TURBO: 2012-2014 Passat turbo failures [discussion thread]

[Hypermile]

The recall to my knowledge was to essentially detune the turbo in cold weather so it's not stressing so much on warm up. I don't have a vagcom or other device to check EGT temps but can say that I haven't observed any changes to the driving feel of the car since the update.

Understood, I found more info on this recall on the last 2 pages of the turbo failure thread.

 

[tdiatlast]

Perhaps it would be best for the "updated" to wait for a few cold-starts before posting? IMHO, it's possible anything "new" that is noticed is possibly just hyper-awareness.

...just a thought...

(zaphod99: How rapidly does your Torque readout update info?

 

[TurboDieselPoint]

I'm predicting that 23N5 mostly cuts back on turbocharger speed and boost, not EGT. In my opinion, it is the extreme speed of the turbocharger combined with a cold oil temperature, not the high EGT, that was killing the turbochargers. Perhaps the update maintains the sky-high EGT portion, but is more mindful of boost and turbocharger speed by keeping the VNT vanes more open during warm-up. After all, the description that SilverGhost posted doesn't discuss EGT, but rather boost.

This would explain why some of the folks who received the update still see high EGTs during the warm-up routine.

Still, I'm just speculating. Once I have the update I will report back with my findings.

P.S. Hopefully 23N5 will also secretly update everyone's Adblue heater with a modification to prevent people's Adblue from freezing up like a select few's did did last winter. That would be nice!

TurboDieselPoint

 

[zaphod99]

Perhaps it would be best for the "updated" to wait for a few cold-starts before posting? IMHO, it's possible anything "new" that is noticed is possibly just hyper-awareness.
...just a thought...
(zaphod99: How rapidly does your Torque readout update info?

Don't know for sure, but visually it looks like it refreshes every second.
Agreed, could just be hyper-awareness. I've observed about 15 warm up phases so far, and will continue to monitor.

 

[SilverGhost]

So here is an excerpt from the letter that is being mailed out for the 23N5 software update;​

Some vehicles may experience exhaust turbocharger failure (under extreme cold weather
conditions) in a brief time period after initial vehicle start up. This condition could cause a
MIL ON and possible vehicle performance problems. To diminish this condition
Volkswagen will momentarily decrease vehicle turbocharger boost pressure only during
extreme cold start parameters to assure necessary turbocharger performance.​

In addition, the vehicle’s engine management software has been improved to assure your
vehicle’s tailpipe emissions are optimized and operating efficiently. Under certain
operating conditions, the earlier strategy may have increased the chance of the vehicle’s
MIL light illuminating. If the MIL illuminates for any reason, your vehicle will not pass an IM
emissions inspection in some regions.​

This work will take about one hour to complete and will be performed for you free of
charge. Please keep in mind that your dealer may need additional time for the preparation​

of the repair, as well as to accommodate their daily workshop schedule.

See my highlight in red. In addition it appears that, as some people have speculated, the change was to reduce boost pressure, but not directly reduce EGT. Though it may be reduced somewhat as a result.​

Jason​

 

[AreaMan]

Also note the wording "only during extreme cold start parameters". I don't know what is considered "extreme", but it's possible that nothing is different on cold starts in say 20 or 30 degree Fahrenheit weather.

 

[tdireader]

So here is an excerpt from the letter that is being mailed out for the 23N5 software update;​

See my highlight in red. In addition it appears that, as some people have speculated, the change was to reduce boost pressure, but not directly reduce EGT. Though it may be reduced somewhat as a result.​

Jason​

I'm doing the update. But I don't doubt the possibility of introduced turbo lag. I wouldn't put it past VW/EPA to place emissions compliance over the safety of the driver.
Also of note, the text talks about emissions and lower boost pressure. Hopefully,

PV = nRT
​

will be on our side on this one.
​

 

[tdiatlast]

I'm doing the update. But I don't doubt the possibility of introduced turbo lag. I wouldn't put it past VW/EPA to place emissions compliance over the safety of the driver.
Also of note, the text talks about emissions and lower boost pressure. Hopefully,

PV = nRT
​

will be on our side on this one.
​

You're joking, right?

 

[NSTDI]

I still don't know why some turbos went at warm temperatures. I know many more went in "cold" temps, but what happened to the "warm" ones?

I guess if it is an oil flow problem, cold temps would make it worse, but it seems like there is an underlying issue, likely oil flow? The new improved versions, anyone figure out the difference?

