Timing going to 0 in basic settings

Cobra_Steve

Active member
Joined
Dec 20, 2004
Location
Tulsa, OK
TDI
06 Jetta / 13 Touareg
Has anyone encountered this? After a timing belt replacement, when trying to check the timing, the measuring block 2 reads close to 55-60 with fuel temp of 110-115. After switching to basic settings, my timing jumps to 0 and obviously the car doesn't like it. If I retard the timing a bit, it won't jump to 0 when switching to basic, but then it seems out of spec. The car also won't reach the 85 (likes to stay at 82) degree mark, but that's a whole other problem at this point.

99.5 Jetta sedan, 5spd w/ 217K miles. Only mods are TDI heater and CAT filter.

Any help is greatly appreciated!!!
 
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MOGolf

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2001 Golf GLS TDI Reflex silver, rough road suspension and steel skid plate, 2004 Passat Variant, Candy White, rough road suspension and geared balanced shaft module, and much, much more. 2016 LR RR HSE TD6, 2019 Jaguar I-PACE
You need to advance the timing not retard it.

Yes, the TDI doesn't fully warm up too quick, and maybe not at all, just idling. Use the TDI Timing Graph function in VAG-COM (assuming you have a version released in the last 4 years). You can check the box near the bottom to say that 80 C is warm enough.
 

Cobra_Steve

Active member
Joined
Dec 20, 2004
Location
Tulsa, OK
TDI
06 Jetta / 13 Touareg
MOGolf said:
You need to advance the timing not retard it.
My post might not have been too clear. The timing is set at close to 55-60, not really at 0. VAG-COM says it is 0 when I switch to basic settings...if I switch back, all is well and #2 says around 55-60. It also runs fine when it isn't in basic settings, but as soon as I switch to basic settings, it starts pouring out smoke and running rough. If I switch out of basic, it clears up and runs fine again...so what I meant by having to retard it is that I would have to lower to around 30 in #2 then it doesn't do this "fit" when I switch to basic settings.

MOGolf said:
You can check the box near the bottom to say that 80 C is warm enough.
Does this do anything other than clear the "Engine coolant isn't warm enough" message out of that display box?...I've been wondering about that.
 

MOGolf

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You check and set the timing in basic settings mode. Advance the timing and get it running right in basic settings mode.

Checking the box just clears the message.
 

TDIwise

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 5, 2002
Location
Midwest
TDI
335d & Cummins
I just got my new vag-com today. I'm also using the latest software downloaded yesterday from the ross-tech site. Over lunch I went and measured my 02 tdi's timing (been having rough cold starts at ~40-45F). I am having the exact same issue with the reading of block 2 in the basic settings mode showing 0. My measurements when not in basic settings mode is block 2 ~ 48 (bounces from 42-51) and block 9 = 120. When I switch to basic settings the glow plug light blinks (manual says this is normal) and I get block 2 = 0 (no bouncing) and block 9 = 120. The engine sound changes but it does not smoke like Cobra_Steve is indicating.

Is there a bug with the new software?
 

wolfsburg_de

Ross-Tech AssociateVendor , w/Business number
Joined
Mar 18, 2001
Location
Lansdale, PA USA
TDI
2012 Passat TDI 6MT
It seems like every once in a while this "issue" comes up, where people are checking their timing and find it to be out of spec, so they assume there must be something wrong with VAG-COM.

It is normal for your glowplug light to flash and for your engine note to change when you go into Basic Settings mode since that allows the engine to run at it's true settings (ignoring leaned values). This is akin to removing the vacuum advance line on the distributor in an old gasser.

There is a very fine line in terms of pump adjustment between being in spec and being out of spec. Per conventional wisdom, if you actually see the pump move, then you have moved it too far.
 

TDIwise

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Joined
Apr 5, 2002
Location
Midwest
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335d & Cummins
Got a response back from ross-tech before anyone responded on the tdiclub. Great service from ross-tech! It's looking like when I had the dealership change my timing belt ~3 months ago they didn't check the timing with their computer. Guess I'll have to do some mechanical advancing of the pump.
 

wolfsburg_de

Ross-Tech AssociateVendor , w/Business number
Joined
Mar 18, 2001
Location
Lansdale, PA USA
TDI
2012 Passat TDI 6MT
One other thing to double check. Make sure you have selected the correct engine code. The phrasing can be a bit ambiguous so:

Check the sticker in your driver's door for the build date of your car. If your Mk4 G/J/NB was built before April, 1999 then you should select this choice:

Golf AGR/AHF/ALH >4.99

If your car was built after April, 1999 then you should select this choice:

Golf AGR/AHF/ALH/ASV 4.99>
 

TDIwise

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Location
Midwest
TDI
335d & Cummins
Mechanically adjusted the timing last night and am now in the upper part of the window. As others have said, it doesn't take much movement to change things a lot. Took me 5 adjustments to get it where I wanted it.
 

