Trading my Jetta for a Leaf

[vwdieseling]

^^ Why does an electric car need a lead-acid battery in it?

At least that's what the white box looks like in the photo.

Took that course through motor age. Answer: simple starting and accessories. The lead acid battery according to predictions will be around a little longer as a necessity even in the EV's.

 

[Chris]

It appears that the Leaf's weak point in hot climates is the lack of temperature management for its battery.
Probably the most complex aspect of the Volt is its liquid cooled (and heated) battery. Where the Leaf (and Prius Plug-in) merely pull cabin air through the battery pack to cool it, the Volt actively chills it using the same refrigerant loop as the cabin air conditioning.

If parked in high temperatures when the battery is close to fully charged (and thus more vulnerable) the car will run the compressor to keep the battery from getting too hot.

While it's still early, I've seen no anecdotal evidence of range loss in Volts operated in hot climates.

FWIW a new replacement Volt battery pack can be purchased for less than $3,000.

 

[kjclow]

I know I am getting off-track, and the OP is in the Northeast, so its a non-issue in that case, but I was just at an event today, and Nissan happened to be there show-casing its cars (in Phoenix area). Sure enough, they had a Leaf there.

From what I have read, Nissan has not changed the battery chemistry on the Leaf (although I could be wrong). It just seems to me, they really shouldn't market the Leaf in an area where it is well known there are problems with batteries.

I don't blame Nissan for the battery problems in Arizona - its the extreme heat (extended summers, with 120 F temps standard) that crush the batteries. I just think they should consider this in their marketing/distribution of the car.

All the other manufacturers have commented on the fact that heat is a major factor in battery degradation.

To keep the Leaf cost down, and to keep it simple & reliable, they apparently didn't use a liquid cooling system for the batteries, and allow full use of the batteries (near full-charge and near full-discharge). That is fine in most of the country - but not in the desert Southwest.

It just seems Nissan wants to pass-off the Leaf as a standard car, which happens to use batteries. To stick with this story-line, they aren't acknowledging the very well-proven scientific fact of heat degradation of batteries. As far as I am concerned, its a major gaff on their part.

As far as I am concerned, its fairly common sense that batteries won't hold up well in extreme heat.

Not marketing any car in any one of the states or provinces would be a killer. The only way to sell a car is to make it viable every where. Remember all those diesel sold in California in the 05 (maybe earlier) -08 model years?

 

[puntmeister]

FWIW a new replacement Volt battery pack can be purchased for less than $3,000.

From what I've read, the Volt and the Leaf use the same battery chemistry. I can't imagine the battery of the Volt is substantially smaller than the Leaf, as the Volt has decent range, even without the ICE.

So why the huge cost variance for the battery?

FWIW - Nissan hasn't yet, to my knowledge, released a replacement price for the battery. But, I believe there is some sort of battery lease - $100/month.

$100/month is kinda steep for something that costs $3,000, and is supposed to last a decade....

Not doubting you, just trying to get to the bottom of this - cuz, I would think, if Nissan could sell its battery for around $3k, I would think they would have made that as clear and loud as possible when the battery issues came up.

OTOH, if the cost is truly closer to $15k, that would be a good reason to keep it a secret...

 

[puntmeister]

It appears that the Leaf's weak point in hot climates is the lack of temperature management for its battery.
Probably the most complex aspect of the Volt is its liquid cooled (and heated) battery. Where the Leaf (and Prius Plug-in) merely pull cabin air through the battery pack to cool it, the Volt actively chills it using the same refrigerant loop as the cabin air conditioning.

If parked in high temperatures when the battery is close to fully charged (and thus more vulnerable) the car will run the compressor to keep the battery from getting too hot.

.

It actually doesn't sound that complex. Both the Volt and Leaf already have electric A/C's, so they can be easily run without actually driving the car.

All that would really be needed are coolant lines going around the batteries, and a temp gauge that activates the AC.

I can't imagine all that adds extraordinary manufacturing cost.

But I could be missing something.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Don't confuse what it costs to manufacture with what they'll sell it for. It's pretty common knowledge that GM isn't making any money on the Volt, to say the least. The batteries may be sold at a big loss as well.

 

[puntmeister]

Good point.

If it costs them around $15k to manufacture, and are selling them for $3k - that's a heck of a loss.

But, I suppose, they could be doing it:

1) To generally keep the allure of EV's alive.

2) Its seen as a sort of partial warranty: "Ok, if the battery ever goes bad, we'll replace it - you just have to contribute $3k to the cost".

