Totally retarded... -7.4KW

[68Vdub]

2005 tdi Jetta PD BEW 185k manual trans.

This is my second timing belt job on this car, both without VCDS... I know.

Thanks to a fellow TDI Club member, I was able to borrow his cable and confirm what I thought was wrong.

I've been having hard start, strange power, worse fuel mileage issues etc. since the belt change. Once I get the car started, it runs somewhat normal but it's my wifes ride so I'm not as familiar with it as she is.

Anyway, checked block 004 with the engine at normal operating temp and at idle. The reading was -7.4KW... holy crap... this can't be right? I read through a bunch of info and watched a few You Tube videos on how to adjust the torsion. I'm completely retarded, in more ways then one, so I need to adjust my cam sproket counter clockwise or the cam clockwise to advance the timing. Problem is, the 3 bolts are as far as they can go to the right of the slots. I have no more adjustment available. Am I off a tooth on the belt? I adjusted it in the opposite direction a smidge for grins and it wouldn't start.

What do you think?

Thanks in advance.

 

[turbocharged798]

You'll have to loosen the TB and move it over a tooth or two. Theres no way around it.

Did you use proper lock down tools when you did the timing belt? They should get it close to in range.

 

[scurvy]

This is my second timing belt job on this car, both without VCDS... I know.
...
I need to adjust my cam sproket counter clockwise or the cam clockwise to advance the timing. Problem is, the 3 bolts are as far as they can go to the right of the slots.
...
What do you think?

Technically you don't need VCDS to do a timing belt on a PD, but it certainly helps afterwards to check your torsion value. When I did mine the torsion value was +0.5º which is good enough for me - that's much less than a tooth off and it should go slightly negative as the belt wears & stretches over its lifespan.

Sounds like you didn't use the correct lock-down tools or didn't rotate it by hand 2 revolutions and make sure the tools fit back in where they should go after the belt was on. If you used a paint marker at all you need a cockslap and to get the car to a guru so the TB can be done correctly.

 

[68Vdub]

Thanks for the words of encouragement Scurvy...

I bought both timing belt kits and tools from Diesel Geek and did use all the supplied lock down tools during the job. I did rotate the engine twice by hand when I was done, but did not re-install the lock downs as my instructions did not indicate I needed to.

I'm no guru but from what I remember, the slot for the cam lock is wide enough to have it locked down and the belt to be on the pully one tooth off. As specified in the instructions I was reading from MOGolf "Loosen the three 13mm cam pulley bolts, and rotate the cam pulley fully counterclockwise until the bolts hit the ends of their slots."

Either way, I believe it has been confirmed that I am off one tooth and will get to fixing her.

I'll report back when I have it set properly.

Thanks for the help.

 

[AARodriguez Corp.]

I just finished doing my bew, with no adjustment, using the lock down tools, I have a cold start value of +0.5kw and a up to temp value of +1.0kw

 

[PDJetta]

"Problem is, the 3 bolts are as far as they can go to the right of the slots. I have no more adjustment available."

You are off by at least one tooth, perhaps two.

Does it look like this:



That's mine when I changed the timing belt, but after I torqued down the engine mount. And I did use the lockdown tools. You can have the cam and crankshaft at TDC, but have the cam sprocket off a tooth or two so you are out of adjustment in the slots. I basically got into this predicament by following the step to "rotate the sprocket fully to the left in adjustment slots" when putting on the belt. I should have left the sprocket in the middle of the slots. The next day before I ran the car I fixed it.

You will have to open everything up (remove the crank pulley and belt cover so you can use both the crankshaft and camshaft lockdown tools) and work around the engine mount. Release the belt tensioner after the cam and crank are locked and then remove the three camshaft sprocket adjustment bolts and lift the sprocket out of the timing belt and off of the camshaft hub. Rotate the cam sprocket one or two teeth clockwise in relation to its previous position and install it again on the camshaft hub by placing it inside the timing belt first. It should then be positioned correctly and button everything up like you normally would. I could not get a torque wrench onto the tensioner nut because the engine mount was installed. I just got the tensioner nut firmly tight after tensioning the belt. Don't forget to rotate the engine by hand a couple of turns CW and then recheck the timing with the lockdown tools.

--Nate

 

[68Vdub]

Nate, sounds like I did the same thing you did. Yes mine does look like the picture.

I'm in the middle of doing exactly what you had mentioned. One tooth should give me enough addjustment judging by the "small movements make a big adjustment" comment I've read quite a bit. I'm still a little baffled at how it ran as well as it did with it off a tooth. Can't wait to see what it's like with the timing on.

I'll report back when I'm done.

Thanks.

 

[Growler]

just because the cam pulley is off a tooth, doesnt mean that the timing is off a whole tooth.

the pulley moves independent of the cam/timing when the 3 bolts are loosened.

do your best to start the adjustment off with the lock pin in the center of the range and you shouldn't have too much trouble getting it just right with the vcds to play with.

 

[scurvy]

Thanks for the words of encouragement

No problem

Here's one trick that really helped me get the belt back on with the pulleys lining up the way they should - leave the lower roller out until you've got the belt on.

