TROUBLE while on Road Trip w BORROWED 2000 Jetta 1.9 TDI - need info!

fatmobile

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Since you hit a lot of big bumps just before this started, maybe the injection pump plug should be unplugged and then plugged back together.
Check the contacts and wires while you are at it.
 

RTIII

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2000 Jetta 1.9L TDI
Since you hit a lot of big bumps just before this started, maybe the injection pump plug should be unplugged and then plugged back together.
Check the contacts and wires while you are at it.
Thanks, fatmobile, that's just what I was also thinking: Maybe ALL the electrical connectors can use a re-seating! However, I'm just so clueless when it comes to which part is what, and how the plugs work...

I presume "the injection pump" is the rather complex component that feeds each individual cylinder its fuel - it's not in front of me now but I'd suppose it's got an electrical connector to it I'll need to muck with.

When I ask about oddball connectors, the previous -weird-to-me- hose clamp recently discussed upthread is an example. And, I know it's different, I'm working on my very first fuel-injection effort (a design I'm co-inventing with a friend / colleague) where I'm converting a Porsche 912 engine (for my camper I'd have taken instead of this Jetta if it was only ready yet!), and I know that my "Megasquirt" build has some connectors with VERY WEIRD wire bails that you pull sideways OR squeeze but don't remove to remove and reconnect the connector from its receptical on the part in question. Any of that here? (There's that weird hose clamp clip just under discussion as a simple example of what can appear to the novice as oddball stuff.)

I suppose there's no reason NOT to go one-by-one through all the electrical connections in the engine bay and disconnect and re-seat them - engine OFF of course! Anything weird to look out for / be aware of?
 

RTIII

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TRYING to reseat wiring to fuel distributor pump, but it won't come off?! I don't want to break it - tricks? Just pull like hell?


While at it, I took these other photos, both in hopes someone would tell me which is which, and also to perhaps give some guidance on disconnecting these old plastic electrical connections without damaging anything.

I started with the air inflow - one of these has to be the "air mass" measurement, right? ...Anyway, mostly from left to right, front to rear (for an overall view, please see previous images I loaded):

Air feed at filter:

Air feed to ducting headed to turbo:

The leftmost control valve, function unknown to me, mounted to the "far left" (~8 inches from center) of the firewall:

Control valve mounted at almost the dead-center of the firewall, also function unknown to me:

And finally, an unmounted control valve at the right of center, and a larger diameter hose connects it to the intake manifold via a port labeled "out" (air mass measurement?) :

MEANWHILE...

I just cleaned off hopefully the remaining 2" or so of rainfall that fell, wetting the carport where the car is waiting for me to fix it... And when it's dry I'll venture underneath to see if I can reseat the intercooler's air hose(s) better. (See previous pics.)
 
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jmodge

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Until you accept the fact that you need to do some reading and learn to troubleshoot your turbo controls you most likely aren’t going to gain any ground. You might as well just drive it the way it is
 

dieseldonato

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Your p code Indicates a rather specific fault with the injection pump. Rummaging around the other systems isn't going to help any.
It would be the first picture center and outer plug and wiring you should be looking at. Which connector specifically I'm not sure. Opens or shorts looking for broken or bare wires. The fault could also be inside the injection pump, but honestly with out a vag specific scan tool, a wiring diagram and a multi meter your peeing in the wind at this point.
I understand your eagerness to rectify the issue, but in reality you don't possess the tools to properly diagnose and remedy the issue.
 

RTIII

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NOLA
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2000 Jetta 1.9L TDI
Your p code Indicates a rather specific fault with the injection pump. Rummaging around the other systems isn't going to help any.
Just trying to head off other potentials just waiting to happen, but thanks for pointing out it's likely unnecessary.

It would be the first picture center and outer plug and wiring you should be looking at. Which connector specifically I'm not sure. Opens or shorts looking for broken or bare wires.
I followed them and it's the one most forward in the car, foreground in the image. The wires look quite good. If I could get the connector off and reseat it, that'd be great but I've already pulled hard on it and without knowing that there's no locking feature I'm ignorant of, I don't want to proceed. It is, after all, made with 23 year old plastic (and other materials) that may very well be quite brittle - I'm not looking forward to proving the point!