 

[kjclow]

And don't forget that each electric or hybrid they sell helps with the CAFE numbers.

 

[skramer]

Still America depends on coal electricity for nearly half of it's power.

And you would do it differently how?

 

[kapps]

It actually doesn't sound that complex. Both the Volt and Leaf already have electric A/C's, so they can be easily run without actually driving the car.

All that would really be needed are coolant lines going around the batteries, and a temp gauge that activates the AC.

I can't imagine all that adds extraordinary manufacturing cost.

But I could be missing something.

But the Volt has an ICE for when the battery gets drained sitting in the parking lot using the a/c to keep itself cool. The Leaf is an EV only. It seems like the largest issue is a fully charged battery out in the middle of summer. I guess this could happen if your commute is very short but then you should be using the 80% charge option on the charger. My dad has a 50 mile round trip to work and only charges to 80% and gets home with ~20 miles of range.

 

[philngrayce]

And you would do it differently how?

Coal works. I think nuclear, natural gas, wind, hydro and solar are all better choices, but I know environmentalists who object to all of them too.

 

[philngrayce]

It's probably pretty hard to get a real answer on what the batteries cost - there are so many ways to define cost, depending on what your motivation is.

I assume costs will also come down significantly with economies of scale and technological improvements. As a consumer, I would like to know what the battery will sell for.

There is a place in Nevada that specializes in EVs. They advertise that they can sell you a new Leaf battery for $2,000, if you buy the used car from them. I have no idea where they get the batteries (Nissan, China, wrecks) or if they are legitimate. But that is what they say.

 

[Windex]

Excellent page with videos conducted and narrated by GMs chief powertrain engineer for the Volt's Voltec powertrain:

http://www.plugincars.com/exclusive...ly-how-chevy-volt-powertrain-works-95344.html

 

[BlankThis]

And you would do it differently how?

While there is no perfect eco-friendly way of creating electricity at this time. The US needs to modernize itself, it many ways, but in this case in terms of how it powers its electrical grid. Burning coal is probably the least environmentally responsible way of creating energy.

 

[Chris]

It actually doesn't sound that complex. Both the Volt and Leaf already have electric A/C's, so they can be easily run without actually driving the car.

All that would really be needed are coolant lines going around the batteries, and a temp gauge that activates the AC.

I can't imagine all that adds extraordinary manufacturing cost.

But I could be missing something.

That's the issue with the Leaf nonetheless. With the design based on air cooling, they can't readily add liquid cooling after the fact.

 

[Chris]

It's probably pretty hard to get a real answer on what the batteries cost - there are so many ways to define cost, depending on what your motivation is.

I assume costs will also come down significantly with economies of scale and technological improvements. As a consumer, I would like to know what the battery will sell for.

There is a place in Nevada that specializes in EVs. They advertise that they can sell you a new Leaf battery for $2,000, if you buy the used car from them. I have no idea where they get the batteries (Nissan, China, wrecks) or if they are legitimate. But that is what they say.

Dorman just purchased a place in NC that refurbishes Prius batteries for ~$1,800 but, of course, they're NiMh and way too small for an EV application.

[Edit: You can get a new (genuine GM) Volt battery for $2,180.10 from www.gmpartsdirect.com . Compares favorably with an automatic transmission for a conventional car]

 

[Chris]

From what I've read, the Volt and the Leaf use the same battery chemistry. I can't imagine the battery of the Volt is substantially smaller than the Leaf, as the Volt has decent range, even without the ICE.

So why the huge cost variance for the battery?

The Leaf battery is 24 kWh; 16.5 kWh in the Volt.

GM allows the customer to use only the middle 60% of its capacity (giving me 45 - 50 miles range in the summer).

I don't doubt that GM has set a low replacement price to assuage the most common concern amongst their prospective customers.

The battery warranty is 8 yrs/ 100k miles (or in NY and CA 15 yrs/150k miles). This is to cover instances of 30% loss of capacity or more.

 

[Lug_Nut]

"CO2(e)" is the equivalent greenhouse gas intensity of the fossil CO2, CO, CH4, and NOx combined. This chart used the US national average for grid electric power, the EPA published MPG or equivalent, Argonne National Labs gasoline well to wheels GHG, and data from an Oregon state study on biodiesel from reclaimed waste sources.

