Transmission for >4 cyl TDIs in rear drive?

mr.mindless

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2002 Galactic Blue Jetta GLS
I'm kicking around the idea of a TDI swap into a midsize pickup.

The only information I'm finding on doing TDI swaps for rear drive or 4x4 applications is with the 1.6 and 1.9 motors using Acme Adapter stuff and 'Yota transmissions. I have no problem with running a Toy transmission - my automatic may have bit the dust and that's why I'm kicking around the idea of this repower in the first place - or at least making changes now that might support a future swap.

I'm much more interested in a 5 cyl or V6 TDI, as I'd have to have a very hopped-up and perhaps "peaky" ALH to match the driveability and reliability of the 235hp/265ft-lb V8 that is in the truck now. Main use is offroading but it sees lots of street miles too.
 

TurbinePower

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The 5 and 6 cylinder TDi engines have the same bolt pattern as the VR6 and the old 5-cylinder gasoline and diesel engines, I know that much for sure.

5-cylinder's probably going to be easier to get a hold of, too. Of course, neither was ever imported into the US, so it's going to have to come from abroad in either case.
 

mr.mindless

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thanks! now to find a rear drive VR6 option....

EDIT: of which there unsurprisingly seem to be none. People only seem to put VR6s into VAG cars that are front or AWD using VAG transmissions. humbug... anyone else know of anything?
 
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TurbinePower

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The old Volvo 200 series were RWD, and they have transmissions and bellhousings that will mate up to the VW 5/6 cylinder bolt pattern.

You'd need the bellhousing for a D24 engine, that was the 6-cylinder diesel (That shares a bolt pattern with the five diesel, the 5 TDi, the V6 TDi...)

Edit: And on that note, take a look over at the Volvo 240 TDi thread in this section. Owner's swapping out the transmission, so that may give you some hints on something that will better take the power you want.
 
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shiva

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Jun 28, 2006
Problem with Volvo transmissions is that they are notoriously weak.

If you're looking for something mostly bolt-up, one option might be the volvo M90 transmission. They're expensive, and only avialable only in europe, and only some of them had diesel-friendly 5th gears. Also, some of them had different bolt patterns than others. It will be difficult to sort out which one you need (if any do in fact work), and even harder to find and have one shipped over. But it's a lead

Another option may be to use a Volvo 240 bellhousing that bolts up to the motor, and to get it adapted for a T5. There's a shop online that does this relatively cheaply. But it's not like T5s are particularly strong boxes themselves.

Then you have to worry about the flywheel and the pilot bearing. I don't know if the pilot bearing seat is in the crank on those motors... that could get annoying.

In any case, I'd say there's enough extra work that you're probably better off picking the ideal transmission based on strength, shifter location, availability and cost and getting an adapter made. If you find a box with an input shaft length similar to a corrado, volvo, or whatever rwd bellhousing will bolt up to the motor, the adapter can be skinny and very easy and cheap to make.
 

mr.mindless

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Thanks a lot for the bellhousing info, guys. I didn't know about the Volvo bolt pattern and that definitely sounds like the easiest place to start. If I ever go down this road I'll be sure to post up.
 

Pat Dolan

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Martensville, SK
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Just a few comments on bolt patterns and bellhousings:

The 4 cyl engines all share the same bolt pattern, but I can't for the life of me think of any RWD application that used them.....EXCEPT..the T3. Using either a T3/45 degree OEM bellhousing or a T3 aftermarket uprights you could then go adapter to T5 or something else common and relatively cheap.

Same applies to the 5 cyl engines. These have a different bolt pattern, and could be found in RSA T3s and the bellhousings are all over the place and set the engine at 15 degrees. Again, you need an adapter. The 924/944/968 bellhousing is another option. Keep in mind that all of the Porsche variants use a rear-mounted gearbox (the one in the link above is a "snail case" 924, one year only and a really bad choice - all others use a stock Audi gearbox).

The V6 TDI is a modular engine and shares the same bolt pattern as the 4.2 V8, so there is not much around to play with (so I am told).

If I were putting a diesel in a mid-sized pickup, a TDI would be about my very last choice (cost related..a 2.5 TDI sells for $6,500 over here). You can pick up an entire Toyota diesel and matching gearbox from mining trucks (diesel land cruiser derrivatives are very common in mining) for a pittance, and Toyota will support them (there were 5 cyls a while back, 6 cyl inlines now). Just find the wrecking yard where they retire them from each mine.

