Turbo blew in Texas....stuck need help!

[AndyBees]

Yeah, you need to reinstall the Actuator. The spring inside the diaphragm will push it back to full open position of the Vanes. However, as Jimbote, said, wire the lever so that the exhaust gas pressure doesn't cause the vanes to move, which I doubt... but to just be sure.

Below, you can see the Vanes in this Pic.

Below, is a pic of the Actuator arm all the way up............ this is the position you want it to be! That is the default position when the engine is not running. At idle, it is all the way down against the set screw.

 

[Beaulanier]

Jim, when actuator rod pushes up away from the actuator body, is that full open vanes or closed?

 

[Beaulanier]

Andy, I couldn't see you pics when i posted my last question to Jim.

In your pics, second/middle of the three, I can see the tips of the actual vanes in the groove looking down into the exhaust side hole.

IN THIS PIC, are those vanes full open or full closed? Do I want my vanes to look like those in that pic (where i can just see their tips?). Or do I want the vanes the other way (where I can't even see the vanes up in there)?

In that same second pic, with the vanes in that position where I can see their tips, is the actuator rod arm all the way up or all the way down?

 

[Beaulanier]

Ok, basically when i had it apart, the ring that is supposed to rotate freely, and the tabs which are the vanes that are in little notches in the rings that are supposed to wag back and fourth when the ring rotates, did not.

That is, they were stuck and sooty and grimy as hell from all that oil leakafe my turbo has been doing all along.

The ring didn't rotate and the tab didn't wag in their notches and so my vanes are not moving.

At this time, i could NOT see the ends/tips of the actual vanes inside the exhaust housing. So I was stuck in that position, whatever that is, open or closed, where I want to be or where I don't want to be.

Now, at that same time while i had it open, as was reinstalling everything and doing the bolt mod, the actuator tab was not in a groove and flopped freely.

I've never done any of this before and it's a helluva time to be learning it. So shoot me.

I thought the actuator was gonna be useless after this mod anyway so i let it be floppy and engage nothing. So neither wiring the actuator tab outside the turbo nor reinstalling the actuator will do anything now. It's all installed again, and im sitting in my van eating a hard earned dinner contemplating my drive tomorrow.

Question: do i have to do all this again, take it all apart again, and get that actuator tab in the groove on the ring?

All that stuff in there is stuck anyway. I was able to remove the ring and reinstall it easily, but the vanes didn't wag, didn't slide, didn't move.

As i said before, the position they are stuck in are such that I can't see the actual vane tips inside the housing as in Andy's second pic above.

Question: so am I stuck in the wrong or right position?

Question: given I'll replace the turbo after my drive to Vegas anyway, how much difference is it gonna make In my drive there?

QUESTION: must i take this whole thing out and apart AGAIN?

Am I stuck with the vanes in the wrong position and is this the reason i can only make 40-45mph?

Should I even be able to make 55 anyway?

This is a nightmare.

 

[AndyBees]

First off, with the Vanes set at the best angle, your engine is going to be a slug! It needs air and plenty of it. I'd almost be inclined to remove the air filter and install a piece of screen wire to keep out the big stuff................ it needs air.

With the Actuator up off the set screw, the Vanes will be in a position of least resistance to the exhaust gasses.

Actually, I would have thought the cartridge would not gone back together "completely" if the single operating arm was not aligned to go into it's slot.

So, you may have it aligned but the Vanes are binding due to soot, crud, and maybe a warped back plate ........... only takes a very slight amount of warping to cause binding.


Below, in this pic, the tips of the Vanes are not visible........... notice the slot where the arm of the outside lever fits (about 1:00 O'clock)... notice the blue mark.

Below, in this pic, the tips of the Vanes are visible.....notice where the slot for the arm of the outside lever is positioned.... it is moved more to the right, which is in the "up position" of the actuator arm. Keep in mind, that this is a little farther to the right than it can be adjusted. But, this would be ideal..... The Exhaust comes down past those vanes and goes out the other side.....