From left to right is most climate change to least.
The Leaf is 10th from the left. Tesla model S 85 kW is 6th, Volt on battery is 7th, Tesla model S 60 is 8th, 2002 Jetta on bio from waste on the far right, just a touch less environmentally damaging than the Tesla Roadster.

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=102094&title=w2w-co2&cat=500

'nuff said.

 

[WVU TDI]

Similar scenario

Having recently moved from having a ~ mile 98% highway round trip for work everyday, I'm now dealing with a ~3 mile all city round trip every day. Initial thoughts were to trade the Golf in on a Leaf and use my gf's 2010 Legacy or steal my dad's 2013 Passat TDI for trips.

 

[philngrayce]

"CO2(e)" is the equivalent greenhouse gas intensity of the fossil CO2, CO, CH4, and NOx combined. This chart used the US national average for grid electric power, the EPA published MPG or equivalent, Argonne National Labs gasoline well to wheels GHG, and data from an Oregon state study on biodiesel from reclaimed waste sources.

From left to right is most climate change to least.
The Leaf is 10th from the left. Tesla model S 85 kW is 6th, Volt on battery is 7th, Tesla model S 60 is 8th, 2002 Jetta on bio from waste on the far right, just a touch less environmentally damaging than the Tesla Roadster.

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=102094&title=w2w-co2&cat=500

'nuff said.

Interesting chart. Can you post a link directly to it; I can't read the cars across the bottom.

It does raise some questions:

Why is the Tesla Roadster so much better than the S ? Who produced the chart?
If you are going to consider the source of the diesel - biodiesee vs petro - (and it is right to do that) there should probably be a category for nuclear or renewably sourced electricity too.

 

[puntmeister]

As per post just above - yes, when it comes to EV's, the environmental consequences are highly variable dependent upon the source of the electricity.

There is a huge environmental difference between rooftop solar & coal-fired grid electricity.

Electricity isn't really a source of energy - it is a convenient means of transporting energy. The one exception might be lightning bolts - but I have yet to see a viable way of capturing them for practical use....


Sources of energy:

Sun
Wind
Tides & Waves
Fossil Fuels
Nuclear
Geothermal

Electricity & Hydrogen are often confused as "energy sources".

Electric engines & Internal Combustion Engines are examples of methods to convert energy into useful work.

While the technology used to convert energy into useful work has a big impact on efficiency (how much energy is turned into useful work vs. how much is wasted), they don't address the environmental impact of the energy source itself.

 

[PacketHauler]

Very much so! There are many many many commercial applications where they use a diesel/electric hybrid. I think with gearing down to the generator from the engine.. you could easily run the diesel engine at very low speeds and loads, sipping fuel. Like 1qt an hour lol.

Top Gear attempted to make one:
Hammerhead Eagle I-Thrust

 

[Geordi]

Ok, yes... But those guys are idiots.

They also are heavily subsidized and scrutinized by the auto industry. Witness the kerfuffle they went through to get a new Ferrari a couple years back, when Ferrari wouldn't let anyone drive it other than "the Stig" played that day by Michael Schumacher. Many of their car "reviews" are highly suspect for manufacturer-tampering. They rarely say anything truly controversial about a vehicle unless that vehicle is already universally hated.

All that said... I love the show and think they are incredibly entertaining. The USA version has gotten a bit better (scale of 1-10, they started around a 3... Maybe are at a 5/6 right now) but both shows aren't going to suggest anything revolutionary without really mucking it up.

Their "Hammerhead Eagle-I Thrust" was a good concept, and I was excited to see how it would be created. I'm going to skip over the aesthetics they created, because that truly was horrific to look at.

The mechanicals - They chose a motor from an existing electric vehicle, but what REALLY are the normal specs of an electric milk-delivery truck? The top speed of one of those is probably in the 35-mph range because of the expected use. That also very likely was a DC-only motor, meaning it was much heavier than an AC system, and much slower.

3-phase AC systems are much lighter for a given power rating, but require the complex electronic controllers that I doubt they actually had. They also chose the WORST Chinese diesel generator available... Most likely because it was the cheapest and would be funny with what the idiots did with it.

Given the status of power generation today, I think that a purely-electric-car could have its power needs met by a moderate generator to replace some or all of the battery weight. Yes, it wouldn't make the tree-hugger types feel all warm and fuzzy, but then again, they are ignoring the massive environmental costs to GET their electric car in the first place.