The fault could also be inside the injection pump, but honestly with out a vag specific scan tool, a wiring diagram and a multi meter your peeing in the wind at this point.
I understand your eagerness to rectify the issue, but in reality you don't possess the tools to properly diagnose and remedy the issue.
And I appreciate that you perceive my situation better than some others. However, there's little else productive I can do with my time at the moment. I _do_ have an appointment with a shop I think can fix it (and the owner will pay for it) but that's not until Thursday that they even begin and I'm completely stuck without a functional car burning money without being able to make any. ... And since you brought it up, I DO have a multi-meter with me, which I brought to help with dealing with my sister's problems, not this car (!!), but without some solid info on what to do with it, well... -shrug-

One thing I CAN do (while I have an internet connection for a couple of hours), is research on the net. Trouble is, I didn't find very much in the way of wiring diagrams and so forth, as you point out. And not even knowing all the names of things is a handicap. ...I suppose I should have ordered a Bentley manual back when this first occurred, but now? But then, as you suggest, buying a VWAG specific scan tool isn't anything I'd likely have considered, so maybe not buying the manual was a reasonable call.
 

jmodge

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A manual will not help you. The only way you, or anyone else is going to figure out what is wrong, is with the proper scan tool. VCDS. One thing comes to mind, though I wouldn’t trust the scan tool you used unless someone on this site can verify it works on a TDI. But if your cold start injector stuck advanced you would have a very rough idle and a hard time getting going, similar to losing boost. If that is the case, don’t drive it. But without VCDS all you can do is guess and fire up the parts cannon. That’s why I’m strongly suggesting you verify the turbo controls function. Two reasons, it’s the most common cause of lack of power, and to either verify or rule it out. Without VCDS you would need a boost gauge, a tee, and a vacuum pump.
I’ll give you one more piece of advice you would be wise to follow. Whoever you are taking to, ask them if they have vcds. If they don’t all they will do is throw parts at it until they hit the bullseye. At that point you might be better putting it in storage and renting a car.
 

jmodge

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A manual will not help you. The only way you, or anyone else is going to figure out what is wrong, is with the proper scan tool. VCDS. One thing comes to mind, though I wouldn’t trust the scan tool you used unless someone on this site can verify it works on a TDI. But if your cold start injector stuck advanced you would have a very rough idle and a hard time getting going, similar to losing boost. If that is the case, don’t drive it. But without VCDS all you can do is guess and fire up the parts cannon. That’s why I’m strongly suggesting you verify the turbo controls function. Two reasons, it’s the most common cause of lack of power, and to either verify or rule it out. Without VCDS you would need a boost gauge, a tee, and a vacuum pump.
I’ll give you one more piece of advice you would be wise to follow. Whoever you are taking to, ask them if they have vcds. If they don’t all they will do is throw parts at it until they hit the bullseye. At that point you might be better putting it in storage and renting a car.
 

Nevada_TDI

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I have gone through twice, and don't see if you have checked the vacuum in the hoses at the farthest point from the vacuum pump yet
The solenoids may look good but have a a crack in them big enough to lose vacuum all the way across the engine.
So if you are not getting at least 22" of vacuum at the far end, the problem is not the hoses at this point.
 

jmodge

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I have gone through twice, and don't see if you have checked the vacuum in the hoses at the farthest point from the vacuum pump yet
The solenoids may look good but have a a crack in them big enough to lose vacuum all the way across the engine.
So if you are not getting at least 22" of vacuum at the far end, the problem is not the hoses at this point.
I gave him the first step in troubleshooting, which required no tool. For whatever reason I don’t think he checked it.
 

RTIII

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A manual will not help you. The only way you, or anyone else is going to figure out what is wrong, is with the proper scan tool. VCDS. One thing comes to mind, though I wouldn’t trust the scan tool you used unless someone on this site can verify it works on a TDI. But if your cold start injector stuck advanced you would have a very rough idle and a hard time getting going, similar to losing boost. If that is the case, don’t drive it.
Useful, thanks. So far, I've driven it as little as possible, which is NOT AT ALL since, oh, I think it was Saturday over a week ago.

What's the short answer - aside from "it gets expensive" - of what goes wrong if I were to drive it? (The guy doesn't mind, but his wife is NOT HAPPY with this car here, so he tends to side with her for marital reasons - time's running out; being able to say something specific could be useful.)

I have a lot of the proverbial cards stacked against me but I'm not (usually) stupid, just ill prepared for this. Even the nomenclature is unfamiliar and a challenge.

