TURBO: 2012-2014 Passat turbo failures [discussion thread]

dieselfuel

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Moderator Note:
This thread is a merger of several other threads on a similar subject. They have been combined in order to keep all of the pertinent discussion in one convenient location instead of across several threads.

Please note that this is a DISCUSSION thread. To report a turbo failure, post in this thread: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=375789

UPDATES!

As of July, 2014, the turbocharger warranty for 2012 and 2013 Passats has been extended to 10 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first. Read the bulletin here: http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/3209/vwp-14-04_turbocharger_limited_warranty_extension_2012_-_2013.pdf

As of December, 2014, Volkswagen has issued a service action as follows. This action reprograms the computer and "softens" the warm-up strategy that VW has linked to turbo failures. Letters will be sent to vehicle owners starting in January, 2015 and this action will be done free-of-charge.







Thread Highlights:
  • TurboDieselPoint's video confirming turbocharger surging during the emissions warm-up routine. This "warm-up routine" blasts the turbocharger with high boost and extreme exhaust temperatures in 3rd gear and higher during the first minute or two. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyZfdEYtmzU
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Wondering if anyone with a 2012 Passat has had a blown turbo yet.

A friend called today and mentioned that at 3000 miles, his turbo blew on his drive home from work.

He purchased the car new and it now has 12k miles. He and his wife really like the car. They do alot of highway driving.

Anyhow, when the turbo blew, he has it towed to the dealer and they fixed it under warrenty. My friend stated that it would have cost $6k to fix (sounds a little high, even for a dealer, bwdik?).

Probably too early to tell, but wanted to hear if anyone else has had this problem with their '12 Passat.

(I know of the "issue" of the HPFP, but was suprised to hear of his turbo problem.)

df
 

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Driver_found

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Since they do lots of highway, I wonder if they possibly were shutting down without an ample cool down period?
 

dieselfuel

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I don't believe the TDI engine needs cool down. I know this has been discussed before in other forums.

Gassers may need to cool down, but not our diesels.

df
 

Scottie3000

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I dont know of any new factory turbo cars that dont have water cooling these days. My gti had a electric pump that circulated coolant to the turbo after shutdown for a few minutes. I assume these are the same, anyone know for sure?
 

VeeDubTDI

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It is always prudent to monitor EGTs before shut-down to make sure you're in a safe range. Stopping the engine immediately at a highway rest stop can be damaging, as well as shutting the engine down during an exhaust regen. As I've mentioned before, I recommend that all commonrail owners purchase a ScanGaugeII to monitor EGTs.

I won't shut ours down unless the EGTs are below 500F - preferably 400F, but sometimes I don't feel like waiting that long.
 

Rico567

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Turbos in passenger cars have had water cooling for some time. Yes, back in the day, with the oils of those days and no water cooling, there was a much greater chance of coking a turbo. Nowadays, in a car that's been manufactured in the last decace, and provided you're using an approved oil....not so much. We have owned a number of turbocharged SAABs, several (including the one we're driving at 130K) with high miles, and we've never had a turbo hiccup.
I think there tends to be a legacy aspect to many of these stories....and, although we don't own a VW -yet- I think the issues with the HPFP also are becoming a past issue.
 

VeeDubTDI

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Incorrect. There isn't a single TDI sold in the United States with a water cooled turbo.

My 2003 F-350 also does not have a water cooled turbo, for what it's worth.

Most gassers are water cooled, but most diesels are NOT.
 
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LokiWolf

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Most diesel turbos are oil cooled. Water would never work because of the extreme temps that diesel turbos run at. The exhaust gasses are much hotter in diesels, especially DPF equipped ones...


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VeeDubTDI

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Are you sure about that? I've always known diesel EGTs to be cooler than gas engines, hence why most gas turbos are water cooled and diesels are only oil cooled.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Unless there's something going on that I don't know about on the Passat, all TDIs have turbos that are air/oil cooled. Intercooling on the Passat is "water" (coolant) but it doesn't continue to circulate after shut down. And the coolant cools the charge air, not the turbo itself, at least not directly.

