TURBO: 2012-2014 Passat turbo failures [discussion thread]

[TDIpstick]

HUGE! awesome advice flyboybob, i must have misinterpreted something i read in a forum to come to the conclusion TCS was the culprit... anyway, thank you!

i removed MAP visually looked pristine... cleaned with brake cleaner, no improvement, and found 2 new codes [below]... still only get 2.5k RPM... Ordered the new MAP, will be here in a few days, do you think that could clear the 2 new codes as well? also had a flashing glow plug light and some white smokey exhaust.... not repeatable nor did a see a code related to glow plug... weird all this stuff would fail at once? or is this just the normal process to get to the root cause? my 02 jetta [ALH] never had a catastrophic failure like this and all the break fix stuff i did was usually pinpointed by the diagnostics.... just curious

5169 - Manifold Pressure / Boost Sensor (G31)
P0238 00 [168] - Signal too High
MIL ON - Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 143322 km
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 00:00:00

Engine speed: 0.00 /min
Normed load value: 0.0 %
Vehicle speed: 0 km/h
Coolant temperature: 20 °C
Intake air temperature: -40 °C
Ambient air pressure: 1010 mbar
Voltage terminal 30: 12.380 V
Unlearning counter according OBD: 40
Charge air pressure: actual value: 3000 hPa
Engine status: COENG_READY
Engine status-Test_Program_Co Eng st COMPU VERB UBYTE: 1

5282 - Intake Air Temp. Sensor (G42)
P0113 00 [168] - Signal too High
MIL ON - Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 143322 km
Date: 2017.12.23
Time: 08:57:43

Engine speed: 0.00 /min
Normed load value: 0.0 %
Vehicle speed: 0 km/h
Coolant temperature: 20 °C
Intake air temperature: -40 °C
Ambient air pressure: 1010 mbar
Voltage terminal 30: 12.380 V
Unlearning counter according OBD: 40
Exh.gas temp.sen 4: 19.9 °C
Specified value of low pressure exhaust flap: 100.00 %
Actual value of low pressure exhaust flap: 106.62 %
Low-pressure exhaust flap: offset closed: 0.59 %
Low-pressure exhaust flap: status-Bit 0: 0
Low-pressure exhaust flap: status-Bit 16: 8
Low-pressure exhaust flap: status-Bit 24: 55
Low-pressure exhaust flap: status-Bit 8: 2
Exhaust flap: actual value: 4540.4 mV

 

[flyboybob]

HUGE! awesome advice flyboybob, i must have misinterpreted something i read in a forum to come to the conclusion TCS was the culprit... anyway, thank you!
i removed MAP visually looked pristine... cleaned with brake cleaner, no improvement, and found 2 new codes [below]... still only get 2.5k RPM... Ordered the new MAP, will be here in a few days, do you think that could clear the 2 new codes as well? also had a flashing glow plug light and some white smokey exhaust.... not repeatable nor did a see a code related to glow plug... weird all this stuff would fail at once? or is this just the normal process to get to the root cause? my 02 jetta [ALH] never had a catastrophic failure like this and all the break fix stuff i did was usually pinpointed by the diagnostics.... just curious
5169 - Manifold Pressure / Boost Sensor (G31)
P0238 00 [168] - Signal too High
MIL ON - Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
..........
5282 - Intake Air Temp. Sensor (G42)
P0113 00 [168] - Signal too High
MIL ON - Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
..........

