Timing going to 0 in basic settings

[jaredaggie]

great thread, ? on temp sensor

I read this thread, very helful... I am not experienced with vagcom, but am trying to learn as much as I can. I went and tested my timing, and its quite a bit off. Thanks to this thread, I understand how to adjust it... the question I have now is regarding the temp sensor. Is this the same sensor that would tell the ECM that the temp is cold and to activate the glow plugs? I have just tested my glow plugs and theyre fine, also I have a new glow plug harness which tests fine. I have a CEL that vag com identifies to be "Address 01: Engine Labels: 038-906-012-AGR.lbl
Part No: 038 906 012 BD
Component: 1,9l R4 EDC G000SG 2507
Coding: 00002
Shop #: WSC 00066
1 Fault Found:
16764 - Glow Plug/Heater (Q6) Circuit: Malfunction
P0380 - 35-00 - -
Readiness: 0 0 1 1 1 "

I figure one of you will know if this could be related?

 

[l_c]

Jared, I think there are two things in question here. There's a temp sensor inside the Fuel Injection Pump (that's used for the fuel injection quantity and/or timing advance to run properly) ... i.e. Fuel Temperature;

There's also the Coolant Temperature Sensor (near your coolant thermostat), that's used to decide the details about Glow Plug Pre-glow, the temperature gauge in your instrument cluster (in the dashboard), etc.

And there are some Glow Plugs whose sole job is to heat up your coolant, when it's cold (when you first start the engine) ... they're generally not tested by the ECM.

The main Glow Plugs (aside from the ones I mention above) are heating inside your cylinders (in the combustion chambers ... they are tested by the ECM. There's Pre-Glow (if you're in a really cold area), as well as Afterglow (i.e. once the engine has started running ... that continues until you rev above a certain RPM level).

I don't know (without looking it up) what the malfunction (fault) code you posted really means. There's a Glow Plug 101 thread on this site (forums.tdiclub.com) that will tell you everything and more. (If you go there, be sure to click on Printable version ... then click on Display 100 Posts on one page ... if you're reading it. Otherwise, there's a "search this Thread" feature that can help locate specific bits that you want.

Here's the GP 101 thread link -- http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=79819
Good luck; Larry.

 

[heykw]

my timing shows 29-34 it is near or just under the red line is my timing to advanced or retarded?

 

[whitedog]

It's retarded, but you need to have the temperature as well to know exactly where it will fall on the graph. Get the timing advanced.

 

[CoolAirVw]

This is very good info.... more on the following thread.....

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=240450&highlight=revisited

these two threads should be combined.

 

[gkm24]

I have just changed the pump and injectors on my T4 Transporter 2.5 TDI. It is running well but want to check the timing with the TDI Checker. When I get the TDI Checker on screen and click to select engine type, it does not show AJT engine, which is what is in my van. Can anyone shed some light on this please?

 

[trader_reed]

On my ACV 2.5 TDI I wanted to check the injector pump timing but after I got it all set up my VCDS said the timing was too retarded to log. Is this a sign that my timing belt is streched or just that the last time the belt was changed the injector pump wasn't timed properly? When I switch to basic settings I can hear the sound from the engine change. My engine runs well normally and in basic settings with no smoke.

 

[l_c]

Trader, it could easily be that the pump timing sprocket adjustment wasn't done properly, at the TB change.
It's the static timing. Mine was off too.
It's okay that the engine runs differently in basic settings, mine does that.
It temporarily removes the dynamic timing.
Larry

 

[trader_reed]

Thanks for the reply Larry, Do you have any insight on how to adjust the timing sproket? How long will it take the aveage mech.?

 

[MOGolf]

I assume you're driving a Transporter.

You need to:

• remove radiator grille
• remove the mounting bracket for the charge air cooler
• remove the securing bolts for the lock carrier
• fold the lock carrier with radiator forwards
• (all the above is easier typed than done and varies by model year)
• Connect VCDS (VAG-Com) or equivalent. If using VCDS, go to basic settings and bring up the TDI Timing graph for your model year and engine
• insert a hex key into the idler roller
• with engine ngine running, loosen the nut on the idler roller
• adjust the roller until the timing is within spec
• tighten nut to 20 Nm
• reassemble, tightening the lock carrier bolts to 25 Nm and the charge air cooler bolts to 10 Nm.

