tuning analysis - what's in a malone tune - starter kit

[dieseldonato]

They are perhaps not “quick,” especially not in stock form, and we are not talking about land speed records either, but they are very capable cars (though detuned for North America).
I mean, they were designed in the country that is home to the speedlimitless highway so...

That being said, we are all aware that we are not driving racecars. No need to try to flex about other fast cars you’ve owned/driven/whatever by pooh-poohing these cars...

It wasn't a pooh, pooh to our cars. It was a simple fact, even heavily modded they arnt fast. I would say quick, nimble, enjoyable and even comfortable to drive. Not a combination of characteristics many cars can say they have.

 

[p.e.fletcher]

you did head work, did you also coat / machine the pistons?
i worry about putting a bigger cam into my CJAA due to @travis45 's expierence where the valves hit the pistons

No, he went with Colt Cams. These are darkside cams they specifically state no machining necessary will work with stock clearance but should be measured to be extra safe so we will do. Hoping for the best so bottom end can stay put.

Performance / Race Camshaft Kit for 1.6 & 2.0 TDI Common Rail Diesel Engines

High Performance / Race Camshaft Kit for VAG Common Rail Diesel Engines

www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk

High Performance / Race Camshaft Kit for 1.6 & 2.0 TDI 16v VAG Common Rail Diesel Engines

After a lot of testing we now able to offer a camshaft upgrade that can be dropped into a stock engine (in regards to Valve Clearance and Valve Springs), whilst giving the best gains possible, across the full rev range

We would expect to see gains of around 10 - 20BHP with a Torque Increase of 25FtIb+ when fitting these camshafts

Although piston modification should not be necessary with this camshaft we recommend double checking all clearances prior to running the engine. We cannot account for all possible piston, block, head, head gasket combinations / changes

 

[lemoncurd]

No, he went with Colt Cams. These are darkside cams they specifically state no machining necessary will work with stock clearance but should be measured to be extra safe so we will do. Hoping for the best so bottom end can stay put.

Performance / Race Camshaft Kit for 1.6 & 2.0 TDI Common Rail Diesel Engines

High Performance / Race Camshaft Kit for VAG Common Rail Diesel Engines

www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk

ah ok i see, perhaps ill see what thickness head gasket i have on my TDI currently. hopefully 1 or 2 hole.

if so, i could put those cams in + port the head and just put a 3 hole gasket on and hopefully have enough clearance without worry..

@travis45 feel free to weigh in

 

[Nevada_TDI]

I honestly didn't know Guthrie's business name. Better than naming it BurpTronics...

I'm honestly confused..

First, the comment is, "If you really want to 'move it, move it', get nozzles done by Franko6."

BUT...

"I knew it had to do with the tune and not with the quality of Frank’s work."

I'm good, but not as good as a tune? What do you think Guthrie?

I still have this theory. Bad tune, Bad nozzles, BAD performance...Good Nozzles, Bad tune...etcetera with three iterations. I've said it all before.

Warning: RANT!

WARNING ABOUT USPS SHIPMENTS: There are known problems with 'smash and grab' break-in's for rail cars and delivery vans, including USPS. When shipping nozzles, coming or going, I'm recommend Priority Mail, Signature Delivery with Tracking and insurance on each box. I've heard the stories what has happened with 'That Other Guy', several times, 'Your injectors didn't make it here'.

In February, I got only a label pasted onto an apology letter from USPS with the box and injectors completely lost. $600 of insurance. USPS said, "We will look for it." 3 months later, they can't find it. Canned request from USPS: "Send the damaged box and packaging. Make a claim on your tracking #." THE TRACKING NUMBER DOESN'T WORK AFTER 3 MONTHS! USPS, YOU LOST THE BOX! I can't get anyone at USPS to listen to this situation.

That ad that says, "We got to Move It, Move It!" is the USPS spending Taxpayers' dollars trying to get more people to get their packages lost by Postal workers that DO NOT CARE. "We got to LOSE IT, LOSE IT!" Is what that ad should say.

USPS shipping advice: Figure out Shippo. For one, the pricing is usually better and Shippo uses their own separate insurance company which is NOT the USPS insurance. USPS package insurance has been sold to a private company. I'm sure the new owner's goal is to recoup their purchase cost by NOT PAYING CLAIMS.

