a Vanagon TDi swap is funky anyway. Par for the course

I will have to repipe everything anyway.

Jim can I get a VNT17 to mount to a BRM mani that does NOT reverse the exhaust? Looks tight in that bay to get the exhaust to work otherwise.

I am already using a Golf MK4 sidemount intercooler stuffed up in the pocket behind the wheel well with plenty of air venting down the chute from the motor ventilation design in the Vanagon. Lots of bends and pipes there, so having all that plus exhaust would be difficult.

 

[nate0031]

The exhaust housing is integral to the manifold, so you have to cut and weld it if you can. Try and get a standard flange put on.

 

[AndyBees]

Did the blown Turbo have a Braided Oil Feed Pipe or the OE Hard Pipe?

The following pics are why I ask.

............

So, are all Braided Oil Feed Pipes created equal? Or, does the smaller inside diameter of the Braided Oil Feed Pipe sufficient to provide adequate oil volume.

It would be interesting to know the number of Turbo failures that had the Braided Pipe on them. I've had the Hard Oil Feed Pipe on my Vanagon TDI off and on at least a dozen times ..... does not leak oil!

So, I've been scratching my head whether it is a wise move to make the switch....

 

[Beaulanier]

Andy,

Mine has a braided line and banjo. Almost everyone seems to use that. Dunno if something so "done" would cause turbo failure. Seems like if it did, it would'nt be so prevalent.

That said, mine was putting oil all over the place, out both ends, intake and exhaust, so that would suggest it was being fed plenty of oil.

 

[jimbote]

Everything about a Vanagon TDi swap is funky anyway. Par for the course
I will have to repipe everything anyway.
Jim can I get a VNT17 to mount to a BRM mani that does NOT reverse the exhaust? Looks tight in that bay to get the exhaust to work otherwise.
I am already using a Golf MK4 sidemount intercooler stuffed up in the pocket behind the wheel well with plenty of air venting down the chute from the motor ventilation design in the Vanagon. Lots of bends and pipes there, so having all that plus exhaust would be difficult.

you can get a gt1749va which is the passat pd130 turbo ... mount it via an adapter to a TD manifold and the intake exhaust won't need to be reversed .... as for the braided line i wouldn't worry to much ... thousands of turbos running around with the same size line with zero oil related issues

 

[Beaulanier]

you can get a gt1749va which is the passat pd130 turbo ... mount it via an adapter to a TD manifold and the intake exhaust won't need to be reversed .... as for the braided line i wouldn't worry to much ... thousands of turbos running around with the same size line with zero oil related issues

Well, I definitely want to do a GTB1749VB at least. Want to upgrade.

I will likely do that BRM Darkside setup. I can deal with the routing issues.

 

[Beaulanier]

Well, got the turbo yesterday. Filled it with oven cleaner and got it real clean. Vanes moving easily. I reused my actuator from the blown turbo as it felt better/smoother.

Short test drive and all felt fine.

Today I drove 800 miles from Colorado Springs to Las Vegas.

Over the Rockies it was snow on the roads so took it real easy up to 55-60mph, but no problems and pulled like a train over 11,000ft, and ran I-70 up a grade in 5th @ 60mph.

Was VERY cold so dense air helped i think, altitude notwithstanding.

Thought all was well.

Over Utah things changed. No snow so driving 65mph up STEEP grades in warm air over 8000ft.

Started to go into limp mode on steep grade climbs. Sometimes coming off the throttle and backing off would reestablish boost power, sometimes I'd have to switch the key off to do that.

Also began to enter this limp mode on hard on-ramp accelerations.

Always happening in 4th and 5th, on somewhat hard pulls / steep grades.

Down at 2500ft in Nevada, still going into limp mode if i accelerate too hard.

Is this over boost? Or under boost?
Seems quite laggy to get boost in low rpm and low gears too.

Not sure how it all adds up logically.

Is this simply the actuator needing adjustment?

If so, which way, rod longer or rod shorter?


Or is this turbo behaving differently w the latest tune?

I don't have VCDS out here unfortunately.

 

[jimbote]

limp mode can be caused by many different things ... buy a cheap pocket scanner and post the generic codes ... my blind guess though is it's overboosting and you may need to lengthen the actuator rod one turn at a time until it improves (just a guess)

 

[jimbote]

another possibility is the IAT's may be getting way too high, when this happens the ecm cuts fueling .... what kind of intercooler setup are you running ?

 

[Beaulanier]

limp mode can be caused by many different things ... buy a cheap pocket scanner and post the generic codes ... my blind guess though is it's overboosting and you may need to lengthen the actuator rod one turn at a time until it improves (just a guess)

I know I need vcds and a boost gauge. On the list ($$$ :/ )

If it's ovetboosting, does that mean the vanes are staying relatively too closed, or too open?

This means the lever too far away from the screw stop, or too far towards the screw stop?

