Transmission with marbles in a can

SilverWagon

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Feb 19, 2011
Location
California
TDI
2003 Jetta
I took my 2015 Golf TDI SEL into the dealership a week ago because I would hear a weird rattling noise when coasting in first or second gear. The rattle is metallic like and it sounds like marbles in a can.

The dealership had three different techs inspect the vehicle and they couldn't determine what the sound was. They said that it was coming from the transmission but didn't know what it was. They got a hold of the VW techline and said that they were going to wait for a district manager to come and drive the car.

I don't believe that anyone actually came to drive the car but the dealership ultimately called me and said that the only way to tell what is wrong is to open up the transmission. They're telling me that it's going to cost $1,400 for labor to tear down the transmission and put it back together again. If during that tear down they find that it's a manufacturer defect they will cover it under warranty. If not, I pay for labor and parts.

Considering it's cheaper to use a third-party mechanic I thought I would ask you guys what you would do in this situation.
 
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ProfBrown

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Jan 16, 2019
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So Cal
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2015 GSW SE DSG
Do you have the 2 year unlimited mile warranty when they were pushing the CPO TDIs?


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SilverWagon

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2003 Jetta
Yes, but I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. They said that I have to let them do the investigation. He said that if I take the car to a third-party mechanic what they find won't be considered warrantable. They're basically saying that I have to risk paying for the diagnostic if the clutch assembly has failed due to driver abuse. Unfortunately I'm the second owner of this vehicle.
 

SilverWagon

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California
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2003 Jetta
Yes. I would not buy a auto with a dual-clutch. I've heard way too many bad things about the reliability and that they're expensive to replace repair
 

ProfBrown

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So Cal
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2015 GSW SE DSG
Ahh gotcha. I had assumed it was a DSG being an SEL trim level.

For what it’s worth, I am not really a fan of autos either, but the DSG in these cars is pretty good. Tuning could use some work, but seems strong and reliable.

Good luck brother with whatever decision you make.


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turbobrick240

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maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I think it's more likely that the rattling is caused by a failing dual mass flywheel.
 

abishoff

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May 12, 2015
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Wylie, TX
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2015 Passat TDI SEL
I don’t understand why it matters how the problem was cause. If you have full coverage on the drivetrain, shouldn’t it be covered? Even if it’s a clutch or flywheel, which are technically “wareable” items, they shouldn’t be disintegrating.


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15TDICommuter

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Jan 6, 2019
Location
South Florida
TDI
2015 GSW
Yes, but I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. They said that I have to let them do the investigation. He said that if I take the car to a third-party mechanic what they find won't be considered warrantable. They're basically saying that I have to risk paying for the diagnostic if the clutch assembly has failed due to driver abuse. Unfortunately I'm the second owner of this vehicle.

How could they say its driver abuse?

I also thought the CPO carried a small deductable which was the diagnostic fee?

MY 2015 also will get chattery when at the 15mph mark in a parking lot, as if it can't decide shifting up into 2nd or leaving it in 1st with light pedal input. In 2nd it would be bogged down, but I've got learned to pop it into sport mode and let it wind up rather than go for the shift. If I miss it or forget that its going to hop around the shift, at quick jab and hold will shift it up and accelerate. Or just coast at a slower speed to let it shift down and hold first with no peddle input.
 

ProfBrown

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Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Location
So Cal
TDI
2015 GSW SE DSG
How could they say its driver abuse?

I also thought the CPO carried a small deductable which was the diagnostic fee?

MY 2015 also will get chattery when at the 15mph mark in a parking lot, as if it can't decide shifting up into 2nd or leaving it in 1st with light pedal input. In 2nd it would be bogged down, but I've got learned to pop it into sport mode and let it wind up rather than go for the shift. If I miss it or forget that its going to hop around the shift, at quick jab and hold will shift it up and accelerate. Or just coast at a slower speed to let it shift down and hold first with no peddle input.


I agree on the deductible fee. That should be brought up.

OPs car is a stick shift not a DSG.


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Lightflyer1

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Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
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2015 Beetle tdi dsg
I guess you are finding the manual trans aren't all that cheap either. The clutch can be compromised by abuse and would not be covered. Someone who rides the clutch all the time or does rocket launches constantly would tear up the clutch and not be considered normal. If you want the dealer to do warranty work you will have to take your chances with them. I would bet it is the DMF that is doing this and a clutch job would more than likely take care of it. I would consider having one of our trusted mechanics look it over. Check the list.
 

