Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive, regen braking might have stepped on a patent... oops...

[shagpal]

I read the solomon patent

the patent looks very cryptic, but it appears that it is trying to be that way on purpose.

what it seems to try to do, is to patent how a differential or a planet gear system works, which intuitively is like trying to patent the wheel. I see that as too broad, and the patent might invalidate itself with respect to this law suit, and to me, that is Solomon's biggest risk.

also, a differential by it's very nature is a split power device. the entire patent claims to employ either a diff or a set of planet gears, but not both at one time. reads to be an either or approach.

what the patent does attempt to do is to imply that electric motor componets are "rigidly" attached to certain elements of the diff, or of the planet gears. to me, all systems are somehow "rigidly" attached to gears. for instance, A car windshield is rigidly attached the frame, which is rigidly attached to the motor...you get the picture. simply being attached means that the motor is attached to the tranny, which is attached to the driveshaft, etc. etc.

to me, the weakness of the patent is not that it does not have merits, but that it's claims are too broad, and fail to corral the whole concept of gearing arrangements that have been around for a very long time. remember, in patent law, all portions of a patent that try to claim previous inventions, existing, or expired inventions invalidate those portions of the patent that are claiming a new invention. even tho the USPTO granted that patent, it doesn't mean that any claims within the patent have a valid merit as new inventions. and because none of their art work appears to resemble any prius component, I don't think the law suit lacks merit.

 

[DC-TDIWagon]

WHen you read, the author places a heavy emphasis on Electric Vehicle and 2 inputs & 1 output of rotational mechanical energy

The 2 inputs are:
1. Electric Motor
2. A type of regenerative braking system.

Output: Motion of the electric vehicle.

.... we know how gas-electric hybrids work.

There are 3 inputs:
1. Electric motor
2. Energy from regenerative braking.
3. Internal Combustion Engine

Right off the bat-- because of the additional input, Toyota did not violate the patent.

The energy from the braking would be coming back through the output and the two inputs could be the motor and engine. I can't comment on the validity of this patent(or any patent), but this is not a submarine patent and just because someone doesn't sue right away it doesn't mean they don't have a good case or are being mischievous. If they win in court they lose out by not filing the case earlier. Plus, the ITC court doesn't deal with damages(I think). I know someone that is a lawyer for customs and they hate dealing with these cases before the ITC becuase sometimes the ITC isn't equiped to handle the details and sometime something will get banned from import, then the manufacturer says "we changed it so it is legal" and customs has to sort the mess out. How can they tell one technical widget from another? The process can start all over again with the "new" widget. Eaton equipment had this problem with a transmission patent and a competitor. As a note, Federal District Court isn't always equipped to handle these cases either.
When looking at what the patent covers you need to consider what the claims say. All of the claims in this patent list the first and second input power sources as being electric power. That is a lot different than one engine input and one motor input. My hunch is that it is only Toyota's electric motor design that possibly infringes. Toyota's motor itself probably contains this transmission with two inputs as an integral part. Toyota's motor then connects to an engine and another transmission that then combines the two power sources.

 

[Kiwi_ME]

what the patent does attempt to do is to imply that electric motor componets are "rigidly" attached to certain elements of the diff, or of the planet gears. to me, all systems are somehow "rigidly" attached to gears. for instance, A car windshield is rigidly attached the frame, which is rigidly attached to the motor...you get the picture. simply being attached means that the motor is attached to the tranny, which is attached to the driveshaft, etc. etc.

My understanding of "rigidly attached.." is that the two components share a set of bearings and that they are trying to imply this took some level of innovation.

Of couse "frameless" motors, meaning just the bare rotor and stator, have been available for decades and are used precisely just for this sort of thing.

 

[shagpal]

yeah, I don't really see the innovation in that.

My understanding of "rigidly attached.." is that the two components share a set of bearings and that they are trying to imply this took some level of innovation.

Of couse "frameless" motors, meaning just the bare rotor and stator, have been available for decades and are used precisely just for this sort of thing.

 

[shagpal]

there are so many patents for planet gears, that the USPTO has a section all to itself for planetary gears, section 475. I dunno how solomon can patent the "planet gears", or how it works. that is like trying to patent the wheel.