Below, in this pic, you can see the single arm (lever) on the exhaust side of the cartridge. That lever fits in the slot on the ring at the 1:00 O'clock position in the pics above...... Thus, you must have it aligned properly or the two halves would never have gone back together properly ........... cannot imagine it would! Also, you can see the stop dowel in the pic below..... look at the pic above and notice the hole where it fits. Now, you can see that the lever is farther to the right than physically possible ... Thus, the Vanes cannot be set at the angle as seen in the above pic.... but, as close to that as possible is going to be the ideal spot...

.....

Since it is getting so late, I'll stop here .............

I sure hope this helps!

....

 

[jimbote]

not sure what you have going on, but if your vanes are stuck closed then it could limit performance

 

[Beaulanier]

Well, it at least runs guys. Im gonna make a break for Colorado Springs where I have good friends w a garage. It's flat, two lane, prairie roads from Amarillo all the way there, and a third the distance to Vegas. My brit mechanic fella is going to FedEx me the same Sharan turbo used he has at the shop to the Co address.

Wish me luck all. Or more. I'll need it.

Thanks

 

[Abacus]

Good luck, watching with interest. I hope it works out.

 

[jimbote]

motor on and good luck ! when you get back to NC i'd like to check out your rig... mine is on the lift now getting a new turbo and intake along with plumbing the new intercooler

 

[nayr]

There is a guy in Monument whom parts out TDI's, I just picked up my ALH from him on Monday.. He might have a spare turbo.

I think it could be worth while to modify your setup to take a North American VNT15, if its not too dramatic of a change it might not cost much more than getting the turbo you need from Europe and if you'll be able to service/replace it here state-side.

Get that thing up to Colorado and you'll find alot more help and parts than you'll get in Texas or Vegas... Here a Turbo is a minimum requirement so we are very fond of european cars.

I'll be in the springs this weekend or next picking up a bellhousing for my westy, if you need a hand I can help.. got a vag-com, bentley and even a motor I'd hate to part with but could if your really hurting.

If it were me I'd pickup a VNT17 and have a shop modify your exhaust/boost pluming to make it work; then get a new tune when you finally make it back home.

 

[nayr]

Dont forget we got KermaTDI here in Colorado; im sure they got turbos sitting on the shelf..

now getting your naturally aspirated Vanagon up through the eisenhower tunnel (11200ft elevation with a mean climb) is not going to happen, unfortunately there deep in the mountains down i70.. You'll want to hitch a ride with a local, I might be able to help you with that.. Ive been keen on checking out Kerma's shop.

 

[AndyBees]

Based on his intended destiny and the itinerary posted by the OP this morning, I doubt he will be going through the Eisenhower Tunnel any time soon.

 

[mrrhtuner]

Interesting thread

 

[Beaulanier]

MADE IT! 35-45mph all the way from Amarillo to Colorado Springs!

Im too tired to even write so I'll post details tomorrow after a long sleep!

Got a tracking number from fedex w my turbo coming from UK.

Thanks all!

 

[nayr]

Welcome to Colorful Colorado.. glad you made it safely, its not as flat as you'd think it is just getting into CoSprings... I imagine it was a rough trip.

Now you know how I feel driving my 1975 AirCooled Bus around, 45mph is about the best I can hope for in most of Colorado (except downhill).. really teaches you to enjoy the scenery

Arent Cemi Truck drivers such nice guys when they get to pass you? its like you made there day, all of them give a big wave and a smile.. I take it they dont get to pass many people anymore

 

[waltzconmigo]

300 miles at that speed sounds brutal, good luck on the rest of the trip.

 

[nate0031]

Sounds like you'll appreciate that turbo like never before! lol.

 

[Beaulanier]

motor on and good luck ! when you get back to NC i'd like to check out your rig... mine is on the lift now getting a new turbo and intake along with plumbing the new intercooler

Jim, would love to come by and compare notes (that means lots of learning for me

When I roll back through NC.

The help was invaluable man. You and Andy especially. I had thought of rigging it NA but had no idea how or if it was possible until you told me the thru-bolt idea.

Really saved me.

PS I think my vanes WERE stuck shut on my drive to CO......seriously air-starved as Andy mentioned. More than any NA diesel Ive ever driven.

Think also my stage III Malone tune confused the computer.

Anyway, I made it to Colorado to my friends' house, and my turbo arrives here Friday.

 

[Beaulanier]

First off, with the Vanes set at the best angle, your engine is going to be a slug! It needs air and plenty of it. I'd almost be inclined to remove the air filter and install a piece of screen wire to keep out the big stuff................ it needs air.