Cobra_Steve

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Location
Tulsa, OK
TDI
06 Jetta / 13 Touareg
wolfsburg_de said:
when you go into Basic Settings mode since that allows the engine to run at it's true settings (ignoring leaned values). This is akin to removing the vacuum advance line on the distributor in an old gasser.
Awesome. This is what I was looking for. Turns out that I was reading the instructions for adjustments wrong. When I seen numbers close to what I needed in #2 when not in basic mode I figured I was close. The manual says to adjust the pump one way to advance...I was turning the nut that way, not thinking that the pump is actually rotating opposite in the housing. I was actually retarding it a bit instead of advancing it.

She is running much better now...I appriciate the help guys!!! :)
 

jollyGreenGiant

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2003
Location
Bradford Massachusetts
TDI
03 Golf TDI GLS ( my 5th TDI ), 03 Eurovan GLS - VR6 :(
Remember, the pump can only advance or retard the timing so much. By setting it to optimum ( slightly advanced ) in Basic Settings you will allow the engine to start much better because the engine may not have collected enough information to make an adjustment on initial startup as the engine essentially starts at Basic Setting and then begins adjusting once it's running under its own power.

Also, if it's adjusted wrong in basic settings you're limiting the range that the ECM can adjust either on the retard or advance side. Yes, the ECM can usually take care of this and the engine will run OK if it's out but as stated above initial start will and outright performance can be effected potentially to a large degree.
 

wolfsburg_de

Ross-Tech AssociateVendor , w/Business number
Joined
Mar 18, 2001
Location
Lansdale, PA USA
TDI
2012 Passat TDI 6MT
Just to reiterate, you CANNOT check your timing by looking at the values in group 000 in Measuring Blocks mode. Do not lull yourself into a false sense of security because you find values there that "seem" to be in spec. You MUST be in Basic Settings mode in order to know whether the actual physical timing is in spec, so that you can mechanically adjust it if necessary.
 

Ricosuave

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Feb 10, 2002
Location
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
TDI
See signature!
^ I should clarify. Both my TDI's are rough;y at the blue line, I want to have them closer to the green line.

Where do I make the adjustments, and what values would I put in? By typing the value in the 'timing' box?
 

eb2143

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Dec 26, 2005
Location
Rhode Island
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No it's a physical adjustment on the pump. You loosen three bolts slightly so that you can turn a larger 22mm? center nut. These are not the bolts you can see on the top of the pump, you take off the timing belt cover and it is obvious when you look around the injection pump pulley. It is a very very small adjustment toward (IIRC) the back of the car (CCW) to advance on the ALH. As someone already said, if you think you saw it move, you probably did, and you probably still went too far (especially if you're well within spec already). Do it with the car off if you've never done it before, have the engine warm, and don't forget to select the correct engine from the menu, and please have a good torque wrench. Some early cars also had one-time use bolts for the three you loosen IIRC. Only way to tell for sure is to take them out and look at them; although it is very unlikely you will have to deal with this scenario.
Search for "injection timing + adjustment" or similar and read up some more before you do it (although, really, it's a piece of cake).
 
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MOGolf

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eb2143 said:
It is a very very small adjustment toward (IIRC) the back of the car (CCW) to advance on the ALH.
No, just the opposite. Towards front to advance, to the back to retard (assuming handle of wrench is pointing straight up).
 

eb2143

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Dec 26, 2005
Location
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MOGolf said:
No, just the opposite. Towards front to advance, to the back to retard (assuming handle of wrench is pointing straight up).
Ah shucks I knew I would get it backwards.

Ahh That's right, when I had to adjust my timing it was because I found it to be too far advanced, so I was retarding it...which is the opposite reason most people decide to adjust...
 

madaudio

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Joined
Sep 25, 2006
Location
Apple Valley, California
TDI
98 a3 jetta tdi (ahu)
hopefully wolfsburg_de is listening.. dunno if here's a good place to mention it, but ever since vag-com became vcds, the 64-bit version of the driver doesn't seem to work well. Anyone else here ever try it, or also had troubles?

