PB_NB
Veteran Member
Hi Ed, this is what mine looks like:
With the detachable goose neck, you wouldn't see the hitch at all.
With the detachable goose neck, you wouldn't see the hitch at all.
Towing advice needed
- Thread starter Ed27
- Start date
Rrusse11
Veteran Member
"uhaul bolts to tow hook and body mostly, westfalia replaces rear bumper entirely.. uhaul screws your departure angle
and is barely suitable for a bike rack let alone any serious towing.. this is a case of getting what you pay for."
nayr
Thanks nayr, your pics have made my point. There is no comparison between
the euro style frame mounted, bumper replaced, hitch; and the "usual"
American type IMO.
Ed,
If you can find someone to make a similar custom hitch for <$300, go for it.
and is barely suitable for a bike rack let alone any serious towing.. this is a case of getting what you pay for."
nayr
Thanks nayr, your pics have made my point. There is no comparison between
the euro style frame mounted, bumper replaced, hitch; and the "usual"
American type IMO.
Ed,
If you can find someone to make a similar custom hitch for <$300, go for it.
rwthomas1
Veteran Member
Well, easy fix. My stock GM truck 07 Silverado was rated 500lbs on tongue, 1K with a weight distributing hitch. Max tow 7700lbs. Replaced stock hitch with a Curt, rated for 1K on tongue, w/o WDH, 10K pull. The hitch increased the tongue legally to 1K. The max pull remained 7700lbs. Added SumoSprings bump stop levellers. Didn't change ride, addressed squat. Those two mods were cheap, State Police inspected and signed off, commercial service for 7yrs setup like that.On this one you're wrong.
That trailer (it's right outside my back door) puts ~250lb (by my pin scale) on the ball EMPTY; gross on the trailer (empty) is under 2k. Right where it should be; about 12%.
Unlike most this one is actually built right in terms of balance right out of the factory. Yes, I checked it before plunking down the money. Who you buy a trailer from matters.
Fully loaded at 7k gross with the load properly distributed in the trailer I'm just under 1k on the ball. 15%. I moved my entire house over the space of a month or so between Florida and Tennessee (multiple trips, of course) with this rig. No 1/2 ton class truck I've ever seen will carry that safely on the stock suspension. The 1/2 ton class Chevys (e.g. 1500 Suburban, Silverado, etc) from the era of my truck (mine is a half-ton Suburban) are only rated for 500lbs on the ball weight-carrying but are also rated for 7000lbs of trailer and 12k GCWR -- it's not the receiver that can't deal with it, it's the rear suspension -- the springs are nowhere near stiff enough and the lever arm is just too long. You can bag the rear suspension or change the springs and a bunch of other stuff (but changing the springs destroys the ride quality when you're not towing, never mind violating the placarded maximums for the vehicle and thus potentially voiding your insurance if there's a wreck) or buy a weight distributing hitch. The hitch is cheaper than properly doing the suspension work (by a lot) and you get sway control at the same time.
You can safely pull a 7000lb BOAT behind that truck without weight distribution due to the aerodynamics and how a boat's load is distributed -- you can run 7% or so of a boat-and-trailer on the ball (I owned a 23'er that scaled right at 7k full of fuel and such) and you won't have trouble, never mind that nearly all boat trailers are surge braked simply because electric brakes with immersion tend not to last very long.
If you have a truck rated to carry 1k on the ball then you can pull a 7k load properly distributed without WD and it'll be fine but there are darn few 1/2 ton trucks in a stock configuration that are rated to do that. Mine sure as hell isn't.
The premise behind WD is that it takes a significant part of the load off the ball and shifts it forward; it's a leverage trick, basically. Most also come with some sort of sway control but not all. The receiver portion still has to be able to handle the total dynamic load placed on the towing vehicle (as well as however the hitch is attached to the vehicle), of course and the trailer has to be able to mount the brackets required as well. If you're going to try to pull half or more of the mass of your vehicle, as the OP appears to be intending to try to do, and especially if the tow vehicle is short-wheelbase, then stability is at a premium. You definitely do not want the trailer driving the car!
rwthomas1
Veteran Member
Watching this post closely. About to pull 1400lbs of motorcycle and open trailer 2hrs with the Jetta. US type of hitch, but it doesn't seem to deflect when I step on it or even sink the rear all that far (250lbs). Ideal tongue weight at 140lbs is within rating on drawbar. Should be good, I'll take it really easy.