So lengthening the actuator rod would mean it would open the vanes more, relatively, as that would cause the rod to push the lever more away from the screw stop (and the screw stop is full closed)....?

Help me understand the dynamics and why/how's and I can do this.

 

[Beaulanier]

another possibility is the IAT's may be getting way too high, when this happens the ecm cuts fueling .... what kind of intercooler setup are you running ?

Jim,

IAT is that "intake air temp"?

Is this a different sensor than the MAP?

I am using a stock, plastic 1997 golf MK3 side mount intercooler.

The trouble DIDNT happen in colorado in the COLD!

Got worse in warm air.

Problem not there before this replaced turbo...something to consider.

Tell me about replacing the IAT sensor, and if this is same as MAP.

I am trying to order ross tech mobile two day air.

 

[nate0031]

It would not surprise me if the actuator needs adjusting. That's typically part of the procedure when changing one, and a maladjusted one could present the symptoms you describe. Difficult to say without any codes or scans though.

 

[jimbote]

if it is an iat (intake air temp) issue then replacing the sensor won't help ... pillar mounted intercoolers don't work very good in vanagons ... the flow stagnates at speed and the cooler stops cooling effectively.... do you have any pics of your ic setup ?

 

[jimbote]

in the dark without codes man ... key word here is cheap !... stop at walmart go to the auto section and pick out the cheapest code reader you find, that will at least shed some light on the limp mode issue

 

[Beaulanier]

Jim, i bit the bullet and ordered a Ross tech wifi mobile vcds. That will let me read boost on my iPhone while driving, and do all other vagcom work. Be here friday. Im at a mates in Vegas so stable for a week or so.

Per your intercooler comments, yeah it's mounted in the pillar. I'll get pics later, going climbing today.

If this was an IAT and intercooler issue, why now and not before? Does IAT cause a fault code? Never gotten that one before.

It does happen at higher rpm and thus higher flow, but never happened w the last turbo during data logging drag runs.

 

[Beaulanier]

Ok, actuator is moving fully to the stop screw at idle, and seems fully open as far as the turbo vane lever will go with no vacuum (engine off). Will check it with a mityvac when i get one. Still need adjustment? Which way?

Jim my intercooler set up. What do you think?

If this is an IAT issue due to insufficient cooling, why now and not with my last turbo back home doing full throttle data logging runs?

Will check codes possibly sat when I get vagcom.

Ideas for now?

 

[jimbote]

still could be high iat's causing a cut in fuel... higher elevation causes the turbo to work harder at the edge of it's efficiency range for the same boost, this equates to more hot air out... the marginal intercooler also has a harder time shedding the heat due to lower air density at altitude.... this is just a theory and it may crash depending on your first scan

 

[Beaulanier]

still could be high iat's causing a cut in fuel... higher elevation causes the turbo to work harder at the edge of it's efficiency range for the same boost, this equates to more hot air out... the marginal intercooler also has a harder time shedding the heat due to lower air density at altitude.... this is just a theory and it may crash depending on your first scan

It's a very plausible and reasonable theory considering the experienced conditions.

When it happens, it is indeed more of a vague de fueling as if the ecu is trying to moderate something, until it gets really fed up and cuts power more abruptly.

The thing that bugs me is it happened again down at 2000' on a flat high-throttle onramp hwy entry, which doesn't fit the scenario.

Will this IAT throw a code?

What about my actuator adjustment?

 

[AndyBees]

Ever since I got back from the long road trip back last July-August, my set-up has been going into over boost, quite often. In my case, I know it has nothing to do with the actuator. The actuator moves freely with no hang-ups, etc. Also, it is original to the Turbo with factory adjustment.

I can watch the Boost Gauge go up to 22 - 24 PSI. The engine sound is strange and really doesn't seem to have any increased power under these circumstances. With the Stage 1 Tune, boost should not exceed 19 - 20 PSI.

Codes I'm getting are 0107 (relating to Manifold Absolute Pressure), 0110 (Air Intake Temp Sensor), 0118 (Engine Coolant Temp Sensor, fixed that one), 0226 (Throttle Position Sensor) and one other that I cannot remember. And, ironically all of them don't always show-up together. Unfortunately, I've not had an opportunity to address the issue.

So, no doubt both the 0107 and 0110 involve the MAP sensor on the InterCooler. This is most likely why I am getting an over-boost. I also believe the ECU is not telling the IP to deliver the required fuel for the boost level ... probably explains the lack of power relating to the amount of boost.

Mine will throw these codes regardless of temperatures ........ ambient, InterCooler, engine, etc. So, likely the MAP sensor has gone kaput. As for the 0226 relating to the accelerator, most likely a splice is corroded.

In your case, I agree with JimBote's assessment. Also, since you've been adjusting on the Actuator rod, it will take some "tweaking" to get it right. Of course, the tweaking should be done after installing a known good MAP sensor.