One thing to consider in all this: The manufacturers ARE NOT SMART about this stuff the way we think they might be. Ford says that the Hybrid Escape cannot tow anything (at all!) where the non-hybrid is only rated to tow 1000 lbs. This is a cop-out on their part, hoping that people will buy a much-higher-profit-margin truck if they need to pull anything.

I had a problem with my Jeep Liberty CRD on the New Jersey Turnpike. The fuel filter clogged on me. I was towing a 6x12 enclosed box trailer, with my motorcycle and about 3500 other pounds of crap in it. This then was a 8500 lb lawn ornament with the dead Jeep factored in. The Ford Escape Hybrid that my family was in PULLED THE WHOLE SETUP several miles to the next rest stop on the turnpike. While pulling, the hybrid actually shut down the gas engine, proving that the whole job was being done entirely by the electric system!

Over 12,000 lbs being moved by that electric motor and CVT transmission.

I have since used those same hybrids for other towing jobs, and they have pulled marvelously each time. What makes us think that the manufacturers HAVE thought through this system like we have / are here? Maybe the engineers have... But they could make a vehicle that could easily last 500,000 miles and never rust. They don't, because then nobody would ever buy another car!

Maybe that is a factor in the electric car designs?

 

[Oilerlord]

Have to give props to Nissan for recognizing the battery will need to be replaced, and offering an affordable battery replacement program to Leaf owners.

http://green.autoblog.com/2013/06/20/nissan-leaf-battery-replacement-will-cost-100-month/

For me, $100 per month buys a lot of diesel (I bought $1300 of it last year) and filling my tank didn't make my electricity bill go up; but I suppose I'm missing the big picture. Reading a few posts in Leaf forums shows that ownership isn't all sunshine & lollipops:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewforum.php?f=30&sid=4845aae33c6a210809b856ffb61136b4

 

[darrelld]

I know I am getting off-track, and the OP is in the Northeast, so its a non-issue in that case, but I was just at an event today, and Nissan happened to be there show-casing its cars (in Phoenix area). Sure enough, they had a Leaf there.

From what I have read, Nissan has not changed the battery chemistry on the Leaf (although I could be wrong). It just seems to me, they really shouldn't market the Leaf in an area where it is well known there are problems with batteries.

I don't blame Nissan for the battery problems in Arizona - its the extreme heat (extended summers, with 120 F temps standard) that crush the batteries. I just think they should consider this in their marketing/distribution of the car.

All the other manufacturers have commented on the fact that heat is a major factor in battery degradation.

To keep the Leaf cost down, and to keep it simple & reliable, they apparently didn't use a liquid cooling system for the batteries, and allow full use of the batteries (near full-charge and near full-discharge). That is fine in most of the country - but not in the desert Southwest.

It just seems Nissan wants to pass-off the Leaf as a standard car, which happens to use batteries. To stick with this story-line, they aren't acknowledging the very well-proven scientific fact of heat degradation of batteries. As far as I am concerned, its a major gaff on their part.

As far as I am concerned, its fairly common sense that batteries won't hold up well in extreme heat.

Same problem with the C-Max Energi, air cooled batteries. The only reason I didn't go for the Energi.

VW Golf Electric is supposed to have liquid cooling.

http://www.slashgear.com/vw-e-golf-...rth-american-debut-at-la-motor-show-15305514/

Volkswagen has announced that its latest electric car will be making its North American debut soon at the LA Motor Show. The e-Golf is the first fully electric VW car that will be offered in the US. Like other electric vehicles on the market in the US, the e-Golf will deliver everyday driving capability with no emissions.

The e-Golf will use a 24.2 kWh lithium-ion battery pack and an electric motor producing 115 hp and 199 pound-feet of torque. The vehicle will ship with an onboard 7.2kW charger as standard. VW fits its EV with three regenerative braking modes to help improve its driving range.
The electric motor is powerful enough to push the e-Golf to 25 mph in 4.2 seconds and to 60 mph in 10.4 seconds. Top speed for the EV is limited to 87 mph. VW says that depending on what regenerative braking mode is used and the driving style, the vehicle is good for a driving range of 70 to 90 miles.
VW also fits the e-Golf with a heat pump to help it function properly in cold environments. The battery pack is liquid cooled and weighs 701 pounds. The entire car weighs 3090 pounds. The battery pack has 264 prismatic cells in 27 modules holding six or 12 cells each. The car will need about 20 hours to charge fully using a standard 110/120 volt wall socket. With a 220-volt outlet charging at 7.2 kW, the car needs four hours to charge fully.