This assumes everything was lined up correctly when the belt was last changed.

 

[trader_reed]

thx for that MOGolf! I'll besure to take pics and post back when done.

 

[trader_reed]

It was a bit trickier than expected, the last non TDI savvy tech had it off a good bit. I'd to make a good few adjustment to it to get it where the belt was at the right tension and the timing was as the VCDS said "dead-on".

I'm confident its right now and want to thank the TDIClub as I learned a great deal here and couldn't have done it right with out it!

 

[vegtech]

i just did a belt on an 03 golf and trying to set the timing with vcds and block 2 reads 255 i try to adjust it an d it does not change the 255 i have mved it to both ends of the slots and everywhere in between it still says 255 Help please

 

[MOGolf]

i just did a belt on an 03 golf and trying to set the timing with vcds and block 2 reads 255 i try to adjust it an d it does not change the 255 i have mved it to both ends of the slots and everywhere in between it still says 255 Help please

You didn't properly pin the pump when you did the timing belt. Go back to setting the crank at TDC, locking the cam, taking the cam sprocket loose, belt loose, set the pump to locking position, make sure the pump lock pin goes into the hole and not to side of it, loosen the pump sprocket bolts, set the belt tension, tighten cam sprocket bolt, tighten the pump sprocket bolts, remove lock tools, install vaccum pump, install valve cover (if necessary), and any other reassembly.

 

[nkytdi]

I am getting ready to do a timing belt change in a 2000 Jetta TDI. Manufactured 01.2000. I go to the timing belt graph utility in my VAG-COM. I have Golf AGR/AHF/ALH/ASV 4.99> selected for my engine. The timing data shows up near Fuel temp=138 Timing=20, which is slightly below the red line. I am using TDIGraph 1.3d.

The reason for the post is that I get a "fault" message at the bottom of the screen in the field near the engine selection field that says : "Engine (ECT) Not warm enough." Will this message cause me to get erroneous timing data, or is it good enough? The car is warmed up to normal operating temperature (water temp needle vertical).

Note: I know the timing is slightly out of specs but I am not interested in that since I am just testing the system to make sure I am ready to rent the tools and do a timing belt replacement.

 

[MOGolf]

The message will go away if the engine temp is 88C or higher, or you check the box to make it go away at 80C or higher. The needle will point vertical before either of those temps are reached. The observation is good enough for a "before" picture.

 

[nkytdi]

MOGolf ---

Thank you for your fast reply and help. I "ran it up" until the coolant temp data block (Group 001) was over 80C (I clicked the box), then the message went away and a new message (Timing too retarted) came up. Since we knew it was too retarted, it looks like the program is working just fine and I am ready to go.

Thanks again.

 

[golfmk4rd]

2003 VW Jetta TDI 5-Speed - In measuring blocks it shows timing @ 56, Fuel Temp @ 174 but when I switch to basic settings the timing jumps from 50-255 constantly jumping around, and in TDI Timing it reads 0. This is the 4th TDI I have checked timing with VAG-COM and first time I have seen this problem, is the pump going bad?

 

[MOGolf]

timing is mechanically set wrong or the fuel temperature sensor is bad or the pump is going bad (but you'd have pooring running too).

 

[golfmk4rd]

it is running poor intermittently, acts like a gas car running out of gas, it will stumble for a bit then catch up and run ok, fuel filter is next on my list. Are the fuel temp sensors hard to get to? What goes bad inside the pump? I've resealed a few but have not had many bad ones

 

[bobbyggx]

Hey, guys, I just checked my timing.

On a warm engine it shows around 150 fuel temp (is that ok?) and injection around 20, which is just below the red line?
As I read, if I got it right, the timing should be around the blue line.

My car started to smoke a little bit more with full throttle, and I think my millage is lower now, comparing to last year's.

Could the timing be the problem?

Regards!

 

[Ricosuave]

hey guys

ive had some problems with cold starts, and once it got going, it was fine.

just changed the timing belt, and immediately got this problem, thought it was the fuel filter having air in it.

anyway, here is my graph (pls ignore the not hot enough option, as it was the same when I checked it...) you can see the 0,82 at the bottom, where the circle is...

http://img835.imageshack.us/f/39864286.png/

so, until I get get it back and have it adjusted, is there any danger? would there be any potential occurance of it jumping a tooth, or having the camshaft/pistons/etc be in danger for having started it like this for 5 days?

thanks all, anxiously waiting your responses...