With the Actuator up off the set screw, the Vanes will be in a position of least resistance to the exhaust gasses.

Actually, I would have thought the cartridge would not gone back together "completely" if the single operating arm was not aligned to go into it's slot.

So, you may have it aligned but the Vanes are binding due to soot, crud, and maybe a warped back plate ........... only takes a very slight amount of warping to cause binding.


Below, in this pic, the tips of the Vanes are not visible........... notice the slot where the arm of the outside lever fits (about 1:00 O'clock)... notice the blue mark.

Below, in this pic, the tips of the Vanes are visible.....notice where the slot for the arm of the outside lever is positioned.... it is moved more to the right, which is in the "up position" of the actuator arm. Keep in mind, that this is a little farther to the right than it can be adjusted. But, this would be ideal..... The Exhaust comes down past those vanes and goes out the other side.....

Below, in this pic, you can see the single arm (lever) on the exhaust side of the cartridge. That lever fits in the slot on the ring at the 1:00 O'clock position in the pics above...... Thus, you must have it aligned properly or the two halves would never have gone back together properly ........... cannot imagine it would! Also, you can see the stop dowel in the pic below..... look at the pic above and notice the hole where it fits. Now, you can see that the lever is farther to the right than physically possible ... Thus, the Vanes cannot be set at the angle as seen in the above pic.... but, as close to that as possible is going to be the ideal spot...

.....

Since it is getting so late, I'll stop here .............

I sure hope this helps!

....

Any, helps so much, thanks!

I will apply this to cleaning up the used turbo when it arrives here Friday.

Million thanks man.

 

[AndyBees]

Always glad to help when someone is in a jam! .........

I was about to offer shipping you a used VNT 15 but you posted that the guy in the UK was sending you one.

 

[Beaulanier]

There is a guy in Monument whom parts out TDI's, I just picked up my ALH from him on Monday.. He might have a spare turbo.

I think it could be worth while to modify your setup to take a North American VNT15, if its not too dramatic of a change it might not cost much more than getting the turbo you need from Europe and if you'll be able to service/replace it here state-side.

Get that thing up to Colorado and you'll find alot more help and parts than you'll get in Texas or Vegas... Here a Turbo is a minimum requirement so we are very fond of european cars.

I'll be in the springs this weekend or next picking up a bellhousing for my westy, if you need a hand I can help.. got a vag-com, bentley and even a motor I'd hate to part with but could if your really hurting.

If it were me I'd pickup a VNT17 and have a shop modify your exhaust/boost pluming to make it work; then get a new tune when you finally make it back home.

Nayr, what's yer first name?

I lived in Denver for 4 years, now trying my best to figure a move back after 7 years abroad. Had a 12v 6bt Cummins Ram, I am a mountain lover and climber, so I know all about driving turbo diesels up here over every high pass in Colorado!

I miss Colorado immensely. And, the reason I drove up here is exactly the reason you stated: a lot more parts and help up here than TX or NV.

It was my first time back in 7 years rolling in to the Springs on CO94 in my air starved BUS!

If you are in the Springs this weekend, I will indeed be working on it Sat and maybe Sunday, and your VAGCOM cable would be a real help clearing codes and checking all is well. And, your adivse-expertise welcome too.

I have a tracking number for friday arrival for my turbo. UK fella sent me a used one from a VW sharan with is exactly whats on there. Rig was bought and built in EU/UK so some parts are not sourceable here.

The VNT15/17 issue is a big headache for me. When I built the rig, I wanted a VNT17 but at the time didnt know much about VW diesel (just Cummins) and what was put on there was this Sharan VNT15.

I have another thread about those woes. Essentially, the vanagon stock JX manifold and steel adapter plates were used along with the stock JX diesel motor mounts. Big problem in my book bc this has the turbo sit so low that the turbo drain is level with the sump return where it drains. I don't know if this was a bad new/rebuilt turbo from the get go, but the seals leaked, the motor lost oil, and oil seeped out of my tailpipe and intercooler too, from the first day. The slightest restriction in turbo gravity drain causes this.

Leakdown test the day before I left is 95%. Rings seated, motor still top notch. 7000mi on fresh build.