@franko6I didn’t realize the move it move. It thing was the Postal Service Frank I apologize for that. I’ve also got to learn to start proofreading my text messages before I send them because the microphone thing is kind of easy and I agree you know you can put garbage in you put garbage out that’s kind of what happens with motors, and everything else. But I will say one thing for sure Frank I had a marginal tune I use a set of nozzles the same size that I took out of it as the ones of yours I put in it and it ran like it had a new motor in it you can’t make a silk purse out of a sows ear , no matter how hard you try

 

[pull the trigger]

Let's say I want to buy a tune, but don't have VCDS or even a laptop, is that an option with burpod? Can he delete the immobilizer, EGR, MAF? Can he safely write a tune with the turbo model, injector model and pump size? Or would I be better off copying a known performers exact turbo, injectors...and tune? I know, a lot of questions, but before I read this, I had all these questions, but didn't know where to ask. Thanks!!

 

[pkhoury]

Let's say I want to buy a tune, but don't have VCDS or even a laptop, is that an option with burpod? Can he delete the immobilizer, EGR, MAF? Can he safely write a tune with the turbo model, injector model and pump size? Or would I be better off copying a known performers exact turbo, injectors...and tune? I know, a lot of questions, but before I read this, I had all these questions, but didn't know where to ask. Thanks!!

He could, but it's going to be far from an ideal tune without logs, which require a laptop (even a cheap $hitty laptop) and VCDS. And you'd still have to mail him your ECU at that point. It would get pretty expensive if you were mailing your ECU back and forth on a weekly basis to get things dialed in, but again, I don't think it's possible to dial things in without proper logs.

 

[pull the trigger]

So am I better off going with whatever is in the ecm from VW?

 

[lemoncurd]

So am I better off going with whatever is in the ecm from VW?

without logging and getting a tune dialed in, yep.

 

[pkhoury]

So am I better off going with whatever is in the ecm from VW?

Yup. Say you got an off the shelf tune. Say you had a small or bad turbo, big ass injector nozzles, or etc. You're mashing on that pedal. Overboost condition, your injectors are just dumping fuel in your cylinders. Yup, could be the recipe for catastrophic failure. I mean, that's probably an extreme example, but yeah. Stick with stock.

I guess I'm still amazed how many people don't own laptops, or even printers anymore. I had a potential customer drive about 500 miles round trip, didn't have the right tools to check a TDI I was selling, and went home empty handed.

As for immobilizer delete - that's super easy on the ALH. Why the hell people charge a hundred bucks for it, I don't know. But you need a laptop and a different-than-VCDS cable. Takes all of about 5 minutes, if that. Very useful when you swap cluster, or if you're doing an ALH swap somewhere.

 

[pull the trigger]

Next question, my stock turbo died, I have a 1517 coming from xman. If I drop in a set of .216 injectors with no tune, what's potentially gonna happen? Smoke like crazy? Thanks, I really appreciate everyone and all the education on here

 

[pkhoury]

Next question, my stock turbo died, I have a 1517 coming from xman. If I drop in a set of .216 injectors with no tune, what's potentially gonna happen? Smoke like crazy? Thanks, I really appreciate everyone and all the education on here

@burpod and others on here would be able to better answer than than I would. But in a nutshell, the stock tune in your car intends for a VNT15, which IIRC, has a max boost of 19psi, and stock injectors. So a different variety of things can happen.

I have .260 injectors in my daily, and will be doing the same in my backup car. While the nozzles support more fuel, with a proper tune, injection duration can also be decreased - so more volume of fuel, but not as long, which means more efficient burns and not having to worry about melting my pistons from overfueling. Again, just my understanding of how it works, but since this thread is from @burpod, he would be able to answer these questions better than I would.

For responsible tuning, from ANY vendor, logs should be tantamount and VCDS is really required for that, along with other things. Sometimes you can find VCDS cables pop up on ebay for not a lot of coin, and you can get away with one of those $80 new celeron based laptops with Windows 10 Starter. VCDS doesn't need a lot of resources to run, really.

I suppose my last thought - all you really need to program your ECU is an MPPS cable, which you can get from (sadly) China for about 50 bucks or less. All tunes are is a binary file that rewrites the flash in the ECU. The well known tuners provide a flashing box you gotta buy (more expensive than a sub $100 starter laptop), only to keep you from loading the tune on other cars. I find it ironic, because ALH ECUs are beyond easy to clone, and not tied to a specific VIN/car. And as I mentioned before, immobilizer deletes are super easy. On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being difficult, programming/cloning your ECU - 1. Immobilizer delete - 1.5 maybe?

 

[pull the trigger]

I think I understand the tuning process and potential improvements, what I incorrectly conveyed was, what would happen with 1517 turbo and the .216 injectors with the factory VW mapping (tune)? The ECM has no feedback from an O2 sensor, so it has no idea that fueling levels have increased....with out mapping it's just running blind?

 

[lemoncurd]

my stock turbo died, I have a 1517 coming from xman. If I drop in a set of .216 injectors with no tune

not trying to be rude, but you can afford a new turbo + nozzles but not VCDS?
i would STRONGLY recommend EVERY VAG owner with a vehicle that has OBD2 to get VCDS at a minimum. if you really want to go nuts with VAG, buy VCP and ODIS too

spend the money on a real ross tech VCDS cable, and MPPS cable, then get yourself a real tune from @burpod . buy once cry once.
burpod may be able to point you in the right direction for getting an MPPS cable.

@ me in a couple days, i might have an MPPS cable in my garage i cant use. i dont remember if it is genuine or not (so probably not), if i still have it ill just give it to ya

you will need to get your own OBD2 pinout cable for it though if you need to bench flash. they're available on amazon for pretty cheap

 

[pull the trigger]

It's not so much the money as my disgusting lack of computer abilities. I read some of the stuff on here and it is completely foreign. And I live nowhere near anyone I'm aware of, that does this stuff. You think I'm a pain now, I'd get banned with the stupid questions I'd have trying to navigate a computer

 

[jmodge]

It's not so much the money as my disgusting lack of computer abilities. I read some of the stuff on here and it is completely foreign. And I live nowhere near anyone I'm aware of, that does this stuff. You think I'm a pain now, I'd get banned with the stupid questions I'd have trying to navigate a computer

I know what you mean, but you can’t really do much without VCDS. I’ve slowly learned how to do a few things with it and feel fortunate to have it and grateful for the people who somehow have the time and inclination to post informative videos and such.
You won’t regret getting it and it will come in useful in spite of a lack of computer skills.

 

[pkhoury]

not trying to be rude, but you can afford a new turbo + nozzles but not VCDS?
i would STRONGLY recommend EVERY VAG owner with a vehicle that has OBD2 to get VCDS at a minimum. if you really want to go nuts with VAG, buy VCP and ODIS too

spend the money on a real ross tech VCDS cable, and MPPS cable, then get yourself a real tune from @burpod . buy once cry once.
burpod may be able to point you in the right direction for getting an MPPS cable.

@ me in a couple days, i might have an MPPS cable in my garage i cant use. i dont remember if it is genuine or not (so probably not), if i still have it ill just give it to ya

you will need to get your own OBD2 pinout cable for it though if you need to bench flash. they're available on amazon for pretty cheap

Unless you're paying $1500 or whatever the cost is, it's not a genuine MPPS cable. Trust me, I wish I could afford a genuine MPPS, but the price isn't attainable.

Oh, and to @pull the trigger , if you find a VCDS cable, make sure it's genuine. That's a case where you DON'T want a counterfeit cable (yes, they do exist).

 

[pkhoury]

It's not so much the money as my disgusting lack of computer abilities. I read some of the stuff on here and it is completely foreign. And I live nowhere near anyone I'm aware of, that does this stuff. You think I'm a pain now, I'd get banned with the stupid questions I'd have trying to navigate a computer

Thankfully, they're A LOT more intuitive now than they were 25 years ago. I once helped a woman in high school (back in the mid-late 90s) upgrade her home/business computer system from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95/OS/2. On all three systems, she said she's cried, because she couldn't figure out how to turn off her computer or do simple things. Yes, they can be daunting, but we've come A LONG way since then.

Or put it this way - if my dad can check his email on gmail without assistance, you can figure out how to use VCDS on a laptop. My dad, and the aforementioned woman I helped in high school, are both at or near 80, and if they figured it out (albeit taking a few years to do so), you can figure it out.

 

[Moparmax]

I think I understand the tuning process and potential improvements, what I incorrectly conveyed was, what would happen with 1517 turbo and the .216 injectors with the factory VW mapping (tune)? The ECM has no feedback from an O2 sensor, so it has no idea that fueling levels have increased....with out mapping it's just running blind?

Im sure it would run, but it won’t be right. Get a VCDS and an MPPS cable, talk with Burpod. You will not regret the results, his stuff runs very well and gets great milage. I have two cars with different combinations of parts running Burpod tunes and I’m very happy with them both.

 

[GTiTDi]

I got a good giggle with "something I want to drive fast." Our tdi's are many things, even heavily modified I wouldn't class them as "fast." LOL.

Depends on your power to weight ratio. My CJAA swapped mk2 GTI is no slouch. Challengers that catch up usually think it has a VRT swap.

 

[dieseldonato]

Depends on your power to weight ratio. My CJAA swapped mk2 GTI is no slouch. Challengers that catch up usually think it has a VRT swap.

I didn't realize a challenger was fast, but sure everyone's definition of fast is different.

 

[lemoncurd]

@dieseldonato CR TDI's can be fast
you just need a proper tune and well thought out hardware.

Being FWD also does not help matters. With my current setup on a malone tune, i run a high 5 second 0-60. 5.8 i believe, and i was spinning until 45-50mph.

If i had traction (so AWD or just better tires) i reckon i could have gotten into the low 5's. After I am done putting the CP3, headstuds, injectors, intercooler, and water meth in it should be able to run a high 4 second if AWD swapped. And thats out of a 3,300lb wagon

Not everything is about raw HP numbers. You need to look at the torque output, aswell as where the power is made. Specifically where that power is made and how does that play with your gear ratio's.

Youre kind of walking the same logic line as "oh, more boost = more hp!" which is not true at all. More HP also doesnt really mean faster.
Sure, you could make 60psi of boost, but you'd ruin your VE. IAT's would sky rocket, EMPs probably off the charts, and youll sit there wondering why its only made 220bhp. Same thing with aiming for just high HP figures. You could have a car that makes 600whp, but it could only make that much in the last 700RPM of it's 7k RPM band. Before then it would just be a slouch, and get walked on by probably a GTI with a turbo + proper tune. Or perhaps my TDI once im done with it

Now if you want to argue the dollar / power measurement. Then sure, TDI's lose in that category. But personally I would rather pay a little extra for a TDI as i would be maintaining my high reliability and great fuel economy.

But hey, just my $0.02. I'll keep enjoying beating 90% of people on the road in my slow TDI

PS, i absolutely walked a standard RWD tesla model 3 through an intersection a couple months ago. Enjoy!!

 

[GTiTDi]

@dieseldonato CR TDI's can be fast
you just need a proper tune and well thought out hardware.

Being FWD also does not help matters. With my current setup on a malone tune, i run a high 5 second 0-60. 5.8 i believe, and i was spinning until 45-50mph.

If i had traction (so AWD or just better tires)

Lemonturd!!!
I have a Peloquin LSD and sticky-ish tires and yeah traction is an issue for sure, and mine is only mildly modded at this point. I like how it drives and handles as it is, nimble and responsive, which is why I have shied away from doing an AWD conversion.
You aren't that far away from me! We should def gtg at some point dude! @burpod is right over the bridge from me!

 

[lemoncurd]

Lemonturd!!!
I have a Peloquin LSD and sticky-ish tires and yeah traction is an issue for sure, and mine is only mildly modded at this point. I like how it drives and handles as it is, nimble and responsive, which is why I have shied away from doing an AWD conversion.
You aren't that far away from me! We should def gtg at some point dude! @burpod is right over the bridge from me!

we for sure have to make a meetup happen

i think an LSD + sticky tires would make a ton of difference for me, im just open diff with all seasons lol

 

[oilhammer]

Tiny FWD cars with V8 levels of torque have a particularly special feel about them, LOL. It kinda reminds me in a way of the Vulcan V6 Ford Tempos back in the day, or some of the older Northstar Cadillacs. Except 50 MPGs.

 

[dieseldonato]

@dieseldonato CR TDI's can be fast
you just need a proper tune and well thought out hardware.

Being FWD also does not help matters. With my current setup on a malone tune, i run a high 5 second 0-60. 5.8 i believe, and i was spinning until 45-50mph.

If i had traction (so AWD or just better tires) i reckon i could have gotten into the low 5's. After I am done putting the CP3, headstuds, injectors, intercooler, and water meth in it should be able to run a high 4 second if AWD swapped. And thats out of a 3,300lb wagon

Not everything is about raw HP numbers. You need to look at the torque output, aswell as where the power is made. Specifically where that power is made and how does that play with your gear ratio's.

Youre kind of walking the same logic line as "oh, more boost = more hp!" which is not true at all. More HP also doesnt really mean faster.
Sure, you could make 60psi of boost, but you'd ruin your VE. IAT's would sky rocket, EMPs probably off the charts, and youll sit there wondering why its only made 220bhp. Same thing with aiming for just high HP figures. You could have a car that makes 600whp, but it could only make that much in the last 700RPM of it's 7k RPM band. Before then it would just be a slouch, and get walked on by probably a GTI with a turbo + proper tune. Or perhaps my TDI once im done with it

Now if you want to argue the dollar / power measurement. Then sure, TDI's lose in that category. But personally I would rather pay a little extra for a TDI as i would be maintaining my high reliability and great fuel economy.

But hey, just my $0.02. I'll keep enjoying beating 90% of people on the road in my slow TDI

PS, i absolutely walked a standard RWD tesla model 3 through an intersection a couple months ago. Enjoy!!

We have vastly different ideas of what fast it, that much is apparent. My uncle and a cousin drag raced for most my life. Dad ran boats in an unlimited offshore class. He ran the standing 1/4 mile, pure acceleration. I remember when Mike's rail broke 6 second 1/4 mile times back in the early 2000's. It was a very proud moment for him. Uncle Cal's old 57 nomad did high 7's. I grew up with fast.
You wouldn't know this, but for years (actually I co-oped when I was in high school) I worked for a diesel machine shop. Worked my way into building engines and over the road service. It's actually something I greatly miss doing.(life take odd changes) One of our niches was building high performance engines for pulling and heavy hauling. Over the years I became quite familiar with how to make power out of a diesel engine.
A few of the things you said aren't quite accurate. First intake temps are only important if you can't control them. Most the pulling engines we built didn't have intercoolers due to rule limitations. Most of the time we were allowed to inject water, however it wasn't to cool the incoming air, it was to manage in cylinder combustion temperatures directly.
At some point, you'll realize that you've hit a flow limitation and higher boost is in fact what it take to make power. Porting, cams and larger valves can only get you so far, then you just need more boost. This is very basic principal of fluid dynamics. For more flow you either need a bigger hole, or more pressure to increase flow. This is true in everything from plumbing to hydraulics and hvac.
Drive pressure, this is very misunderstood. Typically you would be looking for a 1:1 ratio, while it is possible it's not the norm. Usually you have a slightly higher drive pressure then boost pressure. With a properly sized turbo for the expected power output, no matter the boost pressure you should be very close to having a neutral drive to boost ratio. One of the biggest issues seen is having high drive pressure to low boost output, or over driving a turbo that's too small/too big. Vgt turbos make this much easier to deal with. Exhaust restriction after the turbo need considered here as well.
Higher boost doesn't automatically mean higher intake temps either, usually you get hot when you're way outside of the turbos efficient compressing zone, really at this point its time to reevaluate your choice of turbo, and or inter/aftercooling options.
I'd also argue the point of high boost being "bad" to consider how the trend to higher boost has been in turbo diesels over the years. 15 years ago 25 psi was high. Now it's not unheard of to see factory engines at 40psi.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

With mods these cars feel quick, but they're not really fast. My Wagon with pretty extensive mods could get better lap times on the track than a MKVI GTI, but I suspect that was only because I had better tires.

I'm always surprised at how responsive my B4 is with RC2, but it most certainly isn't fast by any measure. The torque fools us.

 

[J_dude]

With mods these cars feel quick, but they're not really fast. My Wagon with pretty extensive mods could get better lap times on the track than a MKVI GTI, but I suspect that was only because I had better tires.

I'm always surprised at how responsive my B4 is with RC2, but it most certainly isn't fast by any measure. The torque fools us.

The torque is the fun stuff anyway so that’s okay

 

[oilhammer]

You guys should go drive some epic slow cars for comparison. If dieselnato doesn't think a [Hemi] Challenger is fast, he'd probably think a CVT Forester is glacial. I think anything with the Hemi is pretty darn fast, really. No, it's no dragster. And in the pickups, they run out of steam pretty quick on the highway.

You can only go as fast as the guy in front of you anyway.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

My first diesel was a '78 Rabbit w/48 HP, and my first VW was a '57 Bug with 36 HP. I learned to drive in a '66 Bus that, I believe, had 53 HP. So I know from slow.

 

[oilhammer]

But have you experienced a 48hp diesel Vanagon? Actually, it feels pretty close to my buddy's '63 panel that is the 40 horse, so... yeah, no speed records.