RT
RT
Genesis
Top Post Dawg
You should be ok pulling an open trailer with a motorcycle on it. There's not a lot of windage there and the weight is reasonable. Just be reasonable with the speed. Those are "easy" loads
Interesting with the urethane bump stop replacement concept. That's cheap and since it doesn't wreck the ride quality unloaded I might have to add 'em....
Interesting with the urethane bump stop replacement concept. That's cheap and since it doesn't wreck the ride quality unloaded I might have to add 'em....
the MK4's solid rear axle dont squat that much, and if it does squat it dont throw off the camber like a MK6 w/IRS will.. so helper bags are less of a requirement and more of a nice to have just for adjustable dampening to stiffen up the back when you want to load the hell outta it.
I remember I found the bags when someone used em to go to Canada in a MK4 Wagon, he filled the back up with engine blocks and drove it back to USA.. despite over a thousand pounds in the back he crossed the border perfectly level and was waved right on through heh.. you come through a border crossing with a sagging suspension they gonna wanna take a good look.
I remember I found the bags when someone used em to go to Canada in a MK4 Wagon, he filled the back up with engine blocks and drove it back to USA.. despite over a thousand pounds in the back he crossed the border perfectly level and was waved right on through heh.. you come through a border crossing with a sagging suspension they gonna wanna take a good look.
Ed27
Veteran Member
Ed27
Veteran Member
Ok,
The question 1 is the euro hitches have a gross pull weight of ~3600 US LBS and the tongue of ~165 US lbs did the difference of pull weight counter balance the tongue weight?
Question 2 has anyone actually used/pulled with a Curt/Uhaul hitch and been disappointed with the weight difference?
Ed
The question 1 is the euro hitches have a gross pull weight of ~3600 US LBS and the tongue of ~165 US lbs did the difference of pull weight counter balance the tongue weight?
Question 2 has anyone actually used/pulled with a Curt/Uhaul hitch and been disappointed with the weight difference?
Ed
PB_NB
Veteran Member
Hi Ed, towing in Europe has different standards and conditions, Capping the maximum speed at 60 mph for a rig is one factor in Trailer sway reduction. Having a low tongue weight percentage like 5% seems a bit strange for our standards where we tend to want more than 10% and up to 15% of the trailer weight.
I suspect that this is one reason why the tongue weight max of the Bosal is lower.
The other may be a design limitation to prevent the goose neck from accidentally popping out. I work with detent pins and find that over time they can loose there ability to be trusted. Although one of the designs has the goose neck permanently bolted to the hitch crossframe so that should limit the tongue load.
You can see that many TDI'ers have used this hitch with great success so you have a good user experience base to draw from.
I guess that is a question for Bosal or Westfalia.
When I had mine made, we took the connection design from this style of hitch in how it connects to the chassis. Then we added the receiver based on what we see in North America. This was driven by our inability to source a hitch to pull our trailer.
I had a little Curt hitch on my near new 2000 GTI that we pulled a little 1,000 lbs Coleman tent trailer around and it did okay. The weird part is that the car was pushed down in the back like we were overloaded. The car had a VR6 in it so there was no issue with moving it around and with the VR6 brakes stopping the extra 1,000 lbs was no problem. Just very squatty in the rear. I had a 4 pin trailer plug installed and this kept blowing fuses in the car, it seems that the parking lights are split into 2 x 5 amp fuses which caused half the parking lights in the car to be out most of the time.
One interesting thing to note is that when we got the little Curt hitch, it was rated for 1,500 lbs and 150 lbs tongue. So something must have changed in the 15 years since we had ours.
I didn't really do anything else with this rig and sold it a few years after we got it and went to a Vanagon conversion.
When we did up the Beetle, we wanted the rig to sit level and focused on the various weights much more than before. I also had the TDI club members to draw info from. We were very concerned about stopping and control. We already had a ton of power so that helped.