OK.....so...
The good news is that the MAP sensor i referenced above does both MAP and IAT so those two codes are likely related. The interesting and/or tough part is figuring out if the if the issue is with the sensor or the connector or is in fact a wiring problem (or some combination of the three).
........
I don't know too much bout this sensor but i'd guess that the temp part is some sort of resistance temperature device (resistance varies w temp....typically inversely w temp).
.......
I have replaced this sensor twice in 160,000 miles....both times for being fouled by oil coming from the failing oil seals on the compressor side of my turbocharger. The fact that yours looked clean is a good sign you don't have that problem.
.......
I found that the female terminals in the harness connector plug for this sensor are easily damaged (happened to me just by removing and installing the plug).
.......
I broke open my damaged sensor and removed one of the male terminal pins. I used the pin to do a "pin drag test" on the harness plug. In three of the four locations the pin fell out of the socket indicating that the terminals were sprung or damaged. The dealer wanted $800 to fix this (rewire connector & replace sensor). Did it myself with replacement parts n tools i got from Digikey for about $40 (plus $60 sensor).
.........
I recommend you check the harness plug connector (pin drag test). Also, checking the wiring is pretty straight forward with an ohmmeter since all four wires go directly to pins on the ECU connector.
.........
Hope that helps....good luck!
bob.

.....
PS: BTW....this car has a rev limiter...it should never run above 2.5k rpm in park or neutral (at least mine doesn't)...even when faults are clear and all is right w your tdi.
....
PPS: in my case, i first had an MIL w the failed sensor. A flashing glowplug light then showed up once i had (inadvertently) damaged the harness connector plug.

 

[TDIpstick]

replaced the MAP, but still the same 2 codes from the original post... not sure what to do next??? still getting the intermittent flashing glow plug light but not codes associated with it.

2 Faults Found:
5171 - Boost Pressure Regulation
P0299 00 [101] - Control Range Not Reached
Not Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 143322 km
Date: 2017.12.27
Time: 21:02:31

Engine speed: 2451.00 /min
Normed load value: 99.6 %
Vehicle speed: 20 km/h
Coolant temperature: 25 °C
Intake air temperature: 22 °C
Ambient air pressure: 1010 mbar
Voltage terminal 30: 14.340 V
Unlearning counter according OBD: 40
Charge air pressure specified value: 2000 hPa
Charge air pressure: actual value: 1051 hPa
Air mass: actual value (mg/stroke): 446.1 mg/stroke
EGR Solen.val.: actual value: 99.38 %
Throttle valve adapter: actual value: 99.48 %
Charge Pressure Actuator: acknowledgment: 90.94 %
Mean injection quantity: 27.07 mg/stroke

12896 - Boost Pressure Regulation
P0299 00 [101] - Control Range Not Reached
Not Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 143322 km
Date: 2017.12.27
Time: 21:02:31

Engine speed: 2451.00 /min
Normed load value: 99.6 %
Vehicle speed: 20 km/h
Coolant temperature: 25 °C
Intake air temperature: 22 °C
Ambient air pressure: 1010 mbar
Voltage terminal 30: 14.340 V
Unlearning counter according OBD: 40
Charge air pressure specified value: 2000 hPa
Charge air pressure: actual value: 1051 hPa
Air mass: actual value (mg/stroke): 446.1 mg/stroke
EGR Solen.val.: actual value: 99.38 %
Throttle valve adapter: actual value: 99.45 %
Charge Pressure Actuator: acknowledgment: 91.03 %
Mean injection quantity: 27.07 mg/stroke

Readiness: 0 0 0 0 1

 

[SilverGhost]

Well, I see full load (99.6%) at about 2500 RPM, but zero boost. I would double check to confirm no boost is ever being made or made boost then bleed off. BTW - full load on a cold engine?

If its not making boost I would start down the diag path for no boost - make sure vacuum is getting to turbo actuator, verify actuator is moving, verify turbo is still able to spin freely.

Quick check for blown turbo - most turbos will spit oil when they fail, just take out front HO2 sensor and see if it is wet.

I'm sure there are plenty of reasons why ECM would not request boost, but most should give you other DTCs. These DTCs sound more like its trying to get boost and no joy.

Jason

 

[Pentonvb05]

Im on my 2nd turbo failure. First was at 88k 33 months ago. Ow this one is at 156k. Limp mode, flashing glow plug and high pithched whine that increases as the rpms increase. Does anyone have any luck with getting Volkswagen to help with the repair of a second failure?