Just to save some space here, I FULLY AGREE any shop needs to have the proper scan tool, know how to use it.

I have gone through twice, and don't see if you have checked the vacuum in the hoses at the farthest point from the vacuum pump yet
The solenoids may look good but have a a crack in them big enough to lose vacuum all the way across the engine.
So if you are not getting at least 22" of vacuum at the far end, the problem is not the hoses at this point.
Thanks, Nevada_TDI; I don't have any tools to check vacuum but maybe my own lips, etc, but your point is still useful as that's perhaps the second most important thing to check.

As for how to check the turbo's function, I perhaps didn't understand how to check the arm that controls the variable vanes (right expression?) for function, or anything else about them. I'm a complete novice with most any car younger than, say, 1975, with a few minor exceptions. (However, put me in my element, such as blueprinting the pistons, crank, etc, etc, well, there I'm a quite accomplished engine builder! Got a four-camshaft Carerra engine from, oh, 1955 to '65? Like, say, this one... I'm your guy!)
 

Nevada_TDI

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You can always findthat the farthest section of the vacuum hose and see if it will stay stuck to your finger, if not, start searching start checking for vacuum leaks at the solenoids. A cheap vacuum gauge could be of help.
You could always use your mouth to generate vacuum; the actuator will move a small amount, In the past did that myself.
Get an "extra" section of vacuum house and suck on the solenoids inputs to see if they quickly lose vacuum or not. If even one does not hold vacuum that is good place to start. Ben there, done that.
 

jmodge

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If the advance mechanism in the pump is stuck, possible hitting bumps and knocking crud or loose, the fuel will detonate sooner. Engine will shake and the early combustion will hammer everything that rotates. The engine will become considerably louder and rougher, especially if advanced to the pumps limit. But VCDS is needed to confirm that.
If you start the car and confirm vacuum close to the pump, let it run for a minute or so to fill the vacuum canister. Shut it down and grab a mirror or whatever it takes to view the turbo actuator. Have someone turn the key on but don’t start the engine. The ecu will call for the vanes to close momentarily while starting. Once started the vanes open and remain that way until boost is called for. The resting position is vanes open, no boost. Boost is called for by applying vacuum to the canister on the turbo which closes the vanes. Vacuum is regulated by a pulse width electrical signal from the ecu to the boost solenoid. If you locate the vacuum hose on the turbo and follow it backwards it will take you to the boost solenoid.
So, run that simple test to see if the actuator moves upon ignition key on first. Simple test no tool needed and let me know what it does
 

braddies

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At least your buddy has new vacuum lines on his car now, found this diagram but there's some you tube videos of how to push the connector and clip off the sensor
 
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STDOUBT

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Harrowing tale. I'll risk muddying the waters since OP is treading water at this point.
Just FYI the code P1252 is not recognized by VDCS. Not sure it's accurate.
RTIII I didn't see where you verified proper seating for ALL the boost pipes coming off the turbo cold side (passenger).
I'm talking from the turbo the up to the front through the intercooler, up to the top of the bay to the elbow into the intake manifold.
 

STDOUBT

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Oh, a long-shot idea maybe, but sounds similar to your scanner's code
might need a mirror for this, but check the insulated wiring under the injection pump for damage or oil-fouling:

When mine went bad, the engine went into underfueling-mode and sounded pretty rough.
Had to drive it home about 80 miles.
The code I got for that was "Commencement of injection valve (N108)" - P0216
 

pudman2003

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Harrowing tale. I'll risk muddying the waters since OP is treading water at this point.
Just FYI the code P1252 is not recognized by VDCS. Not sure it's accurate.
RTIII I didn't see where you verified proper seating for ALL the boost pipes coming off the turbo cold side (passenger).
I'm talking from the turbo the up to the front through the intercooler, up to the top of the bay to the elbow into the intake manifold.
In short, everything was fine until I got to the pot-hole capital of the USA (New Orleans) and after repeated shocks from unseen road damage, there were new rattling noises but it still ran fine. Then a day or three later, the engine suddenly lost most power and sounds like a diesel truck! I stopped driving it, though it did take me around 8, maybe 10 miles to park it until I could deal with it.


STDOUBT
Hit the nail on the head!
 