Also, you need to cover the IC so that engine bay hot air doesn't get to it. I assume you have a hole cut below the IC.

In the pic below, you can see I have the IC isolated from the engine bay with clear plexiglass:

Below, looking up from the bottom ............ shield on the bottom protects the IC from road debris coming off the tire.

Below, shows the puller fan installed.

The fan comes on at approximately 120f and off at about 90f. I have a light on the dash that comes on when the fan is running. The Scan Gauge provides the IAT reading.

I've seen temps up to 75 degrees above ambient. However, once out of the climb or acceleration, the temp drops rather fast.

 

[Beaulanier]

Andy,

"The actuator moves freely with no hang-ups, etc. Also, it is original to the Turbo with factory adjustment."

Mine too. Cleaned the vanes and exhaust housing on this replacement turbo w oven cleaner thoroughly, and the vanes/actuator move like butter full range.

1) Still, adjustment, which way would I try? What exact "tweaking" should i try?

2) And, considering my electronics are all new when installed (not ECU of course), why would I replace the MAP sensor now?

3) Is the Air Intake Temp Sensor a different unit than the Manifold Air Pressure sensor?

edit: per Oilhammer in another thread, "The TDIs instead rely totally on the one (IAP Sensor) integrated into the MAP sensor, which is post charge air cooling"

So the MAP has the IAT sensor in it.

4) Where are they each located?

I will have to go look around the bay tomorrow in the light, but I dont know what I have IAT and MAP wise. I didnt do any of the electronics install. Some ECU have the MAP and a vac hose, but I dont think I have that.

5) Is it even possible that I do not have a MAP?!?

6) What block number in VCDS can I see IAT and also MAP while running?

My intercooler has a fan on the top (cant see in the pic) that runs all the time the engine is on. There is no hole cut out in the bottom, but the cooler is held suspended up a bit so air can flow bottom and top. No block plate separating from engine bay air tho. Not the best set up. When i do the VNT17 and BRM manifold, I will do a better, bigger, more ideal location for the intercooler, like amosdoodle has perhaps.

I know these are a lot of questions, but your answers are REALLY helping me.

 

[AndyBees]

As Jimbote said, you are stabbing in the dark until you know what the codes are.

Yes, the IAT and MAP sensors are in the same unit mounted on the Inter Cooler. I can see in the pic a wire bundle going across the top of the IC. That may go to your fan. But, seems the senor may have been located on the pressure pipe down stream from the IC on the 1Z engines.......... cannot say for sure! Jimbote would know.

I would not be adjusting on the Actuator rod until you know the codes.

A "blower" fan set-up doesn't work as good as a puller. Unless you have a shield all around the fan (housing), there's going to be a considerable amount of blow-back off the IC unit.

 

[Beaulanier]

Andy, gotcha.

My MAP/IAT sensor is on my intercooler.

Intercooler isn't ideal I know. Cant change that now, but as it worked doing full throttle data logging runs without faulting, I wonder why now, as 2000' isn't that high.


I'll receive my Ross Tech wifi VCDS Mobile device fri or sat. Then we shall see.

Andy you've done gauges so pehaps you can help here:
All Ross tech hex cables have worked, all wifi obd dongles have not, even a Ross tech one. Strange. I have stock guages, so no ECU gauge communication. Always a fault code there. Ecu does have a CANBUS wire, going nowhere.

Now if it were a guage ecu com problem, why would the hex cable work and the wifi dongle not connect (it gets power just vcds on laptop says it won't connect)?

 

[Beaulanier]

I sent this email to Ross-Tech support:

I have used more than one Ross Tech Hex cables from friends. They all worked on my, and others' laptop just fine. I tried a Ross Tech wifi dongle once, and it powered up, but it would not communicate/work with the computer. VCDS could not connect. I also tried a cheap OBDII wifi dongle to try and use with both my windows AND iphone dashcommander software. Same problem, it would not connect. I used that same cheap dongle on a friends Vanagon/TDi conversion with an earlier year ECU, and his smartphone/dashcommander connected and communicated just fine with that dongle.

I do not have matching gauges with my ECU, and neither did the other Vanagon/TDi. My ECU does have a CanBus wire, but it is not hooked up as my gauges are stock Vanagon analogue. I do get a code in VCDS about the communication fault between gauges and ECU.

However we cannot figure out why your cable works and your wifi dongle will not.

I spoke with a tech at your end yesterday when I ordered the Wifi Mobile dongle. He said I may be able to go into VCDS and tell it to accept/run on a lower voltage in case my OBD power supply is low somehow. The idea was that with a cable, the computer has its own power source, but a wifi dongle depends on OBD for power.

How do I do that in VCDS?

If that is not the issue,can you please give me some troubleshooting ideas on this issue?

I ordered the Wifi Mobile and not a cable because my ecu is in the back and I need to be able to access my computer while driving and doing datalogging runs. Being able to use my iPhone with it is super.