Traction Control(ASR) Need a Ginnie pig

[SVTWEB]

OK Guys, I finally got around to getting all the research out of the way for the Traction Control Retro-fit. The only problem is the lack of 2002's in the salvage yard. I did however find a 2001 Jetta w/3128 miles that suffered from a severe physics problem. (To objects trying to occupy the same space at the same time)

I have the ABS/EDL/ASR hydro unit from that vehicle.

If you are located in the Baltimore/Metro area, and want to be the First kid on the block with Traction control in a US Spec Golf/Jetta drop me a line. (SVTWEB@yahoo.com)

The cost of THIS conversion will be fairly inexpensive. The only part you will need to buy new is the ASR switch and connector. All other details wil be discussed in email.

 

[danix]

If you get no other takers, let me know, I'm up in NY. I thought the hydro unit was the same on all cars according to dieselgeek though?

 

[SVTWEB]

The Hydri unit is the only difference between the cars With ASR and the cars without.

The ASR/EDL hydro Unit's have an extra pair of solinoid valves to give it the capabilities of ASR.

The problem that I have is 2002 Vehicles use te Mk. 60 ABS/EDL/ASR unit, the 2001 and earlier use the Mk. 20......

 

[Michael Moore]

Eric:

What do you think the cost of the correct hydro unit for a 2002 would be? I'm going back to Europe later this week, if the cost is not too high, I'll buy the correct part and try fitting it onto my 2002 Golf TDI. We could collaberate together, doing the two projects at the same time, and see if there is any difference between the two hydro units.

Are there any other parts required, other than the ASR switch and connector?

What added functionality does ASR give the car? I presume it is 'anti slip regulation', however, how exactly does it work? Is it different than ESP? Could ESP be refitted to a 2002 North American Golf TDI?

Michael

[ February 17, 2002, 22:32: Message edited by: Michael Moore ]

 

[tongsli]

Eric told me it's about $900.00 for a new hydro unit for the ASR feature. That's why he's been checking the salvage yards.

This is a GREAT find!! Although there is no gaurantee, he got this part for a GREAT price. Hopefully, someone will try it.

L

Dan,

the hydro unit sits below your airbox. You should make sure the 99.5 Jetta doesn't have a different unit. SVTWEB's is from a 2001.

[ February 18, 2002, 19:05: Message edited by: tongsli ]

 

[SVTWEB]

Originally posted by Michael Moore:
Eric:

What do you think the cost of the correct hydro unit for a 2002 would be?

*$495 for the Module and $450 for the Hydro Unit.

Are there any other parts required, other than the ASR switch and connector?

*None that I have found with my research.

What added functionality does ASR give the car?

*Better acceleration habbits in slippery conditions.

I presume it is 'anti slip regulation', however, how exactly does it work?

*It uses the front brakes to slow down the wheel that is turning faster, thereby transfering tourque to the wheel that is not spinning as fast.

Is it different than ESP?

*Yes, ESP uses all 4 brakes to correct for mild over/under steer.

Could ESP be refitted to a 2002 North American Golf TDI?

*Anything can be retrofitted, but ESP requires extensive wiring modifications and replacement of most of the brake system. I would not see this as a cost effective project.

Michael

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[Michael Moore]

Hi Eric:

Thanks very much for the answers and the explanation, it is greatly appreciated. Thanks also for the help with the steering wheel removal.

In the Bentley manual, there is some discussion of ABS/EDL, ABS/EDL/ASR, and plain old ABS. Do you know why some cars would have EDL but not ASR? Is the EDL a feature that is limited to only standard transmissions?

Some members have discussed in other threads use of a Quaife automatic torque biasing differential . Would installation of the ASR component that you are proposing offer any advantages that the Quaife ATB differential would not? Lastly, do you know if the Quaife unit would work in a TDI with an automatic transmission?