P2B

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Just FYI the code P1252 is not recognized by VDCS. Not sure it's accurate.
P1252 is known to VCDS, I have seen it a few times accompanied by the OP's symptoms - but it does seem to be missing from the VCDS wiki.

I once fixed this temporarily by running diesel purge in conjunction with the N108 output test, but the symptoms returned after a few hundred km. Ended up replacing the IP with a used one.

 

jmodge

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Should also try the actuator test while starting the car. The actuator lever will rest away from the stop screw with key off. The lever will momentarily be pulled by the vacuum actuator against the set screw and return back once started.
 

RTIII

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FANTASTIC feedback folks! YOU PEOPLE ARE WONDERFUL! :D I wish I had another day - today's "lost" because of a few key factors like rain coming earlier than forecast and flooding out the work spot. But MAYBE I can get some work in this afternoon or early evening.

You can always find that the farthest section of the vacuum hose and see if ...
Yes, SOLID practical advice, thanks! I DID buy some extra hose - nearly all the stuff on there from before was completely shot, or at least I deemed not trustworthy.

If the advance mechanism in the pump is stuck, possible hitting bumps and knocking crud or loose, the fuel will detonate sooner. Engine will shake and the early combustion will hammer everything that rotates. [...]
It's been rare but I've experienced predetonation in gasoline engines before and know how quickly it can destroy an engine. (I lost a Porsche 912 engine - the one in my camper - ones due to such low octane fuel that the people at the State of Texas who "regulate" octane declared was "below the ability of our equipment to measure", and when asked how low that was, they said, "75 RON." And that's why I'm rebuilding it as a fuel injection engine!)

Your comments give specifics and therefore I can better defend to my friend's wife there's a good reason not to be driving it at all until the status is known.

[...] So, run that simple test to see if the actuator moves upon ignition key on first. Simple test no tool needed and let me know what it does
Thank you again for this, and this time I think I actually understand the test!

So, that's the plan, though I have no helper at the moment. MAYBE later today I can get help. Tomorrow, I get up at 6AM to use a borrowed car to drive into Mississippi to fix my sister's well pump, and maybe help with some other minor issues, so TODAY is the best day to get on it.

At least your buddy has new vacuum lines on his car now, found this diagram but there's some you tube videos of how to push the connector and clip off the sensor
HOLLY COW! THANKS! If I'd found that diagram previously, I'd have been able to do this work so much more confidently and so forth. And, with it I can double-check that I didn't introduce any errors in my work.

Harrowing tale. I'll risk muddying the waters since OP is treading water at this point.
No worries, here, and yes, "harrowing" is a fair description. ... I have a friend here in NOLA who keeps saying, "you're on vacation!" and I have to keep mentioning, "this doesn't feel like any kind of vacation!"

Just FYI the code P1252 is not recognized by VDCS. Not sure it's accurate.
RTIII I didn't see where you verified proper seating for ALL the boost pipes coming off the turbo cold side (passenger).
I'm talking from the turbo the up to the front through the intercooler, up to the top of the bay to the elbow into the intake manifold.
Thank you for ANOTHER great diagram and the other data it contains - and yes, that looks pretty close to what I've got here.

As for verifying the seating, I've begun that job but haven't finished it yet. ... The parts don't seem to want to move AT ALL! But completing the job is on my list for this afternoon. My bet, though, is that there's no boost happening at all and one of these other issues is the primary cause.

P1252 is known to VCDS, I have seen it a few times accompanied by the OP's symptoms - but it does seem to be missing from the VCDS wiki.

I once fixed this temporarily by running diesel purge in conjunction with the N108 output test, but the symptoms returned after a few hundred km. Ended up replacing the IP with a used one.
I don't yet know about the N108 test, and the distance I need to go is a few thousand km, but it's nice to know there's a relatively reasonable temporary fix available.

...The site is telling me there are more posts, so I'll post this now and then take a look!
 

RTIII

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NOLA
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2000 Jetta 1.9L TDI
Should also try the actuator test while starting the car. The actuator lever will rest away from the stop screw with key off. The lever will momentarily be pulled by the vacuum actuator against the set screw and return back once started.
Thanks for this, again, I think! ... I'm not confident I know where the lever is, but you gave some info before - I'll look for that and, then look around. I do have a small mirror on a short arm I can use to look into hidden spaces... I'm guessing that's a key tool to be using!

