TURBO: 2012-2014 Passat turbo failures [discussion thread]

[LokiWolf]

Dude you need to drop this 5K mile oil change thing, it's getting old, especially when the company gives different standards and you have no actual proof. You probably bought into the old 3K oil change years back.

What he said! Not the oil change interval, if it was we would have ZERO failures before 5K, and that isn't true. Jetta TDI - 10K, Golf TDI - 10K, neither have turbo issues. Difference, oh yeah, that's right....THE TURBO!


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[oilhammer]

Dude you need to drop this 5K mile oil change thing, it's getting old, especially when the company gives different standards and you have no actual proof. You probably bought into the old 3K oil change years back.

Agreed.

 

[c-wagen]

I just heard TurboDieselPoint video... and it was a little alarming... (yeah right... a little...). I was thinking also on what changes the most between starting a car at -20F or at 40F. If we think the turbo metal will be heated to 1200F, the deltaT (change in temperature) is pretty much the same between both cases (1220F vs 1160F), so it should not be so bad from a metallurgical standpoint. However, the viscosity of the oil really changes with temperature (and -20F to 40F tem range can change viscosity a lot, I don't know exactly how much for our Passat's oil).

So, during warmup we have a fast revving turbo with some weird surging going on that is harder to lubricate because the oil is cold. The Canadian Passats have warmers, that will help keeping the oil warmer, and at lower viscosity. During warm months the oil viscosity is lower. This might explain less failures in Canada (still there are much less Canadian Passats, so the failure ratio maybe as high as the US Passat) and in warm weather.

So, if the warm oil mitigates somehow the turbo failures, warming the car before driving should help (at least to circulate/warm up the oil). Also, driving in 1st or 2nd gear for a while. Has anybody with a DSG transmission has checked if driving a DSG in manual mode at cold startup in 1st and 2nd does not trigger the Emissions warmup?). A car can be driven in 2nd only for a short distance (i.e. inside the subdivision) without causing grief to the rest of the world, and at a low speed (don't go beyond 2000 RPM, that is already where the turbo fully operates...). Still it looks like proper turbo lubrication helps.


You can chime and destroy this theory as much as you like. Again, the only way to testing is the "Last Car Standing" methodology, I have no hard data to support it.

PD: just as a reference: for oil viscosity changes explanation, found:

http://www.kewengineering.co.uk/Auto_oils/oil_viscosity_explained.htm

 

[Genesis]

The ECU on an unmodified car with active control of both fuel and turbo exhaust vane geometry should prohibit the turbocharger entering the range of operation where a compressor stall ("surge") is possible.

If it is allowing that to happen under any rational set of operating conditions IMHO that's a defect in the design and programming of the ECU.

 

[c-wagen]

Genesis, I might have used the wrong word (Surging). Do you have any comment on TurboDieselPoint video, or do you think there is not enough info there (I heard pulsations in it, I do not know if that is surging).

 

[JARED_LA]

c-wagen:
In response to your question concerning the DSG and manual mode, I have been experimenting the past 6 months using auto and manual modes.
When using auto on a cold start and the transmission shifts into 3rd gear the warmup cycle begins until the temp reaches approx. 130 deg F. When using maual, the warmup mode will not begin until 3rd gear is reached. I drove in 2nd gear this morning until the temp was approx. 130 deg and then proceeded to drive as normal and never saw the warmup cycle begin.

 

[c-wagen]

c-wagen:
In response to your question concerning the DSG and manual mode, I have been experimenting the past 6 months using auto and manual modes.
When using auto on a cold start and the transmission shifts into 3rd gear the warmup cycle begins until the temp reaches approx. 130 deg F. When using maual, the warmup mode will not begin until 3rd gear is reached. I drove in 2nd gear this morning until the temp was approx. 130 deg and then proceeded to drive as normal and never saw the warmup cycle begin.

Jared_LA: good! Thanks!. By the way, which temperature are you talking about? Coolant?

 

[JARED_LA]

Yes, coolant temp, sorry.

 

[Genesis]

Genesis, I might have used the wrong word (Surging). Do you have any comment on TurboDieselPoint video, or do you think there is not enough info there (I heard pulsations in it, I do not know if that is surging).

Not enough info, IMHO.

HOWEVER, a MAF/MAP log run when the turbo is exhibiting the suspect behavior should be able to be overlaid on the turbo manufacturer's operational map (they all produce and publish one) to see if it deviates out of the manufacturer's "safe" operating zone. That would be pretty close to definitive; if it's out-of-spec then whether or not that's the only cause it has a high probability of being a contributing one -- and is by definition (of the turbo manufacturer) abusive to the unit.

The high percentage of snapped shafts in these failures bothers me. What I haven't seen is any sort of systemic examination of the broken shafts; is there evidence of heat damage or oil starvation on the surfaces? If so then it gets more-complicated as the cause of that damage has to be found too (and I'd argue found first since there's no doubt that will result in failures where surge doesn't always do so.)