SilverWagon

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Location
California
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2003 Jetta
How could they say its driver abuse?

I also thought the CPO carried a small deductable which was the diagnostic fee?

MY 2015 also will get chattery when at the 15mph mark in a parking lot, as if it can't decide shifting up into 2nd or leaving it in 1st with light pedal input. In 2nd it would be bogged down, but I've got learned to pop it into sport mode and let it wind up rather than go for the shift. If I miss it or forget that its going to hop around the shift, at quick jab and hold will shift it up and accelerate. Or just coast at a slower speed to let it shift down and hold first with no peddle input.
I've never been charged a deductible. I don't I think there is a deductible.

They are telling me that they have to tear the transmission apart to diagnose the problem. When they diagnose the problem is when it is determined who has to pay to fix the vehicle. The dealership understands that Volkswagen won't pay them if the malfunction is due to driver wear.
 

SilverWagon

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Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Location
California
TDI
2003 Jetta
I guess you are finding the manual trans aren't all that cheap either. The clutch can be compromised by abuse and would not be covered. Someone who rides the clutch all the time or does rocket launches constantly would tear up the clutch and not be considered normal. If you want the dealer to do warranty work you will have to take your chances with them. I would bet it is the DMF that is doing this and a clutch job would more than likely take care of it. I would consider having one of our trusted mechanics look it over. Check the list.
Before buying this car I called local transmission shops asking what it would cost to rebuild an automatic dual clutch transmission. They said that it would cost 3,000 plus dollars. Manual transmissions don't fail like automatic transmissions. It's usually just a flywheel or clutch replacement. From my research a stage 2 clutch and flywheel will cost $800 in parts. Labor to install that in San Diego should cost me six to seven hundred dollars.
 

ProfBrown

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Jan 16, 2019
Location
So Cal
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2015 GSW SE DSG
Before buying this car I called local transmission shops asking what it would cost to rebuild an automatic dual clutch transmission. They said that it would cost 3,000 plus dollars. Manual transmissions don't fail like automatic transmissions. It's usually just a flywheel or clutch replacement. From my research a stage 2 clutch and flywheel will cost $800 in parts. Labor to install that in San Diego should cost me six to seven hundred dollars.


How many DSGs are they actually seeing in the shop? And specifically of your year/generation? I know some of the previous DSGs like pre 2010 if not earlier had some issues. But from what I’ve read, with proper maintenance, the DSG is a beef cake. The clutch packs like their clean fluid. It’s essentially a manual trans that shifts automatically. Not necessarily as complex as a normal auto trans, least once a simple dumbed down video j saw on YouTube explaining how it goes through the gears. But the bonus of it being a manual shifted automatically, is it has the strength that goes alone with the mechanics of a manual.


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JM Popaleetus

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Connecticut
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Signature.
Find a different dealer. Unless you damaged the clutch doing launches and/or have a tune, I can’t imagine them finding you at fault.
 

redbarron55

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Joined
Jul 10, 2010
Location
Navarre, FL.
TDI
2012 Touareg TDI Executive
If a DSG the rattling is probably the DMF.
I had that problem with a 2009 JSW.
VW should warranty this for you if you can get one to admit the problem.
Either way Manual or Auto it still sounds like a DMF problem,
I think that there is a way to look at the flywheel and see it there is play in it (in neutral)
If there is then a spring had broken and failed.
Replace the flywheel.
 

SilverWagon

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Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Location
California
TDI
2003 Jetta
How many DSGs are they actually seeing in the shop? And specifically of your year/generation? I know some of the previous DSGs like pre 2010 if not earlier had some issues. But from what I’ve read, with proper maintenance, the DSG is a beef cake. The clutch packs like their clean fluid. It’s essentially a manual trans that shifts automatically. Not necessarily as complex as a normal auto trans, least once a simple dumbed down video j saw on YouTube explaining how it goes through the gears. But the bonus of it being a manual shifted automatically, is it has the strength that goes alone with the mechanics of a manual.


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The shops that I called said that they don't specifically have a lot of DSG Volkswagen Transmissions coming in. They said that because it's fairly new that the lower end vehicles are installing dual clutch automatics in vehicles that are not Ferraris they're starting to see them. They did say that in general these dual-clutch automatics cost more to repair then the previous automatic transmissions. Does that have to do with the parts and more labor? I don't know but I would assume there is a learning curve and that they would charge for that extra time. One shop said that it cost upwards of $7,000 to have a dual clutch automatic repaired. I don't remember the manufacturer. It seems to me that if they are correct the dual-clutch automatic are best suited for someone who can afford a Ferrari when it comes to the transmission

I'm bias though. I don't think that a car can be considered a sports car without having a manual transmission. At what point is the car controlling the car rather than the driver? Its worse when it comes to the EV cars like a tesla. It's like playing Gran Turismo.
 