So, for the time being I put a scavenger pump on the drain just before I left on the trip, until I fix everything right. I think that sucked too much oil off the bearings and on a 1600mi straight drive at 2700rpm the compressor shaft snapped.

Basically, Jimbote and Andy are helping me with ideas. I have to either fabricate or buy expensive custom motor mounts to clear an alh/afn manifold to use a VNT17 clearance wise, or a BRM manifold to have the turbo up flipped. The latter is my choice as it will have the turbo higher and drain properly I hope. Amosdoodle has that setup I am told.

I will of course need to entirely re plumb everything, get a new intercooler set up, maybe new mounts too with the BRM, or definitely with an AFN manifold, and new exhaust. THAT is not doable on a road trip or financially feasible yet.

Turbo wise I like RyanP's BRM manifold/GT1749VB 200hp item.

So for now the used replacement of exactly what is on there is on the way. Easy.

My tune is Malone III done by Jon Fettig here on the forum. Got that dialed in last week. He will re tune when I get the new turbo set up.

Got DSSR high lift cam plates in my fresh VE pump, and matched .230 injectors.

Send me a PM and lets email. Love to meet you.

 

[Beaulanier]

Welcome to Colorful Colorado.. glad you made it safely, its not as flat as you'd think it is just getting into CoSprings... I imagine it was a rough trip.

Now you know how I feel driving my 1975 AirCooled Bus around, 45mph is about the best I can hope for in most of Colorado (except downhill).. really teaches you to enjoy the scenery

Arent Cemi Truck drivers such nice guys when they get to pass you? its like you made there day, all of them give a big wave and a smile.. I take it they dont get to pass many people anymore

I had actually driven that run from Co Sp to Amarillo before. Co94 is the only hilly stretch where you gain a couple thousand feet on a long slow grade. That was hell. barely doing 25mph on most of that.

And flat at 6200' on a NA diesel isnt FLAT!

I would no more drive an old original engined aircooled bus up in this state than eat nails. My lord.

As for the semi drivers, I saw em in the rear view mirror, and was over driving on the shoulder "lane" to let em by before they even had to brake.

 

[nayr]

Hi, my name is Ryan.. my handle is a simple palindrome
damn thats alot of work to retrofit, I saw andybee's setup and that drain sure does look to be questionable but he seems to have made it work for him... Could always plug that hole and have a new drain ran to the oil pan.. Agreed thats too much to pull off in the middle of a road trip, would be a complete unknown if you'd even make it home changing everything like that without proper forethought.
I'll see if I can swing down Saturday for a few hours and lend a hand, pm incoming

 

[Beaulanier]

Hi, my name is Ryan.. my handle is a simple palindrome
damn thats alot of work to retrofit, I saw andybee's setup and that drain sure does look to be questionable but he seems to have made it work for him... Could always plug that hole and have a new drain ran to the oil pan.. Agreed thats too much to pull off in the middle of a road trip, would be a complete unknown if you'd even make it home changing everything like that without proper forethought.
I'll see if I can swing down Saturday for a few hours and lend a hand, pm incoming

The drain IS ran to the oil pan! The turbo drain is level with the bottom of the oil pan!

Yes, the fella in the UK I built it with has been doing conversions with the stock JX diesel motor mounts and stock JX manifold, and uses adapters for manifold and exhaust to mount a Sharan VNT15, because its easier and cheaper. And I believe it doesn't work, as he is coming to think himself.

The JX manifold has the turbo moved back away for the motor mount. To use ALH or AFN manifold, you must fab mounts out of the way.

With the BRM set up, the turbo is flipped up, so the drain may be better. I don't know yet it if will clear my JX mounts of if I still have to fab mounts.

FAS out of Maine make BEAUTIFUL hydrailic mount/bars that clear everything. But like 900 dollars or so!

Hope to see you Sat.

Thanks

Beau

 

[AndyBees]

I highly recommend that you install a Turbo boost gauge sometime soon. Without it, you have no idea what's going on with the boost. Boost gauges are simple and cheap. Get one that shows at least 30 psi. I have the boost gauge that shows vacuum too.