A much easier (but not se easy to find) choice would be the 4.3 GM V6 with corporate small bolt pattern (used in '80s J cars). This is essentially 3/4 of a 5.7, and is actually a very good engine. It bolts directly to any GM corporate small bellhousing, thus trans etc. Same for motor mounts...I THINK (remember, this was a front drive only engine). You need to go the the 5.7 sites to find supplies and support.

http://www.ensindustrial.ca/index.html
 

TurbinePower

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Pat Dolan said:
The V6 TDI is a modular engine and shares the same bolt pattern as the 4.2 V8, so there is not much around to play with (so I am told).
I have been told by at least two importers and a few unaffiliated individuals that the V6 TDi shares the VW/Audi 5-cylinder bolt pattern.
 

Pat Dolan

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TurbinePower said:
I have been told by at least two importers and a few unaffiliated individuals that the V6 TDi shares the VW/Audi 5-cylinder bolt pattern.
I want to find the guranteed answer to that question, since we were sold a 2.5/5cyl instead of the 2.5/V6 that we wanted based on that supposed fact. Since I don't have a V6 here to compare, I am sort of at a loss!
 

G60ING

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No TDIs Currently, I have an R36 Corrado. I've had an ALH Corrado swap, AHU Corrado swap and 2003 TDI Jetta
A cheaper way to verify the pattern is to order the sheetmetal backing plate for the motors that the trannies are on.
 

Pat Dolan

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G60ING said:
A cheaper way to verify the pattern is to order the sheetmetal backing plate for the motors that the trannies are on.
Except that Audis don't usually USE any sheet metal there.
 

shiva

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Jun 28, 2006
So the v6 tdi shares the same pattern as an audi v8? What about using an audi awd trans and locking (welding) the center diff?
 

Pat Dolan

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shiva said:
So the v6 tdi shares the same pattern as an audi v8? What about using an audi awd trans and locking (welding) the center diff?
Need to confirm WHICH bolt pattern, but if you were to do that, I think you will find that you can't just "weld the diff", but you would have to machine some kind of hardware to eliminate the center diff. Then, it becomes an issue of putting all of that torque through a drive path that was never meant for constant load (might not matter, might matter a lot). Seems a million times easier (and cheaper - just price out any ONE single part in a V8 or A8 trans...and then try to actually GET it) to just adapt a T5 to a VW bellhousing (if the trans input shaft will reach the clutch).
 

bhtooefr

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Unfortunately, even ETKA is being confusing here.

No parts are common.

I know the things are built on the gasser V6 architecture, but I can't be sure that the bellhousing is the same.

I'll send a PM to caddytd, he has a 2.5 V6. ;)
 

Pat Dolan

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bhtooefr said:
Unfortunately, even ETKA is being confusing here.

No parts are common.

I know the things are built on the gasser V6 architecture, but I can't be sure that the bellhousing is the same.

I'll send a PM to caddytd, he has a 2.5 V6. ;)
I got my hands on a V6 trans in Las Vegas last week, but didn't have a 5 cyl engine to compare it with (silly me, I should always carry one!). They look the same. Now I am REALLY curious!
 

bhtooefr

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The VR6 and 5-cyl use the same bellhousing, so you could always see if a VR6 will bolt up...
 

mr.mindless

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just though I'd add this tidbit
From: "Michael Maskalans"
To: <tech@acmeadapters.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 11:18 AM
Subject: TDI transmission options

After digging through the limited options and high prices for the
Cummins 4BT, I'm really considering a TDI swap in my Dakota. I've
already got an '02 Jetta 90hp ALH, and know a thing or two about these
mills which is very appealing (versus the unknown of a Nissan or Mitsu
diesel).

I'm wondering what sort of strength issues you may have seen in your
swaps. My most likely transmission candidate is a `91 Toyota manual
trans but if there's a stronger option out there I'd love to hear about
it. I like the transfer case options for the Toy setups...

The weakest TDI I'd consider would be an ALH like I already have, but
what I'd really like to do is a European PD130 or PD150. (It seems that
the I5 & v6 TDIs use a different and relatively unique bolt pattern) If
I source one of those, I'll probably be looking at almost 300 foot
pounds of torque. I'm sure your adaptor is up to it, but what is your
experience with the strength of the stuff that lives on the other side
of that adaptor plate? Will a stock Toy trans deal with that torque
pushing 40" tires?

Thanks for any insight,
--
Michael Maskalans

From: tech [mailto:tech@acmeadapters.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 18:23
To: Michael Maskalans
Subject: Re: TDI transmission options

Hi Michael,
The toughest transmission you can use with our adapters is the toyota. I have never seen any strength issues, I know of one with 42 inch tires in a samurai. We only offer adapters for the VW inline 4 cylinder watercooled family of engines and will not fit the 5 or 6 cylinder engines. There is alot more than the bellhousing bolt pattern that is different on the 5 and 6 cyl engines to adapt them to anything similar.

