Timing belt screw up mean bent valve? Help needed!

[Vegified TDi]

Hi. I was helping a friend by replacing her timing belt today. It is a 2003. I did my own last year following the instructions on here with no problems. Mine was an automatic and this one a standard...that's the only difference. The timing mark was hard to find but I think I had it right. I used the crank lock, the cam lock, and the fuel pump pin. Put it all back together, pulled the locks and turned it by hand with my breaker bar tool. It seemed fine. I tried to start but sounds like there is no compression. I then realized I had not tightened up the fuel pump bolts. So rechecked everything, reset everything....but now I can't move it by hand past half a turn of the camshaft...it seems to be hitting something? Valve maybe? I hope not. This is the flywheel mark that I was using..frick how do I add a picture...


What do I do to try to fix/diagnose? I took everything off and reset it alll again with same problem. Maybe the belt if hanging up? I could take the lower timing belt cover off again....

Thanks

Torie

 

[Seatman]

Whip off the valve cover and check the tops of the lifters all look good, if they do then get the thing to tdc again and make sure that the first two lobes, timing belt end, are sitting up in a V configuration.

 

[Vegified TDi]

What does "look good" look like? Lobes are up. Locking plate in place. Pin in the pump and timing mark set...

Are we not able to post pictures anymore? I'd like to show the pictur on the timing mark.

 

[Vegified TDi]

Also, when the lobes are up are all valves supposed to be out of harm's way? Or is it still possible to hit?

 

[Vegified TDi]

another hypothesis related to stuck valve possibility

As I was laying in bed not sleeping last night because of racking my brain trying to figure out what the problem could be, I had a thought. When I removed the EGR valve in order to reach the corner valve cover bolt, chunks of carbon fell off. It definitely needs an intake cleaning as it is worse than even my own Jetta was. I am wondering if some of those chunks became dislodged and were sucked into the intake when I went to start it later (rookie move).

Could a piece of carbon be keeping a valve open, thus giving me resistance on the manual turning over of the engine etc?

If so is there a way to confirm and repair?

Thanks for the help.
Torie

 

[TDIJetta99]

There's no cam position where ALL of the valves are out of the way..

Get the locking tools in place, tighten the belt, tighten your cam gear and injection pump bolts, remove the locking tools and turn the engine by hand and see if it goes all the way around..

Another thing you can do is remove the camshaft (should be easy enough with the belt off) and see if the crank will turn all the way around.. All the valves should be closed and all of the lifters should be at the same height with the camshaft out..

 

[greengeeker]

Another thing you can do is remove the camshaft (should be easy enough with the belt off) and see if the crank will turn all the way around.. All the valves should be closed and all of the lifters should be at the same height with the camshaft out..

This is what I would do.

Once you've verified it spins freely place the crank at TDC (or slightly before) and reinstall the camshaft at or near TDC. Lock the cam down and finish the job. IF you find that the crank wont spin around freely I would remove the cam followers (since you already have the cam out) and see if any of the valve tips are sitting lower than the others.

 

[Vegified TDi]

Anything special in removing and installing camshaft...ie shims or seals that I won't have?

Thanks for the ideas everyone!

Torie

 

[TDIJetta99]

you should have gotten a new cam seal with the timing belt kit (all of the reputable vendors put one in the kit).. Other than that there's really nothing special with R&R-ing the cam.. Just make sure to seal off the corners of the first and last cam caps..

 

[Vince Waldon]

... and loosen / tighten the cam caps a bit at a time, in sequence, so that lifter pressure on the cam is relieved gradually. The service manual has the correct sequence... but you can fake it by just taking your time and doing the nuts a half-turn at a time.

 

[Vegified TDi]

Okay, I pulled the cam out. All lifters "appear" up. I turned the crankshaft but it still stops at the halfway around from TDC. I'm getting more nervous. Do I need to pull the head?

Torie

 

[migbro]

Okay, I pulled the cam out. All lifters "appear" up. I turned the crankshaft but it still stops at the halfway around from TDC. I'm getting more nervous. Do I need to pull the head?
Torie

Maybe you left the car in gear.

 

[Vegified TDi]

So it seems that the crank stops when the second and third cylinders are at the top. I can push down slightly on each valve. There must be something stuck on the top of 2 or 3....what do you think? That means pulling injectors, intake manifold and exhaust manifold in order to get the head out...doesn't it?

 

[greengeeker]

Did you remove the cam followers/lifters?

 

[Vegified TDi]

yes. All valves appear the same height and can be pushed down when pistons not at the top.

