Trying to buy another newer TDI

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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You might be right, but if someone violates federal law by tuning a vehicle to perform outside emissions limits, and then tries to obtain a warranty repair in violation of dealer policy, I kind of doubt they're going to post about their experience on a public forum that VW is known to visit. I suspect we don't really know what the incidence is of denied warranty claims for tuned vehicles.
 

Nuje

Top Post Dawg
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Feb 11, 2005
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Island near Vancouver
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2015 Sportwagen; Golf GLS 2002 (swap from 2L gas); 2016 A3 e-tron
Honest question: Are tunes on the Mk7 typically violating emissions limits?
And if VW were to deny a claim, what does a person lose by posting about the experience? Not like VW can double-deny you. :)
 

Twinkieflyer

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Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Location
Blacksburg, Virginia
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2002 ALH 5spd
Even programming keys requires dealer-level access because the pairing of VIN, key, ECU has to be authorized by VW servers.
Well one place sells the ecu for $700. Another says they will program for 299 if you send one which appear plentiful under 200. Both require vin. I suppose based on that info they are probably both dealers. I hate having to pay $700 but probably the safest route.
 

Cuzoe

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May 24, 2017
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MK7 Golf S
Keeping a spare ECU isn't all that practical anyway. If you ignore immo, you still have to deal with component protection.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
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Location
South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Honest question: Are tunes on the Mk7 typically violating emissions limits?
And if VW were to deny a claim, what does a person lose by posting about the experience? Not like VW can double-deny you. :)
Absolutely tunes violate emissions limits, even if all hardware is in place and working. It's fair to say there aren't any ways to increase power and/or FE without exceeding standards.

Given the number of EPA raids on tuners these days, I think customers, too, have reason to keep quiet. And I suspect some would view trying to get an emissions repair on a non-compliant vehicle as fraud. Would it get prosecuted? Doubtful. But why take that chance?
 

x1800MODMY360x

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AZ, USA
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2013 Passat TDI SEL
Well one place sells the ecu for $700. Another says they will program for 299 if you send one which appear plentiful under 200. Both require vin. I suppose based on that info they are probably both dealers. I hate having to pay $700 but probably the safest route.
The issue with that is the ECU keep mileage track as well.

I had luck with my dealer when the turbo went out, flashed it back to stock and they fixed it.
 

Twinkieflyer

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Joined
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Location
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2002 ALH 5spd
You might be right, but if someone violates federal law by tuning a vehicle to perform outside emissions limits, and then tries to obtain a warranty repair in violation of dealer policy, I kind of doubt they're going to post about their experience on a public forum that VW is known to visit. I suspect we don't really know what the incidence is of denied warranty claims for tuned vehicles.
BMW dealer tried to deny emissions warranty on a vehicle that was never modified and still under CPO. I had to start sending off fireworks so I am used to that. This car is to replace the BMW for a couple of years until my daughter hits college.

Regardless, I really want the spare ECU, and was hoping for less than 799. In Virginia you can have check engine lights on diesels and pass inspection, you just can’t remove parts. Even if I don’t get a tune, which is another 700, I still want the spare ECU on the shelf. It may be irrational but I also keep a spare engine for the airplane.
 

x1800MODMY360x

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2013 Passat TDI SEL
Bummer. So I am wondering how people sell these. I will never sell this vehicle. When I buy one I keep it until it’s dead or parts so the mileage doesn’t matter to me.
Well dealers/ people with the proper tools can set the mileage for the ECU and the cluster.

I was saying for the warranty, it's better off just tune the original ecu and if any warranty work just flash it back to stock.
 

Nuje

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Well dealers/ people with the proper tools can set the mileage for the ECU and the cluster.
No they can't.
Just ask @Cuzoe; his dealer didn't set the mileage on his Virtual Cockpit cluster when he bought it, and by the time he made it back there, it was past the 100mile limit where they could adjust it.
 

turbobrick240

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maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Are most of you guys still in the warranty period?
 

Cuzoe

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Location
Los Angeles
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MK7 Golf S
Well dealers/ people with the proper tools can set the mileage for the ECU and the cluster.

I was saying for the warranty, it's better off just tune the original ecu and if any warranty work just flash it back to stock.
The dealer (really VW, not the dealer) may or may not care about the tune if they can diagnose the issue as something that would be covered by warranty. Even with a tune you still get all the diagnostic codes and some of them clearly point to the failed part. And of course any physical problems are obvious.

But flashing back to stock does not help you. It's easy for VW to know if you've been tuned because the flash counter in your ECU will not match the number of flashes that VW has performed on your car.

The no risk way to keep your warranty and have a tune is to tune your spare ECU. Then if you have a problem swap back in your original ECU, which will match what VW expects for your car's VIN and flash counter. Of course you'll have to deal with component protection, immo blah blah. And if the issue you were having was due to engine related fault codes, you will need to drive the car until those same fonts are triggered with your re-installed original ECU.

I guess the jury is out on whether VW will have a problem if the mileage entered by the service department (taken from your odometer) doesn't match the ECU mileage. I wouldn't be too worried about that honestly.

In my opinion, all of this theoretical ECU swapping is not worth the trouble. I spend way too much time on the various forums and I don't recall any posts about ECU failures. At least none that want due to external causes... water, dropping a tool between the ECU case and the positive battery post, etc.

If you care about warranty keep the car stock, and don't worry about keeping any spare parts on hand (unless you can source a DEF tank) because the warranty will take care of it. If you don't care about warranty, then tune, delete, whatever you are comfortable with and your state allows. And of course know that you may be on the hook if something breaks.

No they can't.
Just ask @Cuzoe; his dealer didn't set the mileage on his Virtual Cockpit cluster when he bought it, and by the time he made it back there, it was past the 100mile limit where they could adjust it.
This is correct, but the limit is 100km. Now, there is a tool (that your computer will probably flag as a virus, but it is safe 😬) that can increase the mileage of a cluster on a workbench. That tool simulates input from the wheel speed sensors.

In my case it's useful because my dash has fewer miles than my car. Connect my dash to my bench setup and let the program run until the miles match. Obviously this tool is no use if your replacement dash has more miles than your car.
 

Twinkieflyer

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2002 ALH 5spd
Keeping a spare ECU isn't all that practical anyway. If you ignore immo, you still have to deal with component protection.
OK, I am getting closer but not understanding exactly where I stand. Ignoring warranty, not sure what is implied by immo and component protection. If I buy the spare ECU, have the VIN programmed to match, will the car run with it without getting a no start? Not concerned with lights on the dash, but will it run? What else do I have to buy besides the VIN programmed ECU to have it work. New keys?
 

Cuzoe

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MK7 Golf S
OK, I am getting closer but not understanding exactly where I stand. Ignoring warranty, not sure what is implied by Immo and component protection. If I buy the spare ECU, have the VIN programmed to match, will the car run with it without getting a no start? Not concerned with lights on the dash, but will it run? What else do I have to buy besides the VIN programmed ECU to have it work. New keys?
Component Protection is essentially an anti-theft measure. The can gateway (Module 19) stores a list of all other "component protected" modules in the car (ECU, Body Control Module, Cluster, Radio, DSG Module, Front Assist Radar, etc.). When you start the car the gateway pings all of those modules to make sure they belong. If a module does not belong, meaning it is not the module the gateway expects, then a component protection fault is triggered in the gateway and that specific module.
  • The effect of having triggered component protection depends on the module. But a common example is that a Radio (Module 5F) with component protection triggered does not output any audio.
  • The process of telling the gateway that all the current modules belong is called "adapting component protection" and this requires online access using VW's ODIS diagnostic program.
  • So for example, you replace your ECU (Module 01), now when you turn ignition on the gateway says "hey, I don't know who that (ECU) is" and triggers component protection fault in both the Gateway and ECU
    • I have no idea what ECU functions are impacted by having a component protection fault in the ECU
    • To clear that fault you (the dealer, someone with online ODIS access) needs to connect your car to the VW mothership and adapt component protection.
So let's assume (which may be correct, may not) the component protection fault in the ECU will not stop an engine from running.
  • Well now you have Immo that will stop the engine from running
  • Immo on the Mk7 mates your key with ECU, Gateway, Cluster, Steering Column Lock (for cars with KESSY)
    • BCM also gets key adaptation, won't stop the car form starting, but your fobs won't work to lock/unlock
  • When you do an immobilizer adaptation, again online with VW mothership, all these items are paired/mated
  • When you pop in your spare ECU the other modules go "hey, I don't know who that (ECU) is" and immo is triggered... no driving for you.
Generally, a full spare setup for an Mk7 (or any MQB) car is steering column lock, gateway, keys, cluster, and ECU. If any of those things are not matched, expect your car will not start. Something like this... https://www.ebay.com/itm/234247133421

A link about component protection, I've linked one post but the whole thread is not long...


And as time has gone on, more items have been added to the component protection list, meaning they will not work without adapting component protection if they are installed/replaced, for example:
  • 2Q0 lane assist camera is now component protected... this camera is not installed on any Mk7 factory, but can be retrofit
    • The 5Q0 and 3Q0 cameras (that did come installed on Mk7/7.5s) does not have component protection
  • 2Q0 blind spot monitor radars are component protected... again did not come on any Mk7, but can be retrofit
    • The Mk7 correct radars (5Q0, from memory) do not have component protection
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I ran into this recently with a bad clockspring, which is integral with the Steering Column Module on the later cars. I installed it, everything worked, and I was able to do the steering angle sensor Basic Setting, but there were still DTCs and some warning lights on.

Just another way for the manufacturers to make it difficult for anyone but their dealers to service the cars. Which I find dumb, because going forward, the dealer staff does not want to mess with any "old" cars, and to them old = 5+ years.
 

Cuzoe

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Location
Los Angeles
TDI
MK7 Golf S
Clocksping has no component protection. Removing/installing any of the component protected modules (that were adapted together) does not trigger component protection. Typically you can even install a different module to test things and then re-install your original module without a component protection issue.
  • Good practice if sourcing a used MIB II radio... plug in the MIB II to make sure it at least powers up properly (no resets, black screen, etc)... then reinstall your original MIB I until you're ready to do the MIB II install.
    • If you do too many power cycles with the MIB II plugged in you'll trigger component protection faults in the gateway and the MIB II
    • But when you reinstall your MIB I you'll be able to clear the gateway faults
 

Nuje

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Location
Island near Vancouver
TDI
2015 Sportwagen; Golf GLS 2002 (swap from 2L gas); 2016 A3 e-tron
Component Protection is essentially an anti-theft measure. The can gateway (Module 19) stores a list of all other "component protected" modules in the car (ECU, Body Control Module, Cluster, Radio, DSG Module, Front Assist Radar, etc.). When you start the car the gateway pings all of those modules to make sure they belong. If a module does not belong, meaning it is not the module the gateway expects, then a component protection fault is triggered in the gateway and that specific module.
  • The effect of having triggered component protection depends on the module. But a common example is that a Radio (Module 5F) with component protection triggered does not output any audio.
  • The process of telling the gateway that all the current modules belong is called "adapting component protection" and this requires online access using VW's ODIS diagnostic program.
  • So for example, you replace your ECU (Module 01), now when you turn ignition on the gateway says "hey, I don't know who that (ECU) is" and triggers component protection fault in both the Gateway and ECU
    • I have no idea what ECU functions are impacted by having a component protection fault in the ECU
    • To clear that fault you (the dealer, someone with online ODIS access) needs to connect your car to the VW mothership and adapt component protection.
So let's assume (which may be correct, may not) the component protection fault in the ECU will not stop an engine from running.
  • Well now you have Immo that will stop the engine from running
  • Immo on the Mk7 mates your key with ECU, Gateway, Cluster, Steering Column Lock (for cars with KESSY)
    • BCM also gets key adaptation, won't stop the car form starting, but your fobs won't work to lock/unlock
  • When you do an immobilizer adaptation, again online with VW mothership, all these items are paired/mated
  • When you pop in your spare ECU the other modules go "hey, I don't know who that (ECU) is" and immo is triggered... no driving for you.
Generally, a full spare setup for an Mk7 (or any MQB) car is steering column lock, gateway, keys, cluster, and ECU. If any of those things are not matched, expect your car will not start. Something like this... https://www.ebay.com/itm/234247133421

A link about component protection, I've linked one post but the whole thread is not long...


And as time has gone on, more items have been added to the component protection list, meaning they will not work without adapting component protection if they are installed/replaced, for example:
  • 2Q0 lane assist camera is now component protected... this camera is not installed on any Mk7 factory, but can be retrofit
    • The 5Q0 and 3Q0 cameras (that did come installed on Mk7/7.5s) does not have component protection
  • 2Q0 blind spot monitor radars are component protected... again did not come on any Mk7, but can be retrofit
    • The Mk7 correct radars (5Q0, from memory) do not have component protection
Superb explanation, @Cuzoe! 👍

With all the retrofits I've messed around with, I was familiar with most of this information, but I still learned a couple of new nuggets.
One additional thing I'd consider: I know that once a Mk7 key is paired to a car, you can't pair it to another car. So, does "new/different ECU" get treated as "different car" by the keys; or maybe it's the steering lock module (?)

I think the tl;dr would be:
  • This ain't your grandfather's Oldsmobile (or your Mk4 for that matter), where swapping an ECU is a plug & play operation; every time you do it, you're going to require dealer-level access and ODIS
  • Many things can be replaced without CP, but those integral to the operation of the car or easily stolen, do have CP
  • Having a module with CP active makes for a less than wonderful driving experience (if any at all); it's not just warning lights on the dash - functionality is lost.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Wasn't the clockspring. It was the Steering Column Module (the clockspring is part of that.... not a separate piece like on older cars). I got it all reconfigured, though. Just took longer, and ODIS is really an albatross to use.

I think one of the DTCs was "incorrect coding" or something of that nature. Been a couple years, so I do not remember the specifics, I just know it was different (this was a 2015 Golf). And it may not have been the CP feature at all, but it had to have something extra done. Soft Coding and Basic Settings alone didn't do it.
 

Nuje

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Location
Island near Vancouver
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2015 Sportwagen; Golf GLS 2002 (swap from 2L gas); 2016 A3 e-tron
Not to be the "well actually...." guy, but.... ;)
(and I will preface by saying that I will defer to @oilhammer's expertise pretty much without question in almost any situation).

I've removed and replaced the clockspring (just the clockspring) on a few cars - it's wholly separate from the Steering Column module; and in fact does look a lot like the ones from the older cars.
(Stock, no heat on top; one with the SW heater connection that went in below.)



 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Steering Control Module:

5Q0-953-539-A

Has the spiral cable part of it.

That little printed circuit board inside, seen from the bottom? That's what used to be the separate module that plugged into everything from below (like a an A5 car, for instance... they use the left stalk assembly, right stalk assembly, then the module from underneath, then the clock spring with steering angle sensor goes on over all of it).

In fact, if you just search in ETKA for "clockspring" under an A7 Golf, it comes up with nothing... because it is part of that module, whereas you search "clockspring" for an A5 car in ETKA, and it takes you right to "clockspring with cancel ring".

Like I said, the CP thing may not have been at play here, but I had to do something different.
 
Last edited:

Nuje

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Island near Vancouver
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We're dangerously close to getting way off-topic here, but that's not a valid part number that I can find.
Clockspring is 5Q0953569x or 5Q0953549x - and like I said, having replaced with both new out of the box and used from wreck, no issues with CP.
Just replaced it last week on my wife's car (installed 5Q0953549D) and I only change the coding (VCDS) on the actual steering wheel which was replaced at the same time (for the heat).
 

Cuzoe

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May 24, 2017
Location
Los Angeles
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MK7 Golf S
Superb explanation, @Cuzoe! 👍

With all the retrofits I've messed around with, I was familiar with most of this information, but I still learned a couple of new nuggets.
One additional thing I'd consider: I know that once a Mk7 key is paired to a car, you can't pair it to another car. So, does "new/different ECU" get treated as "different car" by the keys; or maybe it's the steering lock module (?)

I think the tl;dr would be:
  • This ain't your grandfather's Oldsmobile (or your Mk4 for that matter), where swapping an ECU is a plug & play operation; every time you do it, you're going to require dealer-level access and ODIS
  • Many things can be replaced without CP, but those integral to the operation of the car or easily stolen, do have CP
  • Having a module with CP active makes for a less than wonderful driving experience (if any at all); it's not just warning lights on the dash - functionality is lost.
Interesting question about one-time pairing of a key. My suspicion is this limitation is on the VW mothership side. And there system may not allow a key to be paired to again. My assumption (gotta be careful with these) is that the key is a passive device which has a code of some type. When you do an immo/key adaptation you start the process then bring the key you want to pair near the column (or stick it in the ignition for peasant S trim cars like mine). At that point I believe the mothership side says something to the effect of "hey cluster, ecu, gateway and steering lock assembly (KESSY cars), you guys can feel free to let this engine run if using this key" and then you can do that for multiple keys. At the same time, the code from the key(s) gets stored in the BCM so the fobs can lock/unlock. On older cars it was possible to manually add fobs that would lock/unlock the car but not start it. Not the case with our BCM, it's all one process in ODIS.

Steering Control Module:

5Q0-953-539-A

Has the spiral cable part of it.

That little printed circuit board inside, seen from the bottom? That's what used to be the separate module that plugged into everything from below (like a an A5 car, for instance... they use the left stalk assembly, right stalk assembly, then the module from underneath, then the clock spring with steering angle sensor goes on over all of it).
I suspect you guys are mixing Steering Control Module (clock spring, if you will, which also had coding for the stalks/steering wheel buttons, but no component protection) with Steering Lock Module (which as Immo inclusive part, maybe has component protection on a KESSY equipped car).

And yes, I assume there was a typo there, and should be 549x or 569x.
 

Twinkieflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Location
Blacksburg, Virginia
TDI
2002 ALH 5spd
I am completely overwhelmed. As a high tech defense contractor electrical engineer, I am feeling pretty stupid about now.
I don’t think I am going to figure this one out but…
Can anyone, a dealer someone, clone a spare computer for this car for some cost that I can have on the shelf?
Does anyone have any idea what the cost would be?
Beginning to sound like no.
 

Cuzoe

Veteran Member
Joined
May 24, 2017
Location
Los Angeles
TDI
MK7 Golf S
Short answer... nope.

Long answser... maybe someone out there with the right interface and some soldering skills could do an EEPROM dump of our car's ECU. They would then need to be able to write that to a spare ECU. Assuming that is possible, meaning all the checksums match, and that the ECU serial number is stored in that data it might work, as long as the car's systems aren't doing any additional checks that we don't know (or need to know) about.

My question... that you are by no means obligated to answer or explain... is why do you want a spare ECU on the shelf?
- And to be fair, you can have a spare... but any time you switch ECU's you're going to need to make a dealer trip (probably towed).
 

Nuje

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Island near Vancouver
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Yeah - that was my thought as well.

Yes - you can keep a spare ECU set up for your car on the shelf.
But no - you (home user) wouldn't be able to just swap it in and out without either having done the hypothetical cloning process @Cuzoe describes above (which I would agree, is theoretical with a lot of "maybe"s in there), or having the swap authorized by VW servers (typically at a dealership).
 

Twinkieflyer

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Joined
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Location
Blacksburg, Virginia
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2002 ALH 5spd
Ok I got it, unobtainium.
And to be fair, you can have a spare... but any time you switch ECU's you're going to need to make a dealer trip (probably towed).
I will need to base something else in the location where it was going eventually, which is totally dealer inaccesible.
My other option is I have a purely manual pump head for an ALH so I could buy another one of those rather than planning to move this one.

Thanks everyone. I bought this car to teach my daughter to drive and then to ship out to an island, but that clearly won’t work. The tune would never have violated US laws or any other at that point.
 

Cuzoe

Veteran Member
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May 24, 2017
Location
Los Angeles
TDI
MK7 Golf S
Ok I got it, unobtainium.

I will need to base something else in the location where it was going eventually, which is totally dealer inaccesible.
My other option is I have a purely manual pump head for an ALH so I could buy another one of those rather than planning to move this one.

Thanks everyone. I bought this car to teach my daughter to drive and then to ship out to an island, but that clearly won’t work. The tune would never have violated US laws or any other at that point.
Still have the question... why do you want a spare ECU? 😁

I don't keep any spare parts on hand, being fortunate enough to have three dealers within 5 miles... Or unfortunate enough to live in an area with so many car dealers, haha.

But if I was trying to stock spare parts for this car an ECU is not one I would keep. Where I interested in actually doing the job (I am not, at all) probably a water pump. And things I would do myself..
glow plug or two (although you do need VCDS or OBD11 to enter the serial number of the replacement, but no dealer needed), crank position sensor and a clock spring.
 

740GLE

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Aug 19, 2009
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NH
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2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
I am completely overwhelmed. As a high tech defense contractor electrical engineer, I am feeling pretty stupid about now.

Don't worry feeling stupid a prerequisite for being a Defense Contractor EE these days ;)

This comes from a former civilian DoD EE combat systems support staff,
 

Twinkieflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Location
Blacksburg, Virginia
TDI
2002 ALH 5spd
Based on the experts here, it is obvious to me that the claims from suppliers such as FS1 are false as stated on their website.
From FS1 website:
“Our 2015 Volkswagen Jetta ECM will arrive Programmed & Updated to your vehicle's VIN (Vehicle Identification Number). The unit will be Plug and Play with no additional programming required.”

Just so others don’t pursue a road like I did which will not lead to a working vehicle, only wasted time and effort, I make this last post for the closure and education of others.
 
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