Good luck with re-timing.

 

[AARodriguez Corp.]

Here's one trick that really helped me get the belt back on with the pulleys lining up the way they should - leave the lower roller out until you've got the belt on.
Good luck with re-timing.

This guy knows what he is talking about

 

[PDJetta]

Now that I recall, I think the adjustment slot width in the camshaft sprocket is equal to the length of two timing belt teeth. But since you should have the adjustment at TDC at approximately center in the slot, you are most likely one timing belt tooth off. Theoretically you could leave it that way if you had enough adjustment to get the torsional value correct.

--Nate

 

[Growler]

No problem

Here's one trick that really helped me get the belt back on with the pulleys lining up the way they should - leave the lower roller out until you've got the belt on.

Good luck with re-timing.

This works, but so does FULLY loosening the tensioner by inserting the triangle pin in the hole with the tensioner rotated fully counter-clockwise and rotating the tensioner fully clockwise with pin in hole.

since he has the motor mount in place, he will need to bend the pin to get it in the hole, then turn the tensioner fully clockwise to loosen it all the way, snug the nut down so it holds the tensioner in this position, reset the cam sprocket location in the belt teeth to the center of the adjustment range, and them put it all back together.

with the tensioner fully loosened this way, the belt practically slips over the water pump sprocket like butter even when the lower roller is installed and there is little to no slack between the crank/roller/tensioner/cam pulley string.

the tensioner works wonderfully when used as designed.

 

[manual_tranny]

the tensioner works wonderfully when used as designed.

... and as I found out on my first PD timing belt change... it will make you insane if you neglect to use that tiny little key-lock...

 

[scurvy]

This works, but so does FULLY loosening the tensioner by inserting the triangle pin in the hole with the tensioner rotated fully counter-clockwise and rotating the tensioner fully clockwise with pin in hole.

That technique didn't work for me in January. I'll check back in 155k km and let you know how it went.

 

[AARodriguez Corp.]

That technique didn't work for me in January. I'll check back in 155k km and let you know how it went.

Ditto! I'm sure I'm opening myself up to a few people telling me that I did something wrong, but with the tensioner installed, and rotated fully counter clockwise it put the tensioner in a position where it was making the belt much to short.

With the tensioner turned only about 1/2 way the belt was ALMOST able to get on, but it still wouldn't reach around the water pump pulley. When I removed that lower roller though, the belt slipped on with great ease and the rest of the job was a walk in the park.

 

[RT1]

One thing I noticed in replacing my T-belt is getting the tension equalized on the water pump side and the tensioner side. The crank sprocket is fixed and it can end up feeling sloppy on the WP side if you're out of adjusting range on the cam sprocket. Solution, just lift the belt and move the cam sprocket. It doesn't matter where it's positioned as long as the cam shaft and crank shaft are locked in place. That's the mechanical relationship you have to maintain. I vote for installing the small roller last too. Much easier.

 

[Growler]

Newsboys, sounds like you werent doing it right..well, you got it done, thats the most important...

you loosen tensioner nut. rotate tensioner fully counter clockwise to expose the hole for the triangle pin. insert the pin in the hole.

then with the pin inserted in the hole, you rotate the rensioner FULLY clockwise. and use the nut to hold the tensioner in this position. this makes the tensioner fully retract and you should then be able to easily slip the belt over the waterpump with the cam pulley bolts loose.

 

[AARodriguez Corp.]

sounds like you werent doing it right..
you loosen tensioner nut. rotate tensioner fully counter clockwise to expose the hole for the triangle pin. insert the pin in the hole.
then with the pin inserted in the hole, you rotate the rensioner FULLY clockwise. and use the nut to hold the tensioner in this position. this makes the tensioner fully retract and you should then be able to easily slip the belt over the waterpump with the cam pulley bolts loose.

Fully counterclockwise only made it tighter.

This is not being asked to the peanut gallery, looking for a guru (growler or jason etc) answer please.
So do you think I did it a "different way", or am I looking at failure possibly in the future? I know my timing is good, and after the belt was put on I installed the lower roller and rotated the tensioner clockwise until the pointer was lined up in the slot, the tightened it.

 

[Growler]

As long as you got the belt on all of the pulleys, set the tensioner pointer properly, and the locks went in as they should after two full rotations of the engine by hand, you are good to go and didn't do anything wrong.

I used to do the leave the lower roller off trick and it is a valid way to get it done, but once MoGolf showed me and explained it to me how to use the tensioner to get the belt loose enough to slip on & off of the waterpump, I am advocating that just so it gets out there more, not saying that the leave the lower roller off method is a bad way to do it.

perhaps I wasn't clear that when you go to rotate the tensioner fully counter-clockwise, you also need to have the cam pulley bolts loose so it can rotate freely as well. I have never had trouble getting the tensioner to rotate enough that direction to be able to install the pin. and you only need to get it counter clockwise long enough to install the pin, then you are rotating it fully clockwise and holding it there with the pin in by snugging the nut down a little.

Is that what you were having trouble doing when you say you were having the belt get tighter? you couldnt rotate it counter clockwise enough to install the pin?