 

[Vegified TDi]

I removed injectors and made sure all pistons moving. It is a hard stop when cyclinders two and three are up. Seems to be some debris on the top of piston 2...but I don't understand why it is such a "clunk" when it stops.

I blew compressed air in to make sure valves were seated...it seemed like it, though my seal was questionable. I also put suction on each injector hole with same basic effect when I pushed down on each valve.

It seems plausible that there is debris on top of the piston but the hard stop 180 degrees either way of TDC doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Thanks

 

[TDIJetta99]

To get the head off, disconnect the turbo and the few small items on the driver's side of the head, then there's 2 small bolts holding the upper part of the inner timing cover to the head, then it's just the 10 head bolts and it'll come off..

There's got to be something in there, and it's easy enough to pull.. The head gasket is less than $50 and the bolts are really cheap too..

 

[Vegified TDi]

Thanks TDIJetta99.

Just to clarify, I need to pull the intake and exhaust manifolds off correct? I think I have most everything else off because of the timing belt change procedure. I want to make sure I have the intake and exhaust gaskets I need.

 

[AndyBees]

Reading thru this Thread, I've come to the conclusion something is on top of a piston(s).

If you remove the head, make sure the coolant drains* out good.......less mess to deal with and also will allow you to look at the area(s) of probable contact, damage, etc. Point is, if crud fell into the cylinder it may just be "stamped" on top of a piston(s) and no contact was ever made with a valve (which would be good).

*You can remove the coolant flange and T-stat to access an area below the head level to vacuum out the coolant ........works really good!

Another thought: One cylinder at a time, with piston up, press down on the two valves. If you find one that will not press down, then it may have curd on it or on the corresponding spot on the piston........... It may be possible to loosen the curd with compressed air via the GP hole.........while holding the valve down. If it is an intake valve, you may need to pull the Intake so the stuff will blow-out.

Just thinking out loud there with ideas that may save pulling the head.......

 

[TDIJetta99]

The head can be pulled with the turbo and intake on, but it's MUCH easier to lift it off if you take the intake/turbo off.. the turbo you can leave in the engine compartment, just take off the oil lines and the lower support bracket and it will move out of the way enough to get the head out..

 

[AndyBees]

The head can be pulled with the turbo and intake on, but it's MUCH easier to lift it off if you take the intake/turbo off.. the turbo you can leave in the engine compartment, just take off the oil lines and the lower support bracket and it will move out of the way enough to get the head out..

That's how I've done it. And, I did it that way with a 99 NB........ just let the Turbo flop over against the firewall!

 

[runonbeer]

The head can be pulled with the turbo and intake on, but it's MUCH easier to lift it off if you take the intake/turbo off.. the turbo you can leave in the engine compartment, just take off the oil lines and the lower support bracket and it will move out of the way enough to get the head out..

In other words you can leave the downpipe hooked up and just shove it back out of the way.

I also like to stuff a long straw from my shop vac down into the recesses of the coolant outlet flange area so the cylinders don't fill up with coolant when I lift the head. It isn't the end of the world if they do but you want to be able to look down into 2-3 as soon as you get it off to see what was in there. Won't be so easy if the cylinders are full of fluid.

 

[fierodough]

I really doupt carbon deposits can be strong enough to stop the piston when turning by hand... It would just crush to dust. Are you sure you cam lock, locking pins, crank lock etc are all removed? transmission in neutral?

try removing the glow plugs in case it might be hydrolocked.

Is the accessory belt back on?

Nothing fell into the inspection hole on the transmission?

Could be you are using the wrong timing mark on the flywheel. they look different on an auto vs manual..

 

[runonbeer]

I really doupt carbon deposits can be strong enough to stop the piston when turning by hand... It would just crush to dust. Are you sure you cam lock, locking pins, crank lock etc are all removed? transmission in neutral?

try removing the glow plugs in case it might be hydrolocked.

Is the accessory belt back on?

Nothing fell into the inspection hole on the transmission?

Could be you are using the wrong timing mark on the flywheel. they look different on an auto vs manual..

Well, he said he pulled the cam.

 

[fierodough]

Well, he said he pulled the cam.

Pulling the cam means all the valves are shut. It can be hydro locked.

I can see a bolt or something locking the engine if it fell in.. A chunk of carbon?? Not impossible I guess but not likely...

 

[TDIJetta99]

In other words you can leave the downpipe hooked up and just shove it back out of the way.
I also like to stuff a long straw from my shop vac down into the recesses of the coolant outlet flange area so the cylinