Tranny in limp mode

Radman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 13, 2001
Location
Montreal
TDI
2014 Audi A6 TDI, 2014 Touareg TDI
While driving this morning my tranny decided to go into limp mode and CEL came on. Then car suddenly stalled:eek: Started back up but remained in 3rd gear. Ill scan the codes this evening. Any ideas in advance of what may be the cause? I was in TIP mode when it happend and have read somewhere about sensors failing:confused:
 

Radman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 13, 2001
Location
Montreal
TDI
2014 Audi A6 TDI, 2014 Touareg TDI
Codes are:

17114 Incorrect Gear Ratio, PO730-003
17195 Excessive Clutch Slippage, PO811-003

Does not sound too good!!?
 

MOGolf

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Joined
Jun 27, 2001
Location
underneath something
TDI
2001 Golf GLS TDI Reflex silver, rough road suspension and steel skid plate, 2004 Passat Variant, Candy White, rough road suspension and geared balanced shaft module, and much, much more. 2016 LR RR HSE TD6, 2019 Jaguar I-PACE
Maintenance history of the tranny? Miles/kilometers?
 

Radman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 13, 2001
Location
Montreal
TDI
2014 Audi A6 TDI, 2014 Touareg TDI
220000 KMS, fluid and filter replaced at 200000 KMS. (by me) Not sure prior to that if anything done. Previous owner stated dealer serviced car by the book. As we all know manual says no maintenance required on tranny. Purchased car with 190000 KMS a year ago. Ill check fluid level, no visible leaks however.?
 

MOGolf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 27, 2001
Location
underneath something
TDI
2001 Golf GLS TDI Reflex silver, rough road suspension and steel skid plate, 2004 Passat Variant, Candy White, rough road suspension and geared balanced shaft module, and much, much more. 2016 LR RR HSE TD6, 2019 Jaguar I-PACE
17114 - ATF fluid not OK, or Torque converter malfunctioning, or clutch slipping/faulty or solenoid valves are soiled or faulty, or open circuit in wiring or short circuit to ground or B+, or Transmission vehicle speed sensor G38 faulty, or sensor for transmission RPM G182 faulty, or faulty TCM. Since it is -003 (if that means the third possible cause?), check for loose connector or damaged wiring.

17195 - not found in Bentley
 

Radman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 13, 2001
Location
Montreal
TDI
2014 Audi A6 TDI, 2014 Touareg TDI
There was no signs of slippage before it occured so I suspect possibly sensor or connector related. Ill start with the simple stuff first. I did have water seepage passenger side floorboard. Are there any connectors located in that area??
 

MOGolf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 27, 2001
Location
underneath something
TDI
2001 Golf GLS TDI Reflex silver, rough road suspension and steel skid plate, 2004 Passat Variant, Candy White, rough road suspension and geared balanced shaft module, and much, much more. 2016 LR RR HSE TD6, 2019 Jaguar I-PACE
The TCM is located there.
 

DickSilver

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2004
Location
Kentucky
TDI
2004 B5.5V, 1996 B4V
Radman: You said that you replaced tranny fluid & filter. Did you use the special VW fluid? And follow the VW procedure for setting the proper fill level? I've not done it myself, but understand it to be quite special.
 

Radman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 13, 2001
Location
Montreal
TDI
2014 Audi A6 TDI, 2014 Touareg TDI
Yes I used the proper fluid and followed the fill instructions. Not to worry, I have 7 over years of TDI maintenance under my belt so am fairly mechanically inclined. Automatic transmissions however are out of my league if it needs to be pulled! Ill first check connections and TCM. I suspect electronic issue as it was running fine and smooth just before it happend.
Thanks MOGolf for input.
 

Radman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 13, 2001
Location
Montreal
TDI
2014 Audi A6 TDI, 2014 Touareg TDI
Is the TCM hard to find / get to? Ill check Bentley when I get home for more info.
 