Newsboys, it sounds like you just did it a "Different way" its not wrong. motor on.

 

[68Vdub]

+ 0.5KW and happy.

So I knew I was off a tooth or two because I was maxed out in adjustment with the bolts as far to the right of the slots as they would go and still had a retarded timing of -7.4KW.

So I probably shouldn't be posting this, but this is what I did:

With access to the cam sproket cleared out by moving the coolant and power steering reservoirs out of the way as well as removing the upper intake tube from the intake to the top of the intercooler, I marked the timing belt and cam sproket with a paint pen (wifes fingernail polish) so I knew which way I had to move the belt. I loosened the nut on the tensioner and rotated it couter clockwise with an allen wrench enough to slack the belt so I could remove the cam sproket with the belt still on it. With the sproket pulled away from the engine I was able to lift the belt and rotate the sproket one tooth clockwise in the belt. This should allow me enough adjustment to get within specs with VCDS, I hope. I re-installed the cam sproket and loosely installed the 3 bolts. I then adjusted the tensioner clockwise to align the pointer and slot and snugged up the nut. Then I tightened the 3 cam sproket bolts and repositioned the reservoirs and intake tube that I removed before. With my fingers crossed, I bumped the key to turn over the engine a few times to make sure it would spin. It did spin so I started it and let it warm up.

With VCDS plugged in my torsion value was still at -7.4KW as I hoped because I hadn't done any adjustments yet. I took my first adjustment all the way to the right of the slots to give me a maximum advanced reading. I got +8.6KW. Perfect. I was now in a window of -7.4KW and +8.6KW. I played with adjusting it about 6 more times to finally get it to +0.5KW. Good enough for me.

Disclaimer: This worked for me but it may not for you. Please always use the proper crank and cam locks while performing timing belt repair work or serious engine failure can result.

Thanks for the help and thanks to conan for the use of the VCDS cable.

TDI Club rocks !!

 

[Growler]

Congrats, and thanks for the disclaimer about using the proper lockdown tools.

 

[AARodriguez Corp.]

perhaps I wasn't clear that when you go to rotate the tensioner fully counter-clockwise, you also need to have the cam pulley bolts loose so it can rotate freely as well.

Yes, I had the 3 small cam bolts loose.

I have never had trouble getting the tensioner to rotate enough that direction to be able to install the pin.
Is that what you were having trouble doing when you say you were having the belt get tighter?
Newsboys, it sounds like you just did it a "Different way" its not wrong. motor on.

My wording must not have been very clear, I just woke up, very very long night. I was having trouble getting the belt loose enough to install it until I removed the lower roller.

 

[AARodriguez Corp.]

growler, what is your opinion on dialing the cam in to achieve an advance between +3kw and +4.9kw? Am I better off at +1.0, or 0.0?

 

[Growler]

On a BEW I like to shoot for between -0.5 & 0.0 when I set one.

Franko6 can tell you what to set either a BEW or a BRM at..

I have never heard of anyone running one at anything other than very close to 0.0 on a PD.

 

[scurvy]

IIRC Rocketchip (jsrmonster) said he always wants PDs set to as close to 0.0 on cold start as possible. It's in a post somewhere on the forums which a search should be able to turn up fairly quickly if you'd like his direct opinion on the subject and not just my hearsay.

 

[AARodriguez Corp.]

On a BEW I like to shoot for between -0.5 & 0.0 when I set one.
I have never heard of anyone running one at anything other than very close to 0.0 on a PD.

I must be misunderstanding this thread

TDI CAM TIMING ADJUSTMENT
edit
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=215202

 

[scurvy]

I must be misunderstanding this thread

TDI CAM TIMING ADJUSTMENT

This is all you need to know from that thread.

tl;dr version: set your cam-to-crank timing (aka torsion value) as close to 0.0º as you can get it on a cold start.

Caveat - if your cam-to-crank timing is out of whack, you will still get 0.0º torsion value as well as a noisy, gutless car what may be throwing cam sensor & MAF codes. Checking it mechanically - like when you do two revolutions & check that the tools all go back in by hand while doing a TB - is always the best idea to start with.

 

[manual_tranny]

you loosen tensioner nut. rotate tensioner fully counter clockwise to expose the hole for the triangle pin. insert the pin in the hole.

then with the pin inserted in the hole, you rotate the rensioner FULLY clockwise.

Fully counterclockwise only made it tighter.

Newzboys, I think counterclockwise is supposed to make it tighter until you get the pin in it. The pin is necessary because without it, the tensioner won't ever get loose.

It sounds like you weren't using the pin or something.. sorry if I missed it if you said you used the pin properly.

 

[AARodriguez Corp.]

Newzboys, I think counterclockwise is supposed to make it tighter until you get the pin in it. The pin is necessary because without it, the tensioner won't ever get loose.

It sounds like you weren't using the pin or something.. sorry if I missed it if you said you used the pin properly.

No I think you are on the right track.

I thought I was supposed to turn it counter clockwise all the way and then pin it. Not correct?

 

[Growler]

Newsboys, you are correct. you have to turn it fully counterclockwise to get the pin in the hole, you cannot see the hole until you turn it far enough.