 

[TDIpstick]

this is a new (or at least reman) turbo... dealer installed, i would like to believe it's something else, this is the 4th iteration to get this running after it's breakdown....

1. Battery -warranty
2. MAF $500 (dealer)
3. Turbo - warranty (dealer)
4. EGR + TCS + MAP $300 (me)

going to do some more troubleshooting tomorrow, but i'm afraid it could be a faulty turbo or turbo install...

how do i check this? "double check to confirm no boost is ever being made or made boost then bleed off."

 

[flyboybob]

pm sent.

bob.

 

[TDIpstick]

checking for leaks or obvious prolblems like loose or disconnected wiring harness i discovered the passenger side axle CV boot is shot, grease and oil all over the place... I had noticed an oil mess in the skid plate, but i just assumed this was collateral damage from the turbo blowing up and being replaced. i wasn't too worried about it, focused on getting the EGR and pressure sensor replaced and getting back up to full speed.....

But now, i'm curious, does replacing the turbo require removal and replacement of the passenger side axle?

It looks like it probably could... And if so, could it have been damaged in the process? I originally assumed the clicking / thumping was something that happened when it was towed to the dealer, but now i'm not so sure and think it may have occurred during the turbo removal / replacement.... Any thoughts or experiences with something like this?

ps. still no power....

 

[SilverGhost]

See is MVB still shows 003 or 011. If you have the "IDExxxx" system then you have to search for boost/charge pressure request vs actual (not those actual words). Might also be helpful if you find the MVB for turbo actuator lift sensor.

Set VCDS up to read MVB and do a short test drive, or just load it sitting still for a moment and watch boost.

Jason

PS: Removing the passenger axle makes removing the DPF and turbo MUUUUUUCH easier. Other words 99.99999% positive the axle came off to do the turbo.

 

[Pentonvb05]

Just got confirmation from the dealership that my 2nd turbo is toast. Lots of play on the intake shaft and oil in the boost pipe. I plan on removing the turbo and replacing it myself. Any advice on removal of the old one? I downloaded the service manuals but there is always someone out there with actual expierence.

 

[TDIpstick]

ran the test, the request changes throughout the test drive and the actual stays constant, so what does that mean? What is still broken? What should be fixed?

 

[Pentonvb05]

I got off the phone with the service manager that was talking to the customer service center. He said that since the dieselgate thing if you had the emissions mod done on your car that certain engine parts are under a 48000 mile warranty. Not sure what is included in that, but the turbo definitely is. Not sure if this affects any of you, but if it does it’s something you may want to look more into. I guess they aren’t sure what the modification will do to the engine internals.

 

[SilverGhost]

If request is changing and actual is not, then next would be vacuum gauge to verify turbo actuator is good (no ruptures/ holds vacuum) and that vacuum signal is reaching turbo actuator. After that would be physical inspection of turbo to see if it broke.

NOTE: see Pentonvb05 post above.

Jason

 

[TDIpstick]

checked everything i could no luck, succumbed to bringing it back to dealer my claim being that the replacement turbo was either bad or installed improperly and should be covered under warranty...

I'm now told the DPF needs to be replaced $2,900 the diagnosis seems legit, but a few questions....

Wouldn't the DPF be covered under the turbo warranty, if the turbo failure / parts clogged the DPF?

yes according to VWP-14-04 & Technical Bulletin 2036110 should have been replaced, and was replaced according to my previous work order....

Could cleaning the DPF possibly buy me a few months so i can find a replacement car?


probalby not DPF, grasping at straws...

Think this is a basket case

 

[jrm]

yes everything you mentioned is covered at no cost and commonly replaced after a turbo failure, make sure they clean the metal out of the intercooler

 

[TDIpstick]

i escalated the claim to customer care, VW claims that because there was no oil ingress into the DPF that it is does not require replacement, and hence not covered under the turbo warranty...

only inexpensive remedy i can think of now is to do a chemical clean of the DPF, has anyone done this with any level of success? or is this more of a PM item to extend the life of the DPF?

seems like a plausible diagnosis, if the DPF failure causes excessive back-pressure on the Turbo causing the Turbo to fail?
what would the symptoms of DPF fail be? sudden catastrophic? or a gradual degradation of performance and fuel economy? or something else?