 

[TypeRod]

I'm a little late to the party of the warm up cycle process, what metrics are you guys monitoring to let you know if the warm up cycle is starting and ending?

 

[tdiatlast]

c-wagen:
In response to your question concerning the DSG and manual mode, I have been experimenting the past 6 months using auto and manual modes.
When using auto on a cold start and the transmission shifts into 3rd gear the warmup cycle begins until the temp reaches approx. 130 deg F. When using maual, the warmup mode will not begin until 3rd gear is reached. I drove in 2nd gear this morning until the temp was approx. 130 deg and then proceeded to drive as normal and never saw the warmup cycle begin.

I have seen the same numbers with my 2014. No blow-torch EGTs if I cruise the neighborhood in 2nd gear. If I shift up to 3rd, EGT spikes, I slip over to neutral, temp comes down almost instantaneously.

 

[Lightflyer1]

I haven't shifted to neutral but just letting off the acc. pedal seems to cancel it on mine. We are watching the exhaust gas temps. I monitor egt pre turbo and pre and post dpf.

 

[phlfly]

What he said! Not the oil change interval, if it was we would have ZERO failures before 5K, and that isn't true. Jetta TDI - 10K, Golf TDI - 10K, neither have turbo issues. Difference, oh yeah, that's right....THE TURBO!


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Or change the car. I don't complain about the turbo failure I did at first bu"t just to show it's the issue, when people screamed at me -"there is no problem so who is right now, guess 160 pages showed something, right? I think you were one of them? I went go ahead replace oil soon as I have seen turbo failed. I was even ban for that forum with another member who sold his car later, ( forgot his name but he had very loud mouth).
Found from archive funny to read it now tdilast ?http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5943235-Turbo-Failure

I don't have any proof behind oil intervals, but a lot oil analysis showed that oil is not very good shape after 10,000 miles.
I remember reading on turbodiesel forum that guy reduced his interval to 5,000 to 7,000 after few oil analysis.
As I stated before it's your car and you can do whenever but extra 100 bucks in year will not make difference in your budget but it can make difference on turbo life and other engine components.
Personally I didn't do oil analysis due the I will never go with long intervals on any car. I did short intervals on my Bmw and had not experienced with failed valve gasket even I sold it at 90,000 miles.

 

[Bobmws]

Not enough info, IMHO.

HOWEVER, a MAF/MAP log run when the turbo is exhibiting the suspect behavior should be able to be overlaid on the turbo manufacturer's operational map (they all produce and publish one) to see if it deviates out of the manufacturer's "safe" operating zone. That would be pretty close to definitive; if it's out-of-spec then whether or not that's the only cause it has a high probability of being a contributing one -- and is by definition (of the turbo manufacturer) abusive to the unit.

The high percentage of snapped shafts in these failures bothers me. What I haven't seen is any sort of systemic examination of the broken shafts; is there evidence of heat damage or oil starvation on the surfaces? If so then it gets more-complicated as the cause of that damage has to be found too (and I'd argue found first since there's no doubt that will result in failures where surge doesn't always do so.)

It's highly unlikely that VW will allow any broken turbos to be examined or analyzed by private or independent sources. I believe Oilhammer is the only independent to have a broken one in his hands.
It wil be interesting to see if next winter's temps are as severe and the 0020's fail at the same rate as the 005's or if there will be another updated part.

 

[detroit9k]

It's highly unlikely that VW will allow any broken turbos to be examined or analyzed by private or independent sources. I believe Oilhammer is the only independent to have a broken one in his hands.
It wil be interesting to see if next winter's temps are as severe and the 0020's fail at the same rate as the 005's or if there will be another updated part.

How could they stop? The failed turbos are private property. Sure, keeping the turbo may cause certain warranty rights to be revoked (I have no idea, not reading my warranty right now), but they can't stop you. Maybe a free lunch would cause the turbo to be "too damaged to merit remanufacture" or something like that.

In any case such analysis is quite expensive. All the questions raised in the last few posts are great, but they're expensive to answer. I hope someone answers them.

Can someone elaborate on what "normally" causes a turbo shaft to break? Is it torque on the shaft, or some other failure mode like a crack caused by a defect, and heat cycling? I haven't heard of any smeared bearings, but I have heard of impellers colliding with the housing. What I can't figure out is whether the shafts break, and then the impellers hit the housing, or if it's the other way around (that is, the thrust bearing fail). I know that there is a lot of axial stress on the shaft, but I don't know how much, and if these wacky regen calibrations make it much higher (leading to thrust bearing damage).

As for oil warm-up, that might make the shaft more brittle, but that really would affect the bearing more than anything, and like I said, I haven't heard (in my attempt to keep up this thread and do no other research) of those being smeared or otherwise failed.

 

[tdiatlast]

detroit9k: Bobmws is possibly referring to failed turbos being replaced under warranty. No warranted failed part is ever returned to the consumer.
Your second point is accurate. It would be very expensive to do a reliable analysis. I think we're all (naively?) hoping that VWoA is doing exactly that, in their quest to solve the riddle of turbo failure.