The rain is getting lighter and maybe it'll stop soon so I can work.
 

RTIII

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YES! I have a helper who can help me do the testing! ... He doesn't have a lot of time, but the tests don't sound too hard or time consuming either! He's on his way over. I SHOULD have internet access from there and will bring my 'puter.
 

RTIII

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2000 Jetta 1.9L TDI
Is the "actuator lever" pictured here? Item 40 maybe?


Turbo actuator used vacuum to control boost
Is the actuator lever key item 40 in this image?

OH crap, the rain came back! Maybe I can't get the work done today after all, but I'm trying!
 

jmodge

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The actuator lever is on the turbo itself, as well as the actuator. It’s a vacuum canister with a threaded rod coming out and it attaches to the lever. You would have attached a vacuum hose to it. If you’re still up on jacks the best way to see it may be from underneath. Google “ALH vnt15 function “
N108 is an advance mechanism within the pump itself. The test to cycle it’s range is done with VCDS only. The flush is done by a procedure where you divorce the pump from it’s fuel supply and run it straight on a cleaner called LiquiMoly Diesel purge. It’s a bit of a procedure, quite a few of us have done it. There is a video online. One of our cars had that issue, cleared it up and it is still running today some two years later.
If you find the boost to be working, the N108 may very well be your problem. At that point I would be inclined to trailer it home if I were in your shoes. Meaning no tools, no VCDS, no experience on TDI’s.
 

braddies

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The hose that runs to the turbo actuator is the one that goes down the air intake towards the passenger wheel, clips onto the turbo intake pipe in a few places along its way down to the turbo actuator.
And looking under the injection pump for chafed wires and back to the harnesses the pump connects to, reseating those and looking for corrosion while you're in there
 

RTIII

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I just performed the test.

Given a tiny mirror, I just put my hand on it, watching not to get pinched or put any mechanical force on it, just monitor motion.

The actuator lever is on the turbo itself, as well as the actuator. It’s a vacuum canister with a threaded rod coming out and it attaches to the lever. You would have attached a vacuum hose to it.
Yes, and because the turbo was replaced recently, that hose was modern rubber and not the original cloth braided stuff, and was in perfect condition so I left it alone.

If you’re still up on jacks the best way to see it may be from underneath. Google “ALH vnt15 function “
Indeed, I had it up in the air still, with a house jack taking the stead of a jack stand - this IS New Orleans, after all, with all the houses elevated WAY above grade!

AH, as I type, the rains are back, and about to put a flow of water where I just had my back on the ground!

TEST RESULTS:

The actuator lever only actuates when the engine was running and even after a minute of running was NOT able to move position when the key was turned from off to on just after having been run.

I think I did the test correctly?

That is: Start it, it moves to a new position. In that position it just sits while running (at idle). When off, it returns to the original position. Then turning the ignition on without starting does nothing at all.

I ran the test multiple times - same results each time.

N108 is an advance mechanism within the pump itself. The test to cycle it’s range is done with VCDS only.
OK, so nothing I can do myself now.

The flush is done by a procedure where you divorce the pump from it’s fuel supply and run it straight on a cleaner called LiquiMoly Diesel purge. It’s a bit of a procedure, quite a few of us have done it. There is a video online. One of our cars had that issue, cleared it up and it is still running today some two years later.
Fascinating. And that's a nice fix, too - just a good cleaning, I gather?

If you find the boost to be working, the N108 may very well be your problem. At that point I would be inclined to trailer it home if I were in your shoes. Meaning no tools, no VCDS, no experience on TDI’s.
I understand your position - not crazy at all. I've been talking with the owner but he's been unavailable for a day or two. But there's a second problem; the trailer I was towing - it's worth more than the car!
 

RTIII

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2000 Jetta 1.9L TDI
[...] And looking under the injection pump for chafed wires and back to the harnesses the pump connects to, reseating those and looking for corrosion while you're in there
I did that, yes, and it all looks great BUT, I was unable to remove the electrical connectors; I'd do it NOW if only I knew how!
 

jmodge

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Yes, That sounds right, I’m not sure it works without the engine running. I haven’t dinked with any of our turbos in quite a while. But the lever will go up against the setscrew, back off slightly and stay partly closed while idling. Then return to the rest position, away from the setscrew, when the key is off. So, that particular function appears ok, at least viewed by text
 
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