SilverWagon

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Location
California
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2003 Jetta
If a DSG the rattling is probably the DMF.
I had that problem with a 2009 JSW.
VW should warranty this for you if you can get one to admit the problem.
Either way Manual or Auto it still sounds like a DMF problem,
I think that there is a way to look at the flywheel and see it there is play in it (in neutral)
If there is then a spring had broken and failed.
Replace the flywheel.
it's a manual. At this point Im thinking of just going to find a shop who will install an aftermarket stage 2 single mass flywheel with a full clutch assembly. I don't think ill have a problem with the the trans for almost the life of the car, except for transmission fluid changes, after I do that.

I asked vw if they found it to be a manufacturer defect, I could take home the new oem clutch assembly and use the warranty paid for labor to install an aftermarket hour and and they said no.
 

nathanso

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Mar 31, 2019
Location
Redwood City, CA
TDI
2015 GSW TDI S 6M
The noise you're describing sounds more like loose pieces in the bell housing; not anything inside the trany proper which is oil-filled. Other posters here have experienced damage to this trany's steel syncros soon after changing to a single mass flywheel so proceed with caution.
 

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
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Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
I haven't read anywhere yet where a DSG had to actually be rebuilt. Clutches and servos yes, total rebuild no. So what you are stating has little value as to what the rebuilders said. I would buy a good used one and have it swapped before paying $7k for a rebuild. I would guess the cost between clutch replacement wouldn't be all that different between the two.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
it's a manual. At this point Im thinking of just going to find a shop who will install an aftermarket stage 2 single mass flywheel with a full clutch assembly. I don't think ill have a problem with the the trans for almost the life of the car, except for transmission fluid changes, after I do that. .

Yeah, don't do that. Single mass flywheels and the 02Q trans. do not get along. Typically they last about 10k miles after the smf swap and then the synchros crumble.
 

SilverWagon

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California
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2003 Jetta
I haven't read anywhere yet where a DSG had to actually be rebuilt. Clutches and servos yes, total rebuild no. So what you are stating has little value as to what the rebuilders said. I would buy a good used one and have it swapped before paying $7k for a rebuild. I would guess the cost between clutch replacement wouldn't be all that different between the two.
That very well could be. Like I said, the shops that I spoke with were speaking about all manufacturers of dual-clutch automatic Transmissions. There wasn't a shop that I spoke with who had a lot of experience specifically dealing with vw DSG Transmissions.
 

SilverWagon

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Yeah, don't do that. Single mass flywheels and the 02Q trans. do not get along. Typically they last about 10k miles after the smf swap and then the synchros crumble.
Thanks for the info. I haven't read that anywhere but I'll keep an eye out. That changes my planned solution if that's the case. Can you send me a link to the thread?
 
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SilverWagon

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2003 Jetta
The noise you're describing sounds more like loose pieces in the bell housing; not anything inside the trany proper which is oil-filled. Other posters here have experienced damage to this trany's steel syncros soon after changing to a single mass flywheel so proceed with caution.

Speech to text error in edited reply

Would Volkswagen consider what's in the bellhousing a wear part?

I did a search to find more comments on synchros going bad with a single Mass flywheel. Can you link me to one?
 
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ProfBrown

Veteran Member
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Jan 16, 2019
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So Cal
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2015 GSW SE DSG
The shops that I called said that they don't specifically have a lot of DSG Volkswagen Transmissions coming in. They said that because it's fairly new that the lower end vehicles are installing dual clutch automatics in vehicles that are not Ferraris they're starting to see them. They did say that in general these dual-clutch automatics cost more to repair then the previous automatic transmissions. Does that have to do with the parts and more labor? I don't know but I would assume there is a learning curve and that they would charge for that extra time. One shop said that it cost upwards of $7,000 to have a dual clutch automatic repaired. I don't remember the manufacturer. It seems to me that if they are correct the dual-clutch automatic are best suited for someone who can afford a Ferrari when it comes to the transmission



I'm bias though. I don't think that a car can be considered a sports car without having a manual transmission. At what point is the car controlling the car rather than the driver? Its worse when it comes to the EV cars like a tesla. It's like playing Gran Turismo.