 

[SVTWEB]

Originally posted by Michael Moore:


In the Bentley manual, there is some discussion of ABS/EDL, ABS/EDL/ASR, and plain old ABS. Do you know why some cars would have EDL but not ASR?

*That's a new one on me. As far as I know EDL (electronic differential lock) and ASR (Automatic Spin Regulation) go hand and hand. My guess would be that ASR take into account the speed of the front wheels compared to that of the rears.

Is the EDL a feature that is limited to only standard transmissions?

*Unknown...

Some members have discussed in other threads use of a Quaife automatic torque biasing differential . Would installation of the ASR component that you are proposing offer any advantages that the Quaife ATB differential would not?

*Having used the quaife in several of my race cars, I find that NOTHING! electronic can match the capabilities of putting power down to both driving wheels like a quiafe. What ASR would add is the ability to control the spin of the wheels in less than optimum conditions.

Lastly, do you know if the Quaife unit would work in a TDI with an automatic transmission?

*Not a clue... I've only had expirence with them in manuals.

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[ February 19, 2002, 20:59: Message edited by: SVTWEB ]

 

[PTC]

EDL here in Europe can (could, maybe?) be ordered separately of ASR. In fact, it is standard equipment on some engines with higher output and Comfortline (and some other) equipment package.
AFAIK EDL should not be limited to cars with manual trannys.

[ February 20, 2002, 06:04: Message edited by: PTC ]

 

[Michael Moore]

I visited my dealer in Germany today and discussed the possibility of modifying a Golf that has ABS only to provide both ABS and ASR capability.

The dealer was not entirely sure about whether or not this could be done (his comment was: “Why didn’t you just order the car the way you wanted it?”, which I thought was kind of funny – I guess he doesn’t know how things work with VW of NA).

He did suggest, however, that he thought the ABS only cars just came with components number 2 and 3, shown at the top of the diagram, and if ASR capability was wanted, that it would be necessary to purchase and install component 11, at the bottom of the diagram, along with the associated mounting hardware and tubes (items 12 to 17), plus, of course, the ASR override switch that goes on the dashboard.

Can anyone comment on this? Does it sound correct? Is he way off base?

Parts Diagram - Brake Related Components

 

[SVTWEB]

Originally posted by DavinATL:
Have you guys thought yet about coding of the engine and ABS ECUs?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not an issue. The ABS system runs separate from the Engine ECU, there is no additional coding needed when switching modules. There is a data link between the 2 modules but they pass information without specific module coding.

 

[ihavelotsoftoys]

I have considered doing the same when my ABS computer went to lunch.
The dealer covered the new computer under warranty, but I did get prices for ABS units in the wrecking yard. Couple hundred bucks for the computer and valve unit.
If you want to try, I am game. I got a VAG-COM so recodeing the modules isn't a problem. However, I think the ECM also needs some re-coding. I taked to Ewe at Ross Tech, he seems to agree.

 

[SVTWEB]

The picture doesn't always tell the tale. And the dealer is totally clueless. Both units appear to be the same, the difference is the ASR/EDL unit has 2 more solinoid valves. THe electronics are also different, BUT the wiring harness's are the same. The only difference is the Hydro Unit and the Electronics. The Unit I have Is the entire assy of electronics and Hydro Unit.

 

[Davin]

Have you guys thought yet about coding of the engine and ABS ECUs?

Cool project... keep up the euro-upgrade ideas!

-davin

 

[danix]

I just paid SVTWEB for this, so I'm the guinea pig. Oink, oink.

 

[SVTWEB]

Danix... It's a race to see who finishes first. I just acquired a 2002 from a GTI that met with an untimely demise.... It'a MK20 against MK60.. Who Will win? Will we both fail? Only time will tell!!!!

 

[tongsli]

E and D,

How does one TEST this feature?

Lito

 

[SVTWEB]

Rev it like a Mo-Fo and Dump the clutch... If the little Yellow light blinks, and the RPM's drop.. and the ABS Module starts ABS'ing then it works....