With anything, we didn't want to run at the maximum so we went a bit extreme so we always had a buffer.
I hope this helps a bit!
I suspect that this is one reason why the tongue weight max of the Bosal is lower.
The other may be a design limitation to prevent the goose neck from accidentally popping out. I work with detent pins and find that over time they can loose there ability to be trusted. Although one of the designs has the goose neck permanently bolted to the hitch crossframe so that should limit the tongue load.
You can see that many TDI'ers have used this hitch with great success so you have a good user experience base to draw from.
I guess that is a question for Bosal or Westfalia.
When I had mine made, we took the connection design from this style of hitch in how it connects to the chassis. Then we added the receiver based on what we see in North America. This was driven by our inability to source a hitch to pull our trailer.
I had a little Curt hitch on my near new 2000 GTI that we pulled a little 1,000 lbs Coleman tent trailer around and it did okay. The weird part is that the car was pushed down in the back like we were overloaded. The car had a VR6 in it so there was no issue with moving it around and with the VR6 brakes stopping the extra 1,000 lbs was no problem. Just very squatty in the rear. I had a 4 pin trailer plug installed and this kept blowing fuses in the car, it seems that the parking lights are split into 2 x 5 amp fuses which caused half the parking lights in the car to be out most of the time.
One interesting thing to note is that when we got the little Curt hitch, it was rated for 1,500 lbs and 150 lbs tongue. So something must have changed in the 15 years since we had ours.
I didn't really do anything else with this rig and sold it a few years after we got it and went to a Vanagon conversion.
When we did up the Beetle, we wanted the rig to sit level and focused on the various weights much more than before. I also had the TDI club members to draw info from. We were very concerned about stopping and control. We already had a ton of power so that helped.
With anything, we didn't want to run at the maximum so we went a bit extreme so we always had a buffer.
I hope this helps a bit!
Ed27
Veteran Member
PB NB,
Exactly my thoughts on not having the maximum weight. Thank you for the personal experiences with the Curt hitch. I am finding that diy custom hitch are the end result of not having a readily available hitch for the weights needed to tow. On the other hand, I have read posts of people reinforcing the bolt points of the Curt/Uhaul hitch have not had any problems but have stayed within the maximum trailer weight.
Ed
Exactly my thoughts on not having the maximum weight. Thank you for the personal experiences with the Curt hitch. I am finding that diy custom hitch are the end result of not having a readily available hitch for the weights needed to tow. On the other hand, I have read posts of people reinforcing the bolt points of the Curt/Uhaul hitch have not had any problems but have stayed within the maximum trailer weight.
Ed
nicklockard
Torque Dorque
This subject raises a lot of debate and discussion.
Fundamentally, safe towing is about few factors:
Mass distribution is pretty simple: you want the mass to be aggregated as much as possible, and the center of gravity to be just forward of the trailer's axle centerline. This will yield maximum stability. For *most* trailer designs, the exact position that yields 'acceptable' stability is when >7% of the trailer's net mass is on the tow ball (most people simplify this to say "10% of load mass", but it's a bad over-simplification, and I don't like it. I prefer to do the actual math using spreadsheets.
Wind effects and road conditions aren't much in our control, but we can slow down to give us more time to predict, avoid, and react appropriately if needed.
If I had time, I'd start a YouTube channel on this topic, as I feel there is an ENORMOUS amount of agenda-pushing, commercial propaganda, and value-less gnashing of teeth on this topic. It's just 5th grade physics mostly.
Be safe, slow down, get the most safe equipment you can afford to, study it, and make yourself checklists, and respect your personal limits.
Fundamentally, safe towing is about few factors:
- Speed
- Physics of mass distribution relative to linked bodies
- Math of 2nd order levers
- Wind effects, road conditions
Mass distribution is pretty simple: you want the mass to be aggregated as much as possible, and the center of gravity to be just forward of the trailer's axle centerline. This will yield maximum stability. For *most* trailer designs, the exact position that yields 'acceptable' stability is when >7% of the trailer's net mass is on the tow ball (most people simplify this to say "10% of load mass", but it's a bad over-simplification, and I don't like it. I prefer to do the actual math using spreadsheets.