Rico567, what other cars have water-cooled turbos? I'm curious.
 

VeeDubTDI

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Right! Let's not confuse turbo cartridge cooling with charge air cooling. Two totally separate things. For the record, I don't think any of us in here were getting the two things confused - just making sure.
 

40X40

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Never heard of a TDI with a water cooled turbo.... But I read of something new to me nearly every day on this forum. It runs about 98% pure BS. LOL

Bill
 

TurboDieselPoint

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Unless there's something going on that I don't know about on the Passat, all TDIs have turbos that are air/oil cooled. Intercooling on the Passat is "water" (coolant) but it doesn't continue to circulate after shut down. And the coolant cools the charge air, not the turbo itself, at least not directly.

Rico567, what other cars have water-cooled turbos? I'm curious.
What the...are you saying the intercooler has COOLANT flowing through it?? Isn't coolant typically like 100+ degrees? Wouldn't that turn it into more of an "interwarmer"?

Sorry, I'm confused...:confused:
 

40X40

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VeeDubTDI

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Yes, the intercooler has COOLANT running through it. It is separate from the main engine cooling loop, so NO it does not heat the charge air to 200°F. See diagram below... front radiator is the intercooler radiator, the one behind it is the engine radiator.

The only purpose of the connection between the two systems is for filling and burping air.

 
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TomB

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The intercooler cools the air to form a denser charge of air into the chamber of the engine for better combustion.

Remember diesel, more air means more power from the injected quantity of fuel, so it is optimal to get the most and highest density air charge.

Compressing it at the turbo heats it up.
 

Softrockrenegade

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The water for an air / water IC is usually its own system and not the engine water . I'm not 100% on the passat IC coolant loop though .

Edit : veedub already posted the answer .
 
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VeeDubTDI

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As I have explained, the two systems are tied together for the purpose of filling and air burping - that's it. Once the coolant is in the IC loop, it is essentially its own self-contained system with its own radiator, electric pump and temperatures sensors.
 

LokiWolf

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Are you sure about that? I've always known diesel EGTs to be cooler than gas engines, hence why most gas turbos are water cooled and diesels are only oil cooled.
Nope, Gas combusts at a lower temp than diesel. Gas EGT's run about 700-1100. Diesel EGT's can get to 1600 on bursts. Factor in DPF regen and that temp is seen at the turbo regularly. Gassers don't intentionally get that hot like modern diesels do. Oil is used, because at that temp water would flash boil even under pressure.

-Loki


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ajanikula

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back to original question!

turbo shaft snapped on my passat around 1000 miles. VW rep called a month later to interview me about my driving style.
 

Knarrly Viking

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why turbos fail?

ajanikula, why would they ask you about your driving style? VW can't have seriously designed a car that can't take full boost because of spirited driving!!!

I'm wondering why high EGT's would cause damage to the turbo. Running at freeway speeds, not racetrack speeds, should not be running the turbo at really high rotational speeds. EGT's may be hot when you stop for a pit stop, but as soon as you shut the engine off, there is no more heat input and everything should be cooling down. The turbo will still be shedding some heat, slowly, to the oil coolant. Anyone that can elighten me?
 

Genesis

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It's not EGTs, it's center-housing temperature. The turbos are oil-cooled and if you come off a hard run and shut down immediately oil flow ceases and the nice 1,000F exhaust housing heat soaks into the center housing and can coke the residual oil. Don't do that, in short.

With this few miles, however, my money is on a defective turbo, perhaps one a bit out-of-balance, from the factory. It happens.
 

GoFaster

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What the...are you saying the intercooler has COOLANT flowing through it?? Isn't coolant typically like 100+ degrees? Wouldn't that turn it into more of an "interwarmer"?
Sorry, I'm confused...:confused:
On the Passat, the intercooler has its own coolant loop and small pump and its own radiator. It essentially uses the same overflow bottle, but the flow path between the intercooler's radiator and the dedicated pump and the intercooler itself operates at a much lower temperature (not much above ambient) compared to the engine's coolant loop.