My car is due for th 75,000KM oil change, I'm springing for the extended 200,000 KM warranty from VW, I guess I'll keep it. I really like the car, but I am nervous about the long term, the warranty will get rid of that worry.

Don

 

[MadCat]

Any idea if this ecm update would interfere with a Malone tune?

 

[phlfly]

I wonder too for Rocketchip.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Recall ID : 23N5
Discription : S-23N5 SERV_ACT ? ECM Software


I made an appointment with the dealer for the flash tomorrow and will post my findings. I'm hoping it gets rid of the blow torch DPF warm-up.

Did my American neighbors get this recall as well?

It isn't a recall. It's a "service action" and a copy of the information can be found in post #1 of this thread. It applies to ALL Passats with the CKRA engine (2012 - 2014).

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Any idea if this ecm update would interfere with a Malone tune?

It will completely wipe out your Malone tune and revert the car back to stock. It will not affect a DSG tune, however.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I still don't know why some turbos went at warm temperatures. I know many more went in "cold" temps, but what happened to the "warm" ones?


Don

Metal fatigue from the abuse during the cold temperature warm-ups.

 

[LokiWolf]

It will completely wipe out your Malone tune and revert the car back to stock. It will not affect a DSG tune, however.

What he said. I did not have it done when I was in for an oil and fuel filter change this week. Plan on discussing it with my tuner, I would hate to be stock!

 

[jhinsc]

I haven't noticed any turbo lag since the update a couple weeks ago. But I don't step on it hard until it up to temps anyway, usually about 3-5 miles into my commute. I rarely step on the accelerator more than halfway to begin with, but with warm temps coming on Sunday before the deep freeze hit's mid-week, maybe I should do an 'Italian' tune-up? I don't think I've ever gone much over 3200-3500 rpms since I haven't the need to do so, and usually that's when I'm playing around in Sport mode at partial throttle.

 

[NSTDI]

Metal fatigue from the abuse during the cold temperature warm-ups.

Not to be sassy to you VDTDI, but what about the low mile ones, like under 1000 miles and some who went a long ways and then blew up?

The small turbo must have added a variable to the equation that put added stress on something, like it added to little oil flow or extra load on metal causing premature metal fatigue.

The new replacement turbo blows up way less than the old one so maybe this flash will eliminate a few more from going?

I'm getting the flash on Tuesday.

VDTDI, what do you do for a living? Something VW related?

Don

 

[Herkguy]

Also note the wording "only during extreme cold start parameters". I don't know what is considered "extreme", but it's possible that nothing is different on cold starts in say 20 or 30 degree Fahrenheit weather.

I am curious of the parameters also. If its -20 OAT, but I am in a garage which is +35 OAT and eng at +45, i start and back out; is it looking at initial start parameters(air and eng temp) or does it look at OAT through out the warm up or is it looking at water temp?

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Not to be sassy to you VDTDI, but what about the low mile ones, like under 1000 miles and some who went a long ways and then blew up?

The small turbo must have added a variable to the equation that put added stress on something, like it added to little oil flow or extra load on metal causing premature metal fatigue.

The new replacement turbo blows up way less than the old one so maybe this flash will eliminate a few more from going?

I'm getting the flash on Tuesday.

VDTDI, what do you do for a living? Something VW related?

Don

Don,

No worries on the sassy part - you're asking a great question. The super low mile ones could be infant mortality, owners who have no concept of mechanical sympathy whatsoever and hightail it onto the highway immediately after cold start, or some other factor or factors that we haven't considered or are unaware of.

I think low oil flow could be a compounding problem, but I think it stems from the oil being cold during the warmup period and not really a design problem in the oiling system. That's just speculation on my part, of course. I don't have any sort of technical documents or data to back it up one way or the other.

I think VW has made the right move by reducing turbo load at cold temperatures. As drivers, I think it is still important for us to monitor temperatures and be cognizant of what's happening under the hood as a result of driver inputs.

As for what I do for work, I'm sort of a jack of all trades, but I work in the event management and facility operations/management business, and my background is in theater, particularly the behind-the-scenes stuff (motors, rigging, lighting, sound, stage management, etc.). I've been in the VW diesel scene since I was 18 years old (I was the youngest member on TDIClub when I joined back in 2000). For fun, I usually like to read technical manuals and learn how things work... my favorites are diesel engines and other large machines.