Wind effects and road conditions aren't much in our control, but we can slow down to give us more time to predict, avoid, and react appropriately if needed.
If I had time, I'd start a YouTube channel on this topic, as I feel there is an ENORMOUS amount of agenda-pushing, commercial propaganda, and value-less gnashing of teeth on this topic. It's just 5th grade physics mostly.
Be safe, slow down, get the most safe equipment you can afford to, study it, and make yourself checklists, and respect your personal limits.
VR6's got the worst brakes and suspension of em all.. same as the 2.Slow for some stupid reason.
The Tounge Limit on the hitch is a factor of safety on rear axle/suspension.. not strength of the gooseneck, that thing mounts solid w/no slop or play at all like a normal US receiver hitch.. I left mine on permanently because I figured it'd **** someone's front end up if they rear ended me.. it feels like its a solid part of that car thats for sure.
If you tow bag it up a little bit, and dont ride with a bunch of crap in the car so the car is still under its gross rated weight you can push that tongue weight up a little bit, and honestly I'd rather be too tongue heavy than light.. but ultimately everyone is responsible for their load and its saftey, so the onus is on you to have a properly loaded rig thats not going to put anyone else at risk.
The Tounge Limit on the hitch is a factor of safety on rear axle/suspension.. not strength of the gooseneck, that thing mounts solid w/no slop or play at all like a normal US receiver hitch.. I left mine on permanently because I figured it'd **** someone's front end up if they rear ended me.. it feels like its a solid part of that car thats for sure.
If you tow bag it up a little bit, and dont ride with a bunch of crap in the car so the car is still under its gross rated weight you can push that tongue weight up a little bit, and honestly I'd rather be too tongue heavy than light.. but ultimately everyone is responsible for their load and its saftey, so the onus is on you to have a properly loaded rig thats not going to put anyone else at risk.
Rrusse11
Veteran Member
I did get rear ended with my Euro swan neck, it helped. As nayr points out
there is NO slop. The removable neck is a waste of money IMO, as I've
referenced with my current setup, it bolts on rock solid, and I just leave it
in place. Get the tongue weight at a minimum of 10% and then adjust your
rear suspension to suit; shocks, springs, spacers, whatever. You want it
level.
Upgrade your brakes, and have a good clutch, it's nice to have
some extra power. Stick to the speed limits and learn to drive an extra
couple 100 yds ahead. Anticipation will go a long way to alleviating potential
problems IMO. I'll cheerfully admit to still learning how to drive a trailer.
Ed27
Veteran Member
Nicklockard,
"Be safe, slow down, get the most safe equipment you can afford to, study it, and make yourself checklists, and respect your personal limits." Exactly!!
You need to do a YouTube on it!!!
"Be safe, slow down, get the most safe equipment you can afford to, study it, and make yourself checklists, and respect your personal limits." Exactly!!
You need to do a YouTube on it!!!
Rrusse11
Veteran Member
Oh I got totalled, stopped in a line of traffic in a construction zone, sandwiched
front and back. Idiot in the truck managed to damage 6 vehicles.
But the hitch certainly helped lessen the rear intrusion. Nobody hurt,
but it wasn't a good day.
front and back. Idiot in the truck managed to damage 6 vehicles.
But the hitch certainly helped lessen the rear intrusion. Nobody hurt,
but it wasn't a good day.
rwthomas1
Veteran Member
Hello, sorry for the delayed response. So how'd it tow? Reasonably well.
Hitch is a US type class 1 hitch, standard stuff, bolted up to the tow ring on the passenger side and to the rear substructure on the driver side, with two legs of steel also leading back to the spare tire well sheetmetal and through bolted. There are substantial backing plates on the inside of the trunk in all locations to spread the load. Class 1 is limited to 2000lbs tow, 200lbs on the tongue. This setup does not deflect in any way, and appears stronger than I expected it to be. Is it a Euro Bosal? No. But its not complete crap either.