 

[jrm]

courious how many miles were on the oil when the turbo blew, seems most blow between 7k and 10k on the oil, maybe 4qt isn't enough for these engines

 

[TDIpstick]

~ 9k on the oil, allegedly not a drop in th DPF

 

[jrm]

id have them show you the clean DPF, but worst case it will burn out of it. what brand of oil? I switched away from the 5w30 to 5w40 T6 when this thread started and my turbo (knock on wood) is ok so far @108K I change the oil every 5k and filter every 10k Dodge sent every dealer in the country a TSB to dump the 0w30 euro oil out of every Ecodiesel on the lot and replace it with Shell T6 as well, and since the eco diesel has a DPF and SCR as well, I feel the entire 507 requirement may be a little silly, I mean if your car eats 8oz or less oil over 10k I doubt the DPF will notice T6 vs 507 oil, and if it does its time to make the DPF go byby

 

[jrm]

seems like a plausible diagnosis, if the DPF failure causes excessive back-pressure on the Turbo causing the Turbo to fail?
what would the symptoms of DPF fail be? sudden catastrophic? or a gradual degradation of performance and fuel economy? or something else?

Nope, covered a few hundred pages back is what we call the blow torch warmup, this is when the ECU warms up the exhaust system by firing a injector really late throwing 1300F heat into the exhaust (and turbo) while the exhaust throttle is closed- creating back pressure all on a cold engine with cold oil spinning the turbo well past 200,000 RPM! My ears can here it (and dog whistles) and its spooling harder on a cold engine than it ever does at wide open throttle.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Nope, covered a few hundred pages back is what we call the blow torch warmup, this is when the ECU warms up the exhaust system by firing a injector really late throwing 1300F heat into the exhaust (and turbo) while the exhaust throttle is closed- all on a cold engine with cold oil spinning the turbo well past 200,000 RPM! My ears can here it (and dog whistles) and its spooling harder on a cold engine than it ever does at wide open throttle.

True story. Drive gently when the engine is cold.

 

[jason_]

Nope, covered a few hundred pages back is what we call the blow torch warmup, this is when the ECU warms up the exhaust system by firing a injector really late throwing 1300F heat into the exhaust (and turbo) while the exhaust throttle is closed- creating back pressure all on a cold engine with cold oil spinning the turbo well past 200,000 RPM! My ears can here it (and dog whistles) and its spooling harder on a cold engine than it ever does at wide open throttle.

Is this a trick explanation? How is the turbo whipping so fast if exhaust flow is blocked?

Is this like the CR timing belt tutorial from myturbodiesel where the guy says the cam turns twice for one crank revolution ?

3 minute mark or so. https://youtu.be/fAi667H7M2Y

 

[jrm]

I'm curious as well, but trust me it does

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Is this a trick explanation? How is the turbo whipping so fast if exhaust flow is blocked?

Is this like the CR timing belt tutorial from myturbodiesel where the guy says the cam turns twice for one crank revolution ?

3 minute mark or so. https://youtu.be/fAi667H7M2Y

There are a few of things going on.

1.) the variable geometry turbo is in its most aggressive boost setting, creating a lot of drive on the turbine wheel and a lot of boost pressure.

2.) the fuel injection system is doing post-injection, which burns in the DPF and creates a lot of heat in the exhaust system.

3.) the exhaust throttle is partially closed, reducing the amount of airflow through the exhaust and increasing the heat density (for lack of a better term), causing the system to heat up more rapidly.

These are essentially the same things that happen during a DPF regeneration, except that in this case, it's happening on a cold engine with cold oil. This process can cause significant stress of the mechanical components that are being subjected to both a rapid temperature increase and increased load.