Radman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 13, 2001
Location
Montreal
TDI
2014 Audi A6 TDI, 2014 Touareg TDI
Latest diagnosis... Fluid full, TCM and all connectors dry. Re-set codes and put car in gear (jacked up in garage) Incorrect Gear Ratio code re-appears. I noticed some tests can be run in Vag-Com. Anyone have info on that? Ill look at Ross-Tech site for more info as well.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I think there is a shift solenoid output test you can perform. All the solenoids are located in a row towards the rear of the car, in the valve body. Very easy to get at once the pan is off.

Also do some google searches, that transmission is a ZF 5HP-19 FL. But it is internally very similar to many 5HP-19 units used in RWD cars like BMWs, Jaguars, etc.

F = FWD

L = Longitudinal mounting

and the AWD versions will have an 'A' after the FL
 

Lug_Nut

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 20, 1998
Location
Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
TDI
idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H
Yes, there is a solenoid output test. I'd suspect that the solenoid(s) for third are stuck since no solenoid active is 4th ratio. 3rd ratio is a default, but that signal to use 3rd has to come from the TCM, therefore there has to be some electrical connection.

BTW, Mine has lost all the "cold shifting / engine limp mode / engine fault code" issues it had since the fluid was flushed 2 weeks ago.
My wife says she would no longer be afraid to drive it now that it shifts properly and isn't going to throw a chain.
Ooohhh! Maybe I can give this one to her and I can get my B4V back!
 
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Radman

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May 13, 2001
Location
Montreal
TDI
2014 Audi A6 TDI, 2014 Touareg TDI
I ran the solenoid test in Vag. The first two made a noise but the other two (numbers 3 & 4) did not?? Maybe they are defective?? How many solenoids are there? 4? I dont have the Bentley here with me at work.
Reply on Passat World tells me I need new Torque Converter:( , Im not convinced as symptoms prior to failure did not exist:rolleyes:
 

Lug_Nut

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 20, 1998
Location
Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
TDI
idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H
I recall that I heard all three(? four?) solenoids clicking as they shifted. No noise means that it (they) isn't/aren't shifting. Different combinations result in different ratios. There would probably be no noise in 4th ratio due to all solenoids being in an off state for that ratio.

Yeah, the flush was money well spent, a definite improvement.
The BS B.S. was harder to justify on a cost / benefit ratio as there isn't all that much discernible difference in function. Longevity, definitely, but not in seat of the pants results.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Oh I noticed a huge seat-of-the-pants difference, in that my butthole is no longer puckering from tension of something breaking in the bottom of the engine every time I drive the car.

Plus, the car is without a doubt quieter. Don't really notice it inside the car, though.
 

Radman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 13, 2001
Location
Montreal
TDI
2014 Audi A6 TDI, 2014 Touareg TDI
So I assume there is probably 5 solenoids seeing as it is a 5 speed tranny? I thought I only saw 4 in Vag but could be wrong.
 

Lug_Nut

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 20, 1998
Location
Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
TDI
idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H
No, there are combinations of solenoids, not necessarily individual solenoids dedicated to only one ratio each. Not quite 'binary' in function, but none, one, or two solenoids can be used in combination to get more ratios than there are solenoids.


My wife says it is quieter now with the gears (she hadn't heard the sound while the tensioner was broken), but I don't. I actually think there is more noise now than when the tensioner was still intact, definitely not less according to my ear, but it is at a different frequency / tone than the chain produced. Maybe that's why I notice it, because it is just 'different' than a quiet chain.
I didn't have enough time to become accustomed to a noisy chain as it was run all of perhaps 5 minutes once I heard that.
 
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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
There is a whole row of solenoids, the 5HP is a true 5-speed transmission (not an on-off overdrive deal like many other 5 speed autoboxes are). I think there are 6 or 7 electrical connections across the back of the valve body, and 5 of them are solenoids. Shift solenoids, TCC solenoid, etc.

It is true most electro-hydraulic autoboxes use a redundant system of shift solenoids to make the different gears, but this transmission is not exactly like that. I do not have the shift control map in front of me, however.

More info can be found here:

http://www.zf.com/na/content/media/import/zf_na/startseite/sso/passenger_car___light_truck/car_driveline/product_catalog/5HP19FL.pdf
 
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Lug_Nut

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 20, 1998
Location
Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
TDI
idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H
There are three shift solenoids and a couple of pressure solenoids. the shift solenoids are N88, 89 and 90.
Engine not running: all three are off. gear ratio is 4th.
Engine started
in park: 88 and 89 on, 90 off, gear ratio is 1st.
in reverse: 88 on, 89, 90 off, gear is R.
in neutral: like park
in drive:
1st and 2nd: 88 and 89 on, 90 off (like P and N).
3rd: 88 off, 89 on, 90 off.
4th: all off (like engine stopped)
5th: 88 on, 89, 90 off (like R).

Obviously other pressure solenoids are also used to change between 1st and 2nd, as well as to differentiate between R and 5th.

I could get no sound from the vag-com output test of the solenoids, other than the shift interlock.
 

Radman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 13, 2001
Location
Montreal
TDI
2014 Audi A6 TDI, 2014 Touareg TDI
Im well aware of the BS issue. However right now the Tranny is priority. Have scheduled the BS replacement for early march. However right now Im not sure if I will keep the car.
 

Radman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 13, 2001
Location
Montreal
TDI
2014 Audi A6 TDI, 2014 Touareg TDI
Anyone know what is involved with transplanting a 6 speed manual? Other that the tranny and clutch hardware. I think the ECU needs to be changed and possibly the TCM??? Where can I source an ECU for a manual tranny Passat TDI?? Europe?
 

Scott_DeWitt

Vendor
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Apr 7, 2004
Location
Texas USA
TDI
2000 Audi A4 1.9TDI quattro
Radman said:
Anyone know what is involved with transplanting a 6 speed manual? Other that the tranny and clutch hardware. I think the ECU needs to be changed and possibly the TCM??? Where can I source an ECU for a manual tranny Passat TDI?? Europe?
You will need:

Transmission
Pedal cluster
Clutch hydraulics
Axles
Shifter Assembly
clutch Assembly
Trans mounts
I think you also might need a subframe (transmission mounts differ)

You'll also have to do something with the Engine ECM. Since the US passat engine only came to the USA with an Auto you can't just use a European ecm as they are not the exact same engine, so you need to buddy up with your favorite ECM hacker and see what can be done.
 

yatzee

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Jan 4, 2004
Location
Montreal, Qc
TDI
see sig
I wanted to do this mod because i hate most things automatic (I make exceptions for anything over 350hp) but the cost is a bit painful....
 

Scott_DeWitt

Vendor
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Location
Texas USA
TDI
2000 Audi A4 1.9TDI quattro
yatzee said:
I wanted to do this mod because i hate most things automatic (I make exceptions for anything over 350hp) but the cost is a bit painful....
\

Yes it is pricey, but a rebuilt automatic is nearly $3,000 and an "Upgrade" is nearly 5,000. For a price in between those you could have a manual conversion.
 

962

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Location
Laval by the beach
TDI
Wagon 03
Salut Radman,

Es-tu sur que ton problème n'est pas juste un trouble de voltage!!! Vérifie tes connection à la batterie pour être sur qu'elles sont bien propre et bien serrées.

Fais un load test sur ta batterie / alternateur. J'ai souvent des troubles de transmission sur des camoins de pompiers à la ville de Montréal et 95 % du temps ce sont des troubles de bas voltages.

P.S. J'ai l'impression que tu dois t'ennuyer de ton ancien Jetta Wagon dans ce temps là...
 

Radman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 13, 2001
Location
Montreal
TDI
2014 Audi A6 TDI, 2014 Touareg TDI
Merci 962! Je vais voir a ca.

Does anyone know the specific procedure in Vag-Com to test the solenoids? I cannot seem to find it anywhere even on Ross Techs site?

Thanks to all who gave input. Vortex and Passat world have NOT been as helpful:rolleyes:
 

962

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Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Location
Laval by the beach
TDI
Wagon 03
Salut Radman

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