I was limited to what I could get, and time constraints. I used a U-Haul motorcycle trailer. U-Haul gear is hugely overbuilt for the rental industry. 800lbs for a single empty bike trailer is absurd, and there was no way to change the location of the motorcycle on the trailer given the way the chock setup is for the front wheel. Most bike trailers are adjustable, so tongue weight can be optimized. But not this one. I'm quite sure I was way over the 200lbs class 1 limits once loaded.
Rear suspension squatted a bit, but no more than if I had a couple 250lbs dudes in the back seat. It didn't look bad there was maybe an inch more gap over the front tire than the rear. What I did find interesting is the rear bearings got quite warm running loaded like this. I know this as after 30 miles or so at highway speeds, I coasted to a stop, and checked things. The hubs were probably 120-130*F (I check equipment daily and have a "calibrated hand" ) Hotter than I expected. So it you tow heavy with a FWD vehicle, keep and eye on the rear bearings. Can't hurt. Mine are original with 300K on them.
Towing you definitely know the load is there. Acceleration isn't bad, and simply winding out each shift to 3500rpm or so does the job. Keep the turbo in the sweet spot and don't lug it on hills. Hell, don't lug it at all. I tried to maintain 2500-3000rpm when pulling grades. I have a taller 717 5th gear. If I was towing regularly, no way would I have done that mod. Gap between 4th and 5th is too much. Stock would probably be much better, but if towing at the limits, I'd consider an even lower 5th gear ratio ( if available) or even a lower ring&pinion. I was able to maintain 65mph on the flat ground and 60mph climbing hills, downshifting to 4th. Saw a max of 73mph on downhills and the trailer was rock stable behind me.
Stopping requires some care and planning so as not to over work the brakes. They did fine, but I go out of my way to be gentle on them as much as possible. Towing regularly, I'd have a top shelf brake controller and trailer brakes. I have a Tekonsha Prodigy in my tow rig and love it.
Lastly, if I was towing with a TDI regularly I'd have an EGT and water temp gauges. I know from pulling with big diesels that simply limiting how much "pedal" I apply, and keeping the rpms up will keep the EGT's in check. Setup with an EGT I likely could have pushed much harder.
I'm sorry I didn't take any pics, I was crunched for time. I have a pic of the loaded trailer, and can take one of the hitch if anyone is interested.
32mpg, trailer empty for half the trip.
Hope this helps someone!
RT
Hitch is a US type class 1 hitch, standard stuff, bolted up to the tow ring on the passenger side and to the rear substructure on the driver side, with two legs of steel also leading back to the spare tire well sheetmetal and through bolted. There are substantial backing plates on the inside of the trunk in all locations to spread the load. Class 1 is limited to 2000lbs tow, 200lbs on the tongue. This setup does not deflect in any way, and appears stronger than I expected it to be. Is it a Euro Bosal? No. But its not complete crap either.
I was limited to what I could get, and time constraints. I used a U-Haul motorcycle trailer. U-Haul gear is hugely overbuilt for the rental industry. 800lbs for a single empty bike trailer is absurd, and there was no way to change the location of the motorcycle on the trailer given the way the chock setup is for the front wheel. Most bike trailers are adjustable, so tongue weight can be optimized. But not this one. I'm quite sure I was way over the 200lbs class 1 limits once loaded.
Rear suspension squatted a bit, but no more than if I had a couple 250lbs dudes in the back seat. It didn't look bad there was maybe an inch more gap over the front tire than the rear. What I did find interesting is the rear bearings got quite warm running loaded like this. I know this as after 30 miles or so at highway speeds, I coasted to a stop, and checked things. The hubs were probably 120-130*F (I check equipment daily and have a "calibrated hand"
) Hotter than I expected. So it you tow heavy with a FWD vehicle, keep and eye on the rear bearings. Can't hurt. Mine are original with 300K on them.Towing you definitely know the load is there. Acceleration isn't bad, and simply winding out each shift to 3500rpm or so does the job. Keep the turbo in the sweet spot and don't lug it on hills. Hell, don't lug it at all. I tried to maintain 2500-3000rpm when pulling grades. I have a taller 717 5th gear. If I was towing regularly, no way would I have done that mod. Gap between 4th and 5th is too much. Stock would probably be much better, but if towing at the limits, I'd consider an even lower 5th gear ratio ( if available) or even a lower ring&pinion. I was able to maintain 65mph on the flat ground and 60mph climbing hills, downshifting to 4th. Saw a max of 73mph on downhills and the trailer was rock stable behind me.