 

[NSTDI]

Thanks VDTDI, you obviously have a mechanical mind. As a sideline, start selling Upsolute chips, German made. Not sure what they have for the 2012-2014's but if they make one, I may get it. If it doesn't void my warranty.

I am a pencil pusher, but have a mechanical mind, had a 56 Beetle when I was 12. Always liked to work with my hands, it helps you get a "feel" for many things.

I guess Upsolute and a 56 Beetle are still "on topic"?

Don

 

[MadCat]

It will completely wipe out your Malone tune and revert the car back to stock. It will not affect a DSG tune, however.

Thank you! When the dealer service dept called, he was confused when i said that i wanted to research the update first.

So happy that i asked here first!

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Upsolute was so year-2000.

I had one of their chips on my 2000 Beetle, and it was pretty rough compared to some of the others. Good power, but smokey and hard on the clutch due to torque delivery. They aren't really around in the USA market anymore, so I don't know what their current offerings are.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Thank you! When the dealer service dept called, he was confused when i said that i wanted to research the update first.

So happy that i asked here first!

Any good tuner will re-tune you for a nominal charge (labor) or free. Setup an appointment with your dealer, then have the re-tune done. Make sure that your tuner is using the new update (23N5) as their base so that you don't revert back to the old emissions warm-up program!

 

[LokiWolf]

Any good tuner will re-tune you for a nominal charge (labor) or free. Setup an appointment with your dealer, then have the re-tune done. Make sure that your tuner is using the new update (23N5) as their base so that you don't revert back to the old emissions warm-up program!

Exactly. No issues, other than scheduling, and waiting for Mark to say he has a tune that takes the new base into account. Also curious as to what he has to say about it after he gets a look at the code. We can all speculate what it is doing, but he can tell us exactly what it is doing!

 

[Jbdesigns]

I'm convinced that most turbo failures are due to cold oil and high rpm in the turbo. My job is high speed turbo machinery for the past 27 years. VW should not have forced or allowed the turbo to make much boost while the oil temp is still cold. And by cold, I mean below 100F. The viscosity change from cold to warm is pretty drastic even for multi viscosity oils. It is better with synthetic than with Dino oils (the spread between high visc and lower visc is less with sun oils).

With VW changing the program, I think this is good. Waiting till oil is warmer before letting turbo spin up too high will help a lot.

With cold oil, the shaft might have experienced whirl or very high localized temps at the bearing because of very low oil flow through the bearing when it's cold and thick. The bearings are designed for 212F oil which has very low viscosity. They hope they work when it's cold but it's sketchy then. Add a drastic warm up with high boost and you can get a problem on some turbos that might be on the tight side of tolerance stack up. You know, large on shaft OD, and on small side of bearing ID.


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[jrm]

With cold oil, the shaft might have experienced whirl or very high localized temps at the bearing because of very low oil flow through the bearing when it's cold and thick. The bearings are designed for 212F oil which has very low viscosity. They hope they work when it's cold but it's sketchy then. Add a drastic warm up with high boost and you can get a problem on some turbos that might be on the tight side of tolerance stack up. You know, large on shaft OD, and on small side of bearing ID.


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about 150 pages back my Father who has thousands of hours of F series jet experience with single engine 100 series F106 on Pratt engines said that he also suspected this, and maybe even a cold seizure of the inner berring expanding to fast and scuffing up the outer bore- slowly destroying the shaft's bore.
My ears are just young enough to here the turbo break crazy high RPM during the warmup period, easily 50,000 RPM and way higher than full throttle on a warm engine

 

[psd1]

Looks like there has been another three failures in the last week or so. I can't recall who it was that was saying cold weather wasn't a part of the turbo failures...

 

[EfinTDI]

Looks like there has been another three failures in the last week or so. I can't recall who it was that was saying cold weather wasn't a part of the turbo failures...

Probably the same people that don't believe in warming up their vehicles a bit before driving...

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Just a reminder - cold weather is here. I recommend letting your car idle for a couple of minutes before driving off! Keep that turbo happy.

 

[tdiatlast]

Looks like there has been another three failures in the last week or so. I can't recall who it was that was saying cold weather wasn't a part of the turbo failures...

I can always tell the season: winter, a few NMS turbos fail, summer, a few CR Jetta high pressure fuel pumps fail.