I suspect constant over boost caused the shaft to snap. I doubt the scavenger pulled the oil through too fast. The oil pressure coming in from the other side provides adequate lube. Speaking of that, I recommend that you check oil pressure with a good gauge .......... just a temporary set-up at the engine for that purpose. The engine should have near 70 psi at idle and about 28 psi when fully warmed up.

Here is a pic of my boost gauge. The EGT is at 1020f in that pic. The coolant temp gauge has never worked correctly .... in the next pic, you can see that Scan Gauge was showing coolant temp at 193f ..

 

[Beaulanier]

I highly recommend that you install a Turbo boost gauge sometime soon. Without it, you have no idea what's going on with the boost. Boost gauges are simple and cheap. Get one that shows at least 30 psi. I have the boost gauge that shows vacuum too.

I suspect constant over boost caused the shaft to snap. I doubt the scavenger pulled the oil through too fast. The oil pressure coming in from the other side provides adequate lube. Speaking of that, I recommend that you check oil pressure with a good gauge .......... just a temporary set-up at the engine for that purpose. The engine should have near 70 psi at idle and about 28 psi when fully warmed up.

Here is a pic of my boost gauge. The EGT is at 1020f in that pic. The coolant temp gauge has never worked correctly .... in the next pic, you can see that Scan Gauge was showing coolant temp at 193f ..

Andy, I know gauges are critical and that is my next step before the big GTBTurbo journey. I was meaning to start asking you how you did your Passat gauges as that is what I want to do, then at the same time, get boost, egt, coolant temp/pressure, oil temp/pressure. With Passat gauges, the CAN communicates with the ECU properly and then the OBDII will work with a wifi dongle (now with the stock gauges that will not work). THis way I can put in two wifi/OBDII electronic gauges, one on each side of the passat gauges inside the stock shroud (seen that done), and those electronic gauges can show me up to six things EACH.

As for what happened:

I did several data logging runs and two chip progressions with Jon Fettig here on the forum the week before I lift. He set me up a Malone stage III. On the final chips and the final data run logs, boost was STILL a bit low and laggy. NOT over boost. He actually emailed me to think of adjusting the actuator rod to come in a little sooner for more boost, according to my 3rd and 4th gear full throttle data run logs files.

Now why did that shaft snap? Its a common failure. Mine was leaking oil out the intake and exhaust from new.

Did it snap as a matter of time?

Or did the scavenger suck it dry?

Seems an awful coincidence that I road tripped from Scotland to Romania and it didnt fail, but AS SOON AS i took a trip on the scav pump, it failed. Very suspect.

The scav pump DID clean things up. By amarillo, the turbo was not seeping oil anymore. That worked. Did it work too well?

 

[jimbote]

a little of what i worked on today ...

custom drainback line for a gt2052 mounted to an AAZ manifold ... more to come in a seperate thread

 

[AndyBees]

It is a puzzle, but I just cannot see how suction by the scavenger affected lube of the Turbo shaft and bearing. At 65 to 70 MPH, the engine oil pressure should be about 55 psi. Thus, the oil pressure at the Turbo would be no less and obviously was delivering a good amount of oil based on your comments in the other Thread. The oil cannot get to the other side (bottom) without going thru and around the bearing and shaft.

Theory: I'm thinking the Rebuilt Turbo (Impeller - shaft- Turbine) was out of balance. Being out of balance plays hell with the seals as well as the bearing (a brass bushing). As miles piled up, the Turbo shaft began to wallow the bearing more and more........ possibly letting the blades of the Turbine and/or Impeller begin to scrape the housing.. And, if there were a few boost spikes, eventually, snap went the shaft!

Did you save the guts out of the Turbo? I'd like to see the seals.

 

[Beaulanier]

Very interesting theory Andy. Indeed. Considering the pictures, what do you think? You can obviously see the two deep grooves that were being worn into the shaft just above the snap near the turbine. The blades of the impeller and turbine did not strike me as being damaged though I was not looking for that.

I would rather be able to keep the scavenger for now, as it did a good job of keeping it clean and drained.

 

[Beaulanier]

a little of what i worked on today ...

custom drainback line for a gt2052 mounted to an AAZ manifold ... more to come in a seperate thread

Nice Jim, I see the turbo clears those stock jx motor mounts. Is that AAZ manifold flipping the turbo topside like a BRM?