 

[tdiatlast]

Or change the car. I don't complain about the turbo failure I did at first bu"t just to show it's the issue, when people screamed at me -"there is no problem so who is right now, guess 160 pages showed something, right? I think you were one of them? I went go ahead replace oil soon as I have seen turbo failed. I was even ban for that forum with another member who sold his car later, ( forgot his name but he had very loud mouth).
Found from archive funny to read it now tdilast ?http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5943235-Turbo-Failure

I don't have any proof behind oil intervals, but a lot oil analysis showed that oil is not very good shape after 10,000 miles.
I remember reading on turbodiesel forum that guy reduced his interval to 5,000 to 7,000 after few oil analysis.
As I stated before it's your car and you can do whenever but extra 100 bucks in year will not make difference in your budget but it can make difference on turbo life and other engine components.
Personally I didn't do oil analysis due the I will never go with long intervals on any car. I did short intervals on my Bmw and had not experienced with failed valve gasket even I sold it at 90,000 miles.

Private message sent. I won't waste other respected members' time refuting all of your assertions.

 

[Cerisecons]

Just wondering from other Torque Pro users here, and scan gauge as well all the points / sensors you have monitoring on your setup, and if there are instructions to add more. I believe I currently am monitoring pre turbo temp and pre cat Temps now. Is adding additional or others better/available? With so many possible gauges and screens available, I'd like to set aside one screen to these alone. Thanks for your assistance and for providing such a wealth of knowledge, and a little humor as well.
I have a 13, se model TDI.

 

[Lightflyer1]

Pre-turbo and pre-dpf would probably be fine.

 

[kjclow]

detroit9k: Bobmws is possibly referring to failed turbos being replaced under warranty. No warranted failed part is ever returned to the consumer.
Your second point is accurate. It would be very expensive to do a reliable analysis. I think we're all (naively?) hoping that VWoA is doing exactly that, in their quest to solve the riddle of turbo failure.

I am sure that both VW and Borg-Warner are analyizing the failed turbos. Afterall, they have to ulitmately decide who is left covering the final costs of the replacements.

 

[phlfly]

For some members:
It's open forum and all should be taking as opinion since none of you a VW manufacture specialist. We here to have some fun off work or home congruity.
But this thread is reducals. I'm throwing some stuff to conversation to derail crazy ideas about warm up cycles and temps during that. It's simple system as any car. Many cars are using DPF and add blue systems. It's just weak link in the system for Passat.
As regular user you can do only : warm up, regular oil changes , use more thinker oil like w-40.
No matter what I will change oil every 5,000 to 7,000 miles.

 

[40X40]

For some members:
It's open forum and all should be taking as opinion since none of you a VW manufacture specialist. We here to have some fun off work or home congruity.
But this thread is reducals. I'm throwing some stuff to conversation to derail crazy ideas about warm up cycles and temps during that. It's simple system as any car. Many cars are using DPF and add blue systems. It's just weak link in the system for Passat.
As regular user you can do only : warm up, regular oil changes , use more thinker oil like w-40.
No matter what I will change oil every 5,000 to 7,000 miles.

Great idea, use more thinker.

Bill

 

[c-wagen]

Phlfly: amen! Do what you think is best, we can revisit it when your car turbo fails, or when your car run the 100k miles mark and a german engineer gets her/his wings. We will do whatever we think is the best. However, I like that you pointed that we users have few ways of action to avoid failure (we hope) until VW/BW figures out whats going on (bad batch,/bad design).
BTW if at 100k miles a german engineer get her/his wings, when a turbo fails at less than 1000 miles what happens? They become Orcs? Throlls? Any suggestion?

 

[Cerisecons]

As this is a family friendly site, I can't print any at this time

 

[JdC Machine]

Isn't there some sort of special break-in oil that's used in these engines for the first 10k miles?

If so, I would rule out oil being the cause as most of these turbos have failed well within the first 10k miles of their lives.

Hunted and pecked from a Galaxy S4A.

 

[kjclow]

Nope, no break in oil anymore. My 2000 Beetle had the break-in oil but neither of the new ones did. Not sure when they stopped using it.

 

[jrm]

40x40

 

[FormerOwner]

I can't til one of you builds your own turbo and slaps it on as if your ride was at the local county fair in the truck n tractor pull, rolling Clean Diesel Coal ! Now that would be of benefit to post here folks !

 

[Salsaman06]

... when a turbo fails at less than 1000 miles what happens? They become Orcs? Throlls? Any suggestion?

Ursula the octopus (from The Little Mermaid) steals their soul and turns them into shriveled up brown weeds with eyeballs at the bottom of the ocean.

 

[LokiWolf]

I can't til one of you builds your own turbo and slaps it on as if your ride was at the local county fair in the truck n tractor pull, rolling Clean Diesel Coal ! Now that would be of benefit to post here folks !

I have offered before to test things for you, you pay, I'll install it.