The energy from the braking would be coming back through the output and the two inputs could be the motor and engine. I can't comment on the validity of this patent(or any patent), but this is not a submarine patent and just because someone doesn't sue right away it doesn't mean they don't have a good case or are being mischievous. If they win in court they lose out by not filing the case earlier. Plus, the ITC court doesn't deal with damages(I think). I know someone that is a lawyer for customs and they hate dealing with these cases before the ITC becuase sometimes the ITC isn't equiped to handle the details and sometime something will get banned from import, then the manufacturer says "we changed it so it is legal" and customs has to sort the mess out. How can they tell one technical widget from another? The process can start all over again with the "new" widget. Eaton equipment had this problem with a transmission patent and a competitor. As a note, Federal District Court isn't always equipped to handle these cases either.
When looking at what the patent covers you need to consider what the claims say. All of the claims in this patent list the first and second input power sources as being electric power. That is a lot different than one engine input and one motor input. My hunch is that it is only Toyota's electric motor design that possibly infringes. Toyota's motor itself probably contains this transmission with two inputs as an integral part. Toyota's motor then connects to an engine and another transmission that then combines the two power sources.

 

[testy_SOB]

Much ado about no thing???

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/13/0724234

Looks like someone's suing Toyota for infringing on their patent, and they're claiming that both their Hybrid Synergy Drive system and the regenerative braking system that they're using violate their patent.

If Toyota loses, the Prius might get discontinued And if that happens, guess what happens to the other hybrids, seeing as Prius = hybrid in most people's minds?

FWIW, all of the patents on diesel technology have LONG since expired

1 - IF the patent is being "infringed" then unless the infringee is stupid, they won't stop the Prius, just take their pound of flesh out of the Prius Profit.

2 - Unless the patent is very specific as to a specific engineering approach, then the idea of using gas/electric hybrids with "regenerative braking" is pretty old and well predates 1991. I recall a how-to in "The Mother Earth News" from the 70's that used an Opel 2 door, a jet engine starter motor, a lead acid battery pack and v-twin gas engine not quite a direct coorelation but the article did (by my foggy recollection) talk at length about the batteries recharging when going down hill/stopping.

 

[Wavemantoo]

If Toyota loses, the Prius might get discontinued And if that happens, guess what happens to the other hybrids, seeing as Prius = hybrid in most people's minds?

It will never happen ("... Prius might get discontinued.") !

Last Fall they were saying the same thing about Blackberrys, but they're still around ! Toyota will just have to pay for the rights if they determine the other company has valid claim.

 

[20IndigoBlue02]

there are so many patents for planet gears, that the USPTO has a section all to itself for planetary gears, section 475. I dunno how solomon can patent the "planet gears", or how it works. that is like trying to patent the wheel.

What happens is, you can take existing patents, combine them and make a new patent. Of course, you cannot violate any physical laws in the process.

 

[shagpal]

you can't patent an idea that's already patented, even if that patent is expired. you can do a new or novel approach to an old patent, but with that new idea spawns a new patent off an old patent that would be referenced in the new one.

What happens is, you can take existing patents, combine them and make a new patent. Of course, you cannot violate any physical laws in the process.

 

[Smokerr]

True, true, true
I should have realized that - the whole existence of Pumpe Duese itself was a manuever around common rail's patents. And, pumpe duese was simply an implementation of unit injection on an engine with glow plugs...

Unit injection has been around since 1930s (Gray Marine aka Detroit Diesel 71 and 53 sereies 2 cycle engines, as well as Cummins with their PT injection system.

Not sure why VW invested in the short lived PD system, maybe cost and work out of the common rail. Certainly they sold a huge amount in Europe.

When you look at what IH/Ford would have had out of the 6.0 Powerstorek if they had used VWs performance levels in the 2.0 PD enigne (402hp and 741 ft lbs of Torque) the 2.0 comes out as a really awsome engine.

Common rail is certainly less complex than the HEUI injection on the Powerstrke (more an industrial engine technolgoy than a lighter autmotive design.

 

[ronmauldin]

Case due to be decided by February 13th

The Soloman technology in the hybrid synergy drive dates back to the mid 90s when NASA went looking for technology needed in a moon rover. They teemed with a predecessor of Soloman, because they already had a patent that looked promising. Soloman then developed several more patents. You can read the Soloman version of the story at www.solomontechnologies.com

I certainly do not have the expertise to determine if the patent infringement case is valid or not... but there are a lot of people betting it is valid...

1. Patent attorneys are expensive... so Soloman first secured financing for the attorneys based on the expected outcome. This type of financing is usually only obtained when it is close to a sure bet.

2. Stock is more than 5 time the value. Before the case, stock of Soloman SOLM was trading at around 50 cents. Now it is trading for $2.72. What is interesting about this is that none of the officers of the corporation are selling stock. They have made 5x on the stock, but newsletters from Agora are project 20x or more. Hopefully we will see soon.

3. Soloman just borrowed a lot of money to buy preferred stock back. My guess is that they are expecting to win and the best investment they can make is to buy their own stock.