Sorry lagging on replying. The DSG trans has been out for over 15 years... if they are just starting to see them it’s not the DSGs they are seeing. I know some of the early DSGs had issues with their servo or something if they nature, but not these late model ones. I get your point, manuals can be better but not always. Certain platforms have equal issues, while others one is a clear winner.

Regardless, the modern DSG is a stout gearbox, and plenty strong. Just likes it’s fluid changes on a regular 40k basis. And any tuning issues one has with it can be fixed with some good tuning.

Hope you find your issue and a fix for said issue quickly and cheaply my friend.


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740GLE

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NH
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2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
My guess, is this dealer also a Ford dealer, maybe the SA used to work at a ford dealership? The Getrag 6sp DCT of the focus/fiesta has been horrible and many a lawsuits have been brought up, they are applying their previous experience.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_PowerShift_transmission

DSG is in every auto GTI and R and GLI since 2010sih? The numbers of them on the street and rolling into VW dealers would raise flags for the dealers comments.

Either way you have a 6Spd MT with what i'd guess is a failling DMF. I'd bet dollars to donuts if youd be stupid enough to pay the dealer to open it up and investigate, they will come back 100% operator abuse, (heck, I bet they already have their mind made up and just trying to milk a golden cow), they'll say excessive bluing on the pressure plate, excessive heat yadda yadda yadda, even though the pressure plate prob is 100% within spec.

I'd run and find another dealer or just pony up the coin and do it out of pocket at some indy shop that'll prob cost you $1500.


BTW you found the one weakness of a MT, the dealer is 99% more likely to blame you for the failure yet that can almost never happen if a DMF on a DSG. Again the number of slipping 6MT clutches on GTIs and R's see this as another cash cow.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Dec 11, 2001
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outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
If it has an internal problem in the gearbox itself, draining and examining the fluid will determine that much. Manuals rarely have stuff break inside them without sending a bunch of metal particles into the fluid.

Your description does not help much, but the typical manifestations of a bad DMF on a manual car are bad vibration, especially at idle (they can almost feel like the engine has a dead cylinder), and/or bad rattles at idle, bad chatter on takeoff upon releasing the clutch pedal...often FELT in the clutch pedal, as well as difficulty changing gears or engaging a gear unless the engine is shut off.

If you are sitting still, with the engine running, transmission in neutral, is there any noise or vibration? If you press the clutch in, do you feel anything abnormal? With the clutch depressed, engine still at idle, vehicle not moving, can you engage any and all gears? Any changes when you do? When you engage a gear with the engine running but the car not moving, NOTHING inside the transmission is spinning or moving or doing anything. Because the wheels ---> output shaft ---> input shaft are all locked together. The only thing moving at that point is the flywheel itself, and the pressure plate. The disc is also not moving, as it is rigidly attached via the splines to the input shaft.
 

SilverWagon

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Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Location
California
TDI
2003 Jetta
Sorry lagging on replying. The DSG trans has been out for over 15 years... if they are just starting to see them it’s not the DSGs they are seeing. I know some of the early DSGs had issues with their servo or something if they nature, but not these late model ones. I get your point, manuals can be better but not always. Certain platforms have equal issues, while others one is a clear winner.

Regardless, the modern DSG is a stout gearbox, and plenty strong. Just likes it’s fluid changes on a regular 40k basis. And any tuning issues one has with it can be fixed with some good tuning.

Hope you find your issue and a fix for said issue quickly and cheaply my friend.


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This is the first time that I've learned anything about the manual transmission for my 2015 Golf. I'm already disappointed with how the stereo is integrated into everything. I would love to replace it because it's a POS even though it the high-end version for SEL vehicles.Now I'm learning that the transmission has Steel synchros that degrade after installing a single Mass flywheel. Disappointing.

Other than the handling, miles per gallon, and adequate power, I'm disappointed. I've owned three alh jetta's, all manual. I love those vehicles. They seem to be perfectly made for what I wanted.

After what you said about the DSG Transmissions I'm interested in looking more into them. My sister recently told me she needs a new car and I told her to get a TDI. She doesn't know how to drive stick and it would help if the transmission was reliable. Thanks
 

ProfBrown

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Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Location
So Cal
TDI
2015 GSW SE DSG
In my eyes the only real downsides is the factory head unit system is the screen size and no car play. What else is this system lacking in? Both of those can be fixed with upgrading to the MIB 2 I think it’s called system. Can be pricey though but people have done it.


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