 

[MIA]

I was playing around with the VR6 today in the snow, just accelerate a little too hard for the conditions and it will kick in. (Note, I wasn't on the road and didn't put anyone in danger!)

 

[danix]

Trust me, if it works, I'll know it, as I might actually get some traction in 1st gear

 

[Michael Moore]

Here is a picture of a brake control unit installed in a Golf that has ESP. Perhaps the photo might be useful during our discussion here to help understand where all the lines are coming from and going to. This particular car had a 1.4 liter gas engine, which took up very little space in the engine compartment – hence the clear view of the brake control unit.

Brake Control Unit from car with ESP fitted

 

[Michael Moore]

This project kinda died an early death (or maybe just got pushed to the back burner) because we all got busy with the TV Nav system. In the meantime, I found an excellent document that explains how ESP works. It also explains the difference between all these systems (ABS, ASR, ESP, etc.). It is an Adobe Acrobat document, rather large, 1 mb, but well worth the time to download it.

Electronic Stabalization Program

 

[danix]

ASR is the only thing I can get to, not ESP or EDL. I have the hydro unit from SVTWEB and will try to get to it soon.

I'm reviewing the docs to plan my attack.

 

[danix]

OK, I was getting ready to do this tomorrow, and now there is a recall on the ABS units from 2000-2002. Not sure if I should proceed or not...

 

[danix]

Bummer, but I appreciate the update.

I didn't get to pick up an ASR switch, but it looks like all I will need is to install fuse 9 and replace the hydro unit, if I'm lucky, right?
I only need the ASR switch if I want to turn ASR off, I assume?

I wonder if the ASR switch will also defeat ABS when it is engaged. That would be interesting.

 

[SVTWEB]

Your fine.. I'm screwed.... MK60 units only, not the Mk20.....

 

[danix]

Hydro unit is in and bolted right up.
I havent tested yet as I am still in the middle of changing the brakes at the same time.

Question for Eric or anyone else: I already have fuse 9, which is simply the ABS fuse. I presume I will be able to engage ASR without having the switch, ie its on all the time.

If I want to defeat ASR, I would install the switch, which I assume also defeats ABS. I know the switch interrupts the output of fuse 9, but I'm not sure where I would tap these wires to install the switch.

One interesting discovery to share - the back of the VW switches look a lot like the back of any mid-90s Audi, so I should easily be able to find female connectors for my heated seat switches if/when I install them.

 

[SVTWEB]

Originally posted by danix:
Question for Eric or anyone else: I already have fuse 9, which is simply the ABS fuse. I presume I will be able to engage ASR without having the switch, ie its on all the time.

If I want to defeat ASR, I would install the switch, which I assume also defeats ABS. I know the switch interrupts the output of fuse 9, but I'm not sure where I would tap these wires to install the switch.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sounds Logical to me.......

 

[tongsli]

I don't think that's right Dan.

From the Bentley's manual:

1. Connect the switch T6/6 to Fuse 9 BEFORE the unit and NOT after it. Pull the fuse and check for voltage. Use THAT wire.

2. Connect T25/15 from the ABS unit to T32a/14

3. Between these two units, connect wire from the switch T6/5

4.Take power for the switch from a nearby switch such as the defrost or emergency. Use the wires: gr(gray)bl(blue) - Power & br(brown) for ground. All of the switches use the same two color wires. Remember when you connected your gauge lights?

These are the wires Bentley's says you need for ASR.

I make no gaurantees, please look in the book and tell me if I'm reading something wrong.

It looks like the ABS and ASR are NOT connected. Killing the ASR doesn't kill the ABS. It's not wired that way(or it doesn't appear to be that way)

On my passat(which has ABS & ASR) your ABS didn't turn off when the ASR was turned off. That doesn't make sense.

Hope this helps,

Lito

 

[tongsli]