Originally these adapters were used in our suzuki applications for use with the 22R 4 cylinder style transmission 1979-1996, then over to toyota trucks.
At this time we only have the basic kit to mate the VW engine to the toyota
4 cylinder transmission, you will need to fabricate the other bracketry as needed. This kit enables you to reuse your original style toyota clutch set and starter. The clutch used with this kit is the earlier model 22R toyota
8-7/8 inch disc.

With this kit you receive the adapter plate, machined toyota flywheel, selflubricating oilite pilot bushing, bolting hardware and instructions.

These sell for $575 and includes shipping to USA addresses.

let me know if you have any other questions

Regards
Jeff Kerr
www.acmeadapters.com
VW Conversions for your Suzuki Samurai and Sidekick
"Because real trucks don't have spark plugs"
It's not set in stone yet but if I don't trip over a replacement stock application transmission for my truck, and continue to find Cummins 4bts with standard transmissions up in the $4000 neighborhood, this is not looking too bad at all.
 

deepmud

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Mar 13, 2006
Location
Alaska
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TDI-M in a Suzuki Samurai beast monster truck
Considering Toyota gearbox strength - there are adapter kits for 350 SBC to Toyota transmissions - it's considered "ok" as far as durability goes. Considering I had a turned up 1.9TD mounted to a Suzuki Samurai case that I could tuck under one arm, that only broke twice :D I think the 2 or 3 times strength of a Toyota trans a good option. There are ways to get an R151 (Turbo Pickup) trans to bolt up to a W56-adapter - I think - if you wanted a bit more beef.

Another example to consider is the Aisen trans in the Toyota is nearly the same as the Aisen in the Jeep Cherokee - that 4.0 inline six makes a lot of low rpm torque - again it's "ok".

The biggest problem I had with my old TD and Zuk box was heat at highway speeds - too hot to touch after 1/2 hour at 65mph. I am sure that won't be the issue for W56 Toyota/TDI combo - but I haven't had it on the road in the new configuration yet. Soon, I hope I will - it rides around the yard on tractor tires already, and I have a set of 39.5" boggers to try on the highway this summer, after I finish the rig.
 

mr.mindless

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Very good to know, thanks. Looks like the transmission falling into my lap thing may be happening, but this project will probably get tried eventually anyway. After all, if it fails, it's not like a spare 1.9 or 2.0 TDI is a hard thing to sell :)
 

Scott_DeWitt

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Texas USA
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2000 Audi A4 1.9TDI quattro
The V6 tdi and 5 cylinder transmissions share the same bell housing, however the flywheels differ. however without comparing both patterns together, you won't know if they are exactly the same. audi transmissions are drilled for multiple block patterns (4 cylinder, 5, V6, and V8).
 

quantum_tdi

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TurbinePower said:
I have been told by at least two importers and a few unaffiliated individuals that the V6 TDi shares the VW/Audi 5-cylinder bolt pattern.
so, the quantum tdi is still in the cards? ;) Just reviving this idea... Thinking about tdi in the Tacoma...
 

TurbinePower

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quantum_tdi said:
so, the quantum tdi is still in the cards? ;) Just reviving this idea... Thinking about tdi in the Tacoma...
Holy thread necromancy Batman!:eek:

Maybe. Quantum may become my sole non-diesel and swap to a 30v V6 twin-turbo. She's my fun car anyway... :D
 

quantum_tdi

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she was fun... *sigh*

Picking up an '03 wagon this week and maybe I'll have time to make a syncro B4V TDI out of my current one... after all my wife treats it more like a truck.
 

Scott_DeWitt

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bhtooefr said:
The VR6 and 5-cyl use the same bellhousing, so you could always see if a VR6 will bolt up...
VR6 does not use the same bell housing as a 5 cylinder. You can mate a Vr6 to an 012/01E using the factory adapter plate found in the Phaeton 3.2.

You also might want to look into a VW LT transmission. It was rear wheel drive and had either a 4,5 or 6 cylinder tid/diesel engine.

rsxsr said:
How about a Quaife 5 speed non-synchro racing dog box with Toyota T50 adapter included? http://www.teamlox.com/Sale/Quaife/ ? Input shaft is a Ford 1 inch 23 splines. Pilot end is standard 15mm.
Interesting proposotion, however I'd be willing to bet that cost is a consideration in this discussion.
 
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deaner

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97 TDI in hm md 4x4
bellhousing

There is another option that nobody is talking about...building a bellhousing. That way you could use any trans. you desire. Thats what I did after not finding what I wanted. With my homemade bell I can use the original vw flywheel,pressure plate and starter. The correct flywheel seems improtant to me. I also liked the idea of keeping the starter on the trans side and away from the exhaust, VW engineers got that part right.
 
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