Well, we should see the outcome very soon. If Soloman wins, I am wondering how far reaching the decision could be. In an earlier post, someone mentioned that Toyota sold the technology to Ford and others. hmm If anybody knows more about who has licenced the Toyota technology... I would appreciate your reply.

Ron Mauldin

ps I am waiting for a diesel/electric hybrid... hope to hear news of such soon.

 

[troy_heagy]

TOYOTA USED A STANDARD AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION. The only difference is, instead of using clutches (brakes) to hold the third rotating gear stationary, they used an electric motor to do the job.

So, since auto transmissions are as common as dirt, there's no violation of anybody's patent.

 

[domboy]

TOYOTA USED A STANDARD AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION. The only difference is, instead of using clutches (brakes) to hold the third rotating gear stationary, they used an electric motor to do the job.

So, since auto transmissions are as common as dirt, there's no violation of anybody's patent.

Um... could you explain where you're getting this info? I've been under the impression that the Prius uses a CVT (continuously variable transmission) which isn't anything like a standard automatic transmission...

 

[troy_heagy]

howstuffworks.com explains that the Prius CVT is simply a planetary gear system (same thing used in automatics).

You were probably thinking Prius uses some kind of pulley/belt system, but that's not the case.

 

[Kiwi_ME]

Umm, the only similarity to a conventional auto transmission is the use of a single planetary gear set. No other common components are present.

The Prius is described as having a CVT, but in a functional context only, probably to simplify the idea to the public. There is no mechanical similarity to other automotive CVT designs.

I always like to describe the Hybrid Synergy Drive as an "automatic transmission with power buffering and braking energy recovery." The implementation around the planetary gearset could have been done in other ways, but presumably using 3-ph permanent magnet motors and power conversion electronics provided the best price/performance.

Added: bigger image in TIFF format here (1:1 from Toyota's THS-II document)

One interesting result of this is that the components of the HSD will have an almost unlimited life. I'm wondering what I can can do with a scrapped Prius.

 

[troy_heagy]

.

Look, I'm an engineer and I'm intelligent. You're not going to be able to pull the wool over my eyes & try to convince me that the Prius transmission is any thing more exotic than a Standard (albeit modified) Automatic transmission.

JUST AS my insight transmission is nothing more exotic than your standard (albeit modified) 5-speed gearshift.

I've studied the specs on both these cars. I know how they work. In terms of parts, they are 99% the same as every other car on the road, albeit with a battery thrown in the trunk. The company claiming patent infringement has no case. They can't patent something as common as a planetary gear set.

 

[TDIMeister]

Since you're soooo much more intelligent than both Toyota's and Solomon Technologies' IP lawyers, why don't YOU tell the latter that.

 

[GoFaster]

Case dismissed: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3078060

However, troy's contention that this is a "modified" conventional automatic transmission is not correct. YES, it uses a planetary gearset, but it uses it in "reverse differential" mode rather than using clutches and brakes to lock various parts of it together. The Hybrid Synergy Drive contains no clutches, no bands, no hydraulic system, no torque converter, nothing of the sort that is present in a normal automatic. It has two large motor-generators that are not present in a normal automatic. The only thing in common with the design of normal automatics is its use of a planetary gearset, and the existence of a reduction-gear-driven differential on the output side. It shares no parts other than perhaps a few bolts and standard-issue items ...

 

[AutoDiesel]

Reuters | 11:54 am, February 14, 2007

WASHINGTON (Reuters) --

A U.S. International Trade Commission administrative judge sided with Toyota Motor Corp., concluding that two of its hybrid models did not infringe a patent held by a small U.S. company, the agency said today.

U.S. Administrative Law Judge Paul Luckern said the Toyota Prius and Highlander hybrids did not infringe a patent held by Florida-based Solomon Technologies Inc., as Solomon had alleged.

Luckern said one of the claims in Solomon's patent was invalid and that "there is no domestic (U.S.) industry involving said patent."

Luckern's findings are subject to review by the full commission and could ultimately be appealed in federal court.

Solomon Technologies filed a complaint with the panel last year saying the hybrid transmission in the two popular vehicles infringed its patent related to motor and transmission systems.

If Solomon prevailed, Japan's top automaker could be banned from importing the systems and the Prius and Highlander hybrid models that they power.

A spokesman for Solomon said the company did not have an immediate comment but was expected to issue a statement later in the day.

Was the outcome going to be any different considering the
history of Solomon Technologies?

They are just looking for a free ride and in other ways are
manipulating the stock market.

 

[Mondog1]

I'm glad Toyota won.
I'm not a big fan of hybrids, since my driving habits are more suited for diesels, plus I like having torque and my RC3. If I lived close to work, 70% city driving and so on I'd consider a hybrid. Till then i'll keep dieseling on, until a hybrid diesel comes along.