 

[philngrayce]

The Chevy Volt also has a liquid cooled battery. It probably is a better system, but living in a place where temps are pretty moderate I think I'd rather have the simpler system.

 

[Geordi]

Feeding that VW electric is going to cost about $60 per month in electricity costs. This is based on 13 cents per kWh, 7.2 kW per hour of charging, 4 hours per night for 25 days a month (figuring on an average if it is used for normal-person commuting and some weekend usage)...

Meanwhile, some guesstimates on the vehicle itself:

70-90 miles with regen braking and "depending on driving style" weasel words factored in... I suspect an ACTUAL range of somewhere around 50 miles with no stops (so only highway) and a reasonable highway speed of 70mph. Less than an hour at full highway speed, which would track with the ratings for other battery cars.

Basing on those numbers... 24kW pack, The power *should* top-up 80% of the battery fairly rapidly before swapping to a finishing charge. Let's say 2.5 hours, IF the pack is able to accept power at the full 7.2 kW delivered by the charger. To figure out the actual discharge rate of the battery into the motor, we need to figure out the actual rating of the motor. The battery pack itself is approximately 700 volts, (264 cells at 3v each for Li-Ion) so obviously the motor controller will be down-converting that to whatever the motor needs. That voltage also suggests that the top speed doesn't need to be so low - it probably could top 140mph without blinking.

They say it is a 115hp motor? That converts directly to 85 kW!! Something doesn't add up here. Obviously the motor needs to be oversized to provide some decent acceleration, but that seems a bit excessive.

I'll have to do some more math to figure out further... But if the pack will supply 24,000 watts into the motor for 45 minutes of driving at highway speeds continuously until depletion, then that divides to only 533 watts per minute consumed by the motor.

That is eminently doable by a generator, if the math tracks back through. Where you run into problems is with non-steady-state operation, leaving from lights and passing cars, etc. That is where you will need more power (amperage) in a surge, and why I would suggest having a small pack that can be continuously topped-up by the generator instead of one giant one. The battery soaks up the surges, and a 2kW generator powers the car?

I wish I was rich, I'd build one as a proof of concept.

 

[philngrayce]

I think the monthly electricity cost is high. Maybe if the battery was always fully discharged, but that won't be the case. I believe the Leaf guys say they get about 5 miles per KWh, so if you are driving 1,000 miles a month, it would be $26 for electricity.

533 watts sounds low too. Would that suggest that a 500 watt generator could power the car? That's a very small generator.

Just thinking out loud...

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Electricity here is $.17/kWH. And going up. What does that do to the math?

 

[Geordi]

Oh, I don't disagree about the numbers - The electricity cost was based on their own number of 4 hours at 7.2kW or 32amps / 220v to fully charge... But I didn't account in that number for the finishing charge which would be at a much lower wattage.

The number for the steady-state cruise also is most likely off to the low side, BUT possibly not by much. This is fairly simple math that I'm doing, but the laws of physics can't be violated. A battery can only discharge a certain amount and at some certain max rate, or damage / laws of physics come into play. Given that, the battery has 24,000 watts available at some variable voltage and amperage. Wattage never changes in relation to volts or amps. When it DOES change is based on load.

If we look at the 24,000 watts as a constant, then everything done to accelerate or decelerate either subtracts or adds to that number. I am basing my 'highway cruise' model on accelerating to a steady speed of 70mph and not stopping until those 24,000 watts have all been delivered to the wheels. IF (assumption time) the car can travel 50 miles in that amount of power, and you have approximately 45 minutes of driving - then the battery is being depleted at a rate of 533 watts per minute. This does not account for the wattage needed to accelerate from the stop, NOR does it account for variation in load due to headwind, hills, or range recovery by pulse-and-glide or slowing down for other traffic. This is as simple an equation as I can make it, start driving and go until it stops.

The way to calculate it out is this: If you know for your car, what the total pack capacity is supposed to be... AND you know what your time or mileage range is at a given average speed... Then you can figure the watts per minute that a generator would need to supply. Anything over that amount should be available to replenish the battery. There is also some capacity needed to account for efficiency losses - figure on about 5% for safety, 10% would be better in sizing the generator.

Higher speeds will draw more power of course, but what is happening should be able to be calculated out to an instantaneous power demand number. Where the numbers "sound" big is in total - Just like the total BTUs of a tank of diesel is many hundreds of thousands, the instantaneous demand is very small - only a few hundred. IF you can supply that few hundred, why wouldn't you be able to drive continuously?