 

[manual_tranny]

Rico, do you understand how to do the timing adjustment at the end of the timing belt procedure?

The timing on your map there has nothing to do with jumping a tooth or interference between pistons and valves. This is caused by a roller or tensioner failing or improperly installed, or crank to valve timing set incorrectly during the timing belt job.

When you did the job, did you use all the lock-down tools? Did you turn the engine over by hand using the 12-point nut on the crank? Did you verify that the tools fit back in when the mark on the flywheel was visible in the window on the bell-housing after two full 360deg turns at the crank?

If your physical cam-to-crank timing is OK, lets cross our fingers and hope that there is enough room left in the oval-ish IP sprocket adjustment holes to advance the pump enough to get it to the right spot on your map.

Loosen the three 13mm bolts on the injection pump. Take a 22mm wrench (an adjustable wrench may fit tighter) and turn the nut clockwise to advance timing back onto the graph. (Turn clockwise looking at the sprocket from the right side of the car... passenger side in most countries) You usually don't have to turn it very far, but you are off the graph so you may have to make a few small adjustments to get it right. Remember to tighten the three injection pump bolts after you adjust the timing and fire it back up to re-check!

Good luck!!

 

[Ricosuave]

^ thanks for that

I didn't do it, a shop that specializes in VWs mechanic did, and yes, to my understanding, he did all those things.

it was just alarming to me that the timing was so far out of whack, just wanted to confirm that by having it where it is, that its not going to cause a problem with anything else (admittedly, my poor understanding of the rest).

 

[manual_tranny]

Well, it will cause hard starting, especially in the cold. When the physical timing is this far retarded, the electronics do not have room to bump the timing up very far... so you cannot get very good economy or power when you're off the map by so much.

Glad to hear that my explanation helped you out... hope you get it fixed soon!

 

[FlyTDI Guy]

Responding from other timing thread... You have all the info you need, it would seem. RU good?

 

[manual_tranny]

I didn't do it, a shop that specializes in VWs .. did

Pardon me while I chuckle a bit..

But in all seriousness, lets worry about the work they just did on your car. They already did at least one thing horribly wrong.

While the timing belt cover is off stick a mirror and a flashlight down there and check the tensioner. Look at the how-to change your timing belt guide here on the site or over at myturbodiesel.com Make sure the tension is set properly and the tab is installed correctly in the hole. If you can get a drill bit that fits, rotate the engine until TDC shows in the bell-housing window. Check to see if you can insert the drill bit in the injection pump hole somewhere near TDC. Ideally it should go in with the flywheel mark (inside the bell-housing window) directly in the center of the viewing window.

Use an off-set 10mm wrench and various 13mm sockets to remove the vacuum lines and the vacuum pump. It's easy- it's the thing next to the valve cover on the driver's side of the car. (Left hand drive version) Check to see if your camshaft alignment plate will fit in if you have one... otherwise, verify that it is visually perpendicular to the engine. (not the ground) If it looks like it isn't perpendicular, your cam timing may be off by a lot.

I'd check every roller I could get to and the tensioner with a torque wrench to make sure that they are torqued down properly. I might even consider buying a new bolt kit so that I can take the motor mount off and check to see if everything under the lower covers was installed properly. I suppose at this point, you would have just done the job yourself... but you know what they say... if you want it done right...

 

[Ricosuave]

the tensioner is good:
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8536/p1180006k.jpg

will check the others tomorrow.

i'm confidant that the work done was good, just that the inj pump timing was out. this mechanic has done lots of tdi tb's

thanks for the opinion

 

[manual_tranny]

Great to hear... sorry to sound alarmed, but you're better safe than sorry!

Good luck!

Mike

 

[jasonTDI]

the tensioner is good:
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8536/p1180006k.jpg

will check the others tomorrow.

i'm confidant that the work done was good, just that the inj pump timing was out. this mechanic has done lots of tdi tb's

thanks for the opinion

It's done OK.