 

[troy_heagy]

YES, it uses a planetary gearset, but it uses it in "reverse differential" mode rather than using clutches to lock various parts of it together

In other words, a modified automatic transmission. It has all the parts, but no clutches. (And the insight has a modified manual transmission.)


As for the motor/generators, those are not part of the transmission. Just as a diesel engine is not a transmission.


I'd love to see a Jetta TDI Hybrid. Use a tiny 45hp engine for fuel economy + a battery/electric motor for momentary power boosts. I bet you could get 70-80MPG out of that combination.

 

[GoFaster]

If a Toyota HSD is a modified conventional automatic, then a microwave oven is a modified toaster oven.

 

[Smokerr]

True, true, true
I should have realized that - the whole existence of Pumpe Duese itself was a manuever around common rail's patents. And, pumpe duese was simply an implementation of unit injection on an engine with glow plugs...

I hate to burst bubbles, but PD had nothing to do with common rail patents or visa versa.

PD is not common rail, period.

Unit injection has a long history, dating back to Gray Marine I believe (literally the direct analog to PD) and or Cummins who had a unit injectors with a different delivery system (PT).

Any patents would have run out long ago. The beauty of it is that PD allows excellent control with electronics (in line pumps more like the computerized carburetors effect wise, workable, but awkward and not as good as PD).

What PD did not allow was across the speed range effectiveness, as its engine speed affected, which common rail is not.

Detroit Diesel starting with their series 60 diesels, used the exact same system as PD (older and less precise, but same exact approach). That being electronic control of the fuel modulation in each injector via electronic means.

Again, that’s being superseded in all makes of engine with common rail because of the control it allows across the speed range, though unit injectors could put out more pressure at maximum speed (that either closed or surpassed now).

Common rails drawback is the extremely high pressures in the delivery lines to the injectors (nozzles), as well as the power it takes from the engine. The ability to control completely and the technology to make it work makes it better, but its also more complicated, the PD/Electronic controlled unit injectors are the simplest most efficient system.

Unit injectors beat out other systems, but no one would adapt them until Detroit Diesel started to beat their brains out with the electronic controlled version. Even Cat gave up and went to it (at least in the larger engines).

I am not intimately familiar with the PD system, so I don’t know if it was in Europe for a time before it came over here or what. It certainly seems a waster of effort to use that for such a short time, and then switch. It also maybe they needed to in Europe to compete, and they just had to have a transitional injection system. Certainly nothing in the engine precludes going to common rail.

 

[GoFaster]

P-D came into production in 2000 for Europe, and it will continue in production for years into the future for areas that don't have as stringent emission regulations.

Keep in mind that the first mass-production diesel engine to meet Euro 4 was a VW P-D. It was right for the times. Common-rail had not reached that level yet at the time that P-D was introduced.

 

[Kiwi_ME]

Inside view of the Hybrid Synergy Drive with the engine at the left and the final drive gearing at the top center:

A fabulous bit of mechanical design, IMO.

 

[TDIMeister]

I agree, pretty elegant in its simplicity.

 

[William J Toensing]

The model T Ford used a planatary transmission. It was introduced in late 1908 as a 1909 model. The Model T continued in production using a planatary transmission into May 1927 when production was stopped to retool for the Model A. The first fully automatic transmission, Hydramatic, was introduced on the 1940 Oldsmobile. It was a 4 speed planatary transmission with a fluid coupling. The Model T had only 2 speeds forward & was not automatic. I think patents are good for 17 years.

 

[TDIMeister]

Yes, but the Model T did not couple an internal combustion engine with two electric motors about this planetary gearset.

Much of the debate and contention about how truly innovative this and other inventions really are has to do with the fact that most patents and inventions are no longer giant-leap discoveries but rather developments of prior art. Some of the most innovative inventions have been -- and will continue be -- the ones that are so simple that one smacks himself in the head that he hadn't thought about them.

There has actually been little new fundamentally new science in the last few decades. Most build upon the bedrocks established by Newton, Einstein and countless others long before the current generation. Metaphorically, few are building completely new pyramids of fundamental science and discoveries, but rather adding stones to existing pyramids or arranging them in new and creative ways.

 

[hevster1]

3 Questions:

I guess I missed the point here but how is this TDI news?

Has anyone besides myself who is or has posted on this thread ever worked on a Prius?

Has anyone here besides myself ever had a Prius transaxle apart?

 

[TDIMeister]

To your first question, that's a good one. I could have sworn it was posted in the General Automotive section. Another moderator might have moved it here...

Your input having worked on Priuses would be enlightening.