It reports "too many communication errors to continue" on my 64 bit machine, same install of windows (xp professional x64 edition) that used to work just fine with the old vag-com. I went through the ross-tech site troubleshooting deal, disabling power saving on ports and junk...

then in worked sometimes instead of not at all.

it works just fine on a 32 bit laptop I had to borrow.
 

madaudio

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Joined
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Location
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TDI
98 a3 jetta tdi (ahu)
wolfsburg_de said:
Just to reiterate, you CANNOT check your timing by looking at the values in group 000 in Measuring Blocks mode. Do not lull yourself into a false sense of security because you find values there that "seem" to be in spec. You MUST be in Basic Settings mode in order to know whether the actual physical timing is in spec, so that you can mechanically adjust it if necessary.
So, what about in the measuring blocks, where you can look at injection timing, "requested", and "actual" ..do these indicate anything useful?

These readings state as much as 2.6 BTDC, where good values are listed as 2 to -3.

my basic-settings graph confirms that my timing _is_ overly retarded.

Just trying to understand the process. I get that basic-settings prevents the adjusted timing, but the names of these fields suggest that they have useful indications, and my basic graph seems to confirm that...
 

wolfsburg_de

Ross-Tech AssociateVendor , w/Business number
Joined
Mar 18, 2001
Location
Lansdale, PA USA
TDI
2012 Passat TDI 6MT
madaudio said:
hopefully wolfsburg_de is listening.. dunno if here's a good place to mention it, but ever since vag-com became vcds, the 64-bit version of the driver doesn't seem to work well. Anyone else here ever try it, or also had troubles?

It reports "too many communication errors to continue" on my 64 bit machine, same install of windows (xp professional x64 edition) that used to work just fine with the old vag-com. I went through the ross-tech site troubleshooting deal, disabling power saving on ports and junk...

then in worked sometimes instead of not at all.

it works just fine on a 32 bit laptop I had to borrow.
Please email me directly:

support@ross-tech.com
 

Railroad

New member
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Feb 6, 2009
Location
Romsey, Hants. UK
TDI
Skoda Octavia Elegance
If you adjust the timing without first going into Basic Settings, of if VAG-COM is not available, does the ECU recognise the change? Or does it compensate by putting it back to where it was before?

In other words, can you guess the correct timing setting and be accurate, even if by chance?......
 

compu_85

Gadget Guy
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Sep 29, 2003
Location
Springfield VA
TDI
... None :S
Yes, but that's not recommended at all. The ECU is always changing the timing dynamically, using the inputs from the 3rd injector and crank position sensor. That's why a car with timing that's really far off can still run ok-ish when not in basic settings.

-Jason
 

Kite_rider

Member
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Mar 10, 2009
Location
Bend, OR
TDI
2010 JSW
Have the same issue - pump bad??

Excellent post! I'm getting the exact same thing - car starts hard, smokes when cold and then runs reasonably well. VAG-COM timing reads '0' in the baisc settings and the car gets very smokey and runs rough. My mechanic says he tried to mechanically set the timing, but the best he could do was get it to around 20 - but then he said it was running worse.

So he now thinks the injection pump might be going bad. Before I go off and spend big $$ on a new injection pump - I wanted to get a second opinion. Is this the way a faulty injection pump operates? Is it really impossible in some cases to get the injection timing mechanically set to the spec levels?

Thanks.
 

MOGolf

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Since you're in Bend, OR, send a PM to whitedog. He might be able to help you determine the answers to your car. It could be that the entire engine timing isn't set correct.

I just reset the timing on a car last night. It was way over advanced off the chart and could not be physically retarded down to spec until I physically put the entire engine (crank, cam and pump) in proper physical time.

And we have seen some pumps fail with your symptoms.
 

paramedick

TDIClub Enthusiast, Vendor
Joined
Jul 29, 2001
Location
Versailles, Kentucky
TDI
2015 Audi Q5 TDI, 2000 New Beetle
Just an offbeat comment. Recently had a car that would not display a value in the TDI timing graph. Bad fuel temp sensor. Replaced and all worked perfectly.
 

whitedog

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Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
And we have seen some mechanics fail with your symptoms.

Mark and pray. Second timing belt and still the original TTY pump bolts. Bumped it a tooth and away it went.
 

MOGolf

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Location
underneath something
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(pat on the head) Good dog. :)
 

whitedog

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Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
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It's not done. :(

It was dark and getting colder. At least now it's showing on the graph. I think it's at about 57 but I didn't even get the right engine and it was a cold engine. We will readdress it Friday. It'll run much better until then.
 

Kite_rider

Member
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Mar 10, 2009
Location
Bend, OR
TDI
2010 JSW
Whitedog is the best!

Whitedog nailed it right on! :) This forum is fantastic and I can't tell how thankful I am.

I had my timing belt changed back in July of last year, I think I didn't notice the hard and smokey starts till winter. But what a difference it makes.

Whitedog - you ROCK!!
 
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