Stopping requires some care and planning so as not to over work the brakes. They did fine, but I go out of my way to be gentle on them as much as possible. Towing regularly, I'd have a top shelf brake controller and trailer brakes. I have a Tekonsha Prodigy in my tow rig and love it.
Lastly, if I was towing with a TDI regularly I'd have an EGT and water temp gauges. I know from pulling with big diesels that simply limiting how much "pedal" I apply, and keeping the rpms up will keep the EGT's in check. Setup with an EGT I likely could have pushed much harder.
I'm sorry I didn't take any pics, I was crunched for time. I have a pic of the loaded trailer, and can take one of the hitch if anyone is interested.
32mpg, trailer empty for half the trip.
Hope this helps someone!
RT
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rwthomas1
Veteran Member
Interesting with the urethane bump stop replacement concept. That's cheap and since it doesn't wreck the ride quality unloaded I might have to add 'em....[/QUOTE]
I had another tow rig with airbags in it. They suck. Constantly adjusting pressure. I didn't do the onboard compressor. Too expensive. Bags work great, just too much attention required.
The bump stop type, or "jounce" type helpers are fantastic. Timbren and Firestone make units intended for constant loads, trucks with plows, toolboxes, utility bodies, etc. SumoSprings are progressive in nature. They change the unloaded ride just slightly. But they work wonderfully when loaded up. No more squat, body roll, etc. Also no adjusting, maintenance, etc. If you tow, and they fit your vehicle, buy them.
RT
I had another tow rig with airbags in it. They suck. Constantly adjusting pressure. I didn't do the onboard compressor. Too expensive. Bags work great, just too much attention required.
The bump stop type, or "jounce" type helpers are fantastic. Timbren and Firestone make units intended for constant loads, trucks with plows, toolboxes, utility bodies, etc. SumoSprings are progressive in nature. They change the unloaded ride just slightly. But they work wonderfully when loaded up. No more squat, body roll, etc. Also no adjusting, maintenance, etc. If you tow, and they fit your vehicle, buy them.
RT
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nicklockard
Torque Dorque
Oh, it would be mostly physics lessons on 2nd order levers, angular inertia, conservation of momentum and oscillatory amplifiers and dampers. There' be like 5 subscribers. The main thing most people (don't want to hear) should do is just SLOW the heck down. It's 5x more important than % tongue loading.
In North America, the truck manufacturers have worked really hard to spread FUD and preach 10% tongue load as if it's gospel. it's no where close to enough knowledge to even start.
My opinion is that people who lack time or interest to learn but still want to tow big loads should:
- Buy a sway prevention hitch like Hensley or Propride
- Use the weight distribution bars (use care to choose mild settings for unibody frames)
- Install electric brakes and an OBD-integrated brake controller like Tucson DirecLink
- Respect the axle weight, gross vehicle weight and combined gross vehicle weight limits.
- and slow the HECK down. Never faster than 65mph.
Ed27
Veteran Member
RWThomas1,
Thanks for the sharing the experience. The choices of camper are limited but I want the safest choice with the most comfort. And I can only get that if I used the brain trust here.
Ed
Thanks for the sharing the experience. The choices of camper are limited but I want the safest choice with the most comfort. And I can only get that if I used the brain trust here.
Ed
Ed27
Veteran Member
Nicklockard,
If you would custom it to towing I think you would be VERY surprised on the number of views if not subs you would get on YouTube. From my searches on the internet YT included the Bigger Is Better tow mindset is predominate. Also, I drive slow as it is.
Ed
If you would custom it to towing I think you would be VERY surprised on the number of views if not subs you would get on YouTube. From my searches on the internet YT included the Bigger Is Better tow mindset is predominate. Also, I drive slow as it is.
Ed
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Can someone confirm that the Tesla adapter will work with the Bosal towbar (detachable version)?
Hotrodhornet
Member
Yes, I have one on my wagon