But this is off topic to the main thread. Every VW 1.8T and 2.0TSI (gasoline engine) turbo has water cooling (from the engine's coolant loop) to the turbo's central cartridge, and this is very common for gasoline engine turbochargers. A lot of them even have a small electric pump that runs after the engine has been shut off, for a period of time, to ensure that the turbo cartridge doesn't boil over locally and then overheat and coke the oil that is now trapped inside (because the engine is not running).

The TDI turbochargers don't have that.

As for cool-down period ... I just drive mine like a normal car. Did the same with the previous one, and I sold that one at 462,000 km with the original turbo. The only time I paid any regards to cool-down period was while towing, which I do a lot, but even then, only if I come straight off the motorway into a rest stop and straight into a parking spot. Normally, the coasting down in the exit ramp and trickling around in the parking lot while finding a spot ought to be enough of a cool-down period and that's all it normally gets. Hasn't been an issue. Use the correct oil, though (synthetic).
 

Knarrly Viking

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Right. So, according to exxonmobil, 225C temp (437F) local metal temps can cause oil coking. http://www.exxonmobil.com/lubes/exxonmobil/emal/files/TTopic7_OilCoking2.pdf
My guess is that the center housing is somewhere in the 200F range, as the oil cooling it is around 190F. The metal between the exhaust temps and the oil has to warm by over 200F for increased likelihood of coking. The exhaust temps after shutdown are going to shed to any heat sink it can, but most of it is going to go to the coldest and largest heat sink, which I think is the air around the turbo.

If the oil in the turbo cokes, it probably messes with the heat tranfer from the turbo to the oil, and then the bearings get messed up to cause failure?

Still, I can't understand why engineers familiar with turbos would design it to see any temperatures close to the coking temp on shutdown of the car.
 

40X40

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It is always prudent to monitor EGTs before shut-down to make sure you're in a safe range. Stopping the engine immediately at a highway rest stop can be damaging, as well as shutting the engine down during an exhaust regen. As I've mentioned before, I recommend that all commonrail owners purchase a ScanGaugeII to monitor EGTs.

I won't shut ours down unless the EGTs are below 500F - preferably 400F, but sometimes I don't feel like waiting that long.
How long does it take to cool down? (How long do we need to idle the engine, worst case? and best case?)

Bill
 

VeeDubTDI

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Right. So, according to exxonmobil, 225C temp (437F) local metal temps can cause oil coking. http://www.exxonmobil.com/lubes/exxonmobil/emal/files/TTopic7_OilCoking2.pdf
My guess is that the center housing is somewhere in the 200F range, as the oil cooling it is around 190F. The metal between the exhaust temps and the oil has to warm by over 200F for increased likelihood of coking. The exhaust temps after shutdown are going to shed to any heat sink it can, but most of it is going to go to the coldest and largest heat sink, which I think is the air around the turbo.

If the oil in the turbo cokes, it probably messes with the heat tranfer from the turbo to the oil, and then the bearings get messed up to cause failure?

Still, I can't understand why engineers familiar with turbos would design it to see any temperatures close to the coking temp on shutdown of the car.
You're just pulling numbers out of nowhere. For starters, normal operating temperature in the Passat is about 210 degrees fahrenheit, oil temperature will be within +/- 10 degrees of that.
 

VeeDubTDI

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How long does it take to cool down? (How long do we need to idle the engine, worst case? and best case?)
Bill
I will get some videos for you on my way up to Langhorne tomorrow.

Cool-down to 450F after a regen can take upwards of 5 minutes of idling. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQznjhZgteA&feature=player_detailpage#t=292s

Cool-down from 1100F to 200F with no fuel injected @ 2000 RPMs can take several miles (2 or 3?) down a mountain.

Pulling off the highway? 30 to 60 seconds is probably good, depending on cruising speed, load and how long you coasted in gear (as opposed to jamming on the brakes). Coasting in gear drops temperatures very quickly, as is to be expected.

Cruising EGTs are 500 - 800F (various conditions).
 
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40X40

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VeeDub,

Thanks for the info. That is much longer than I expected. If we get one of these, I will train myself/ establish a shutdown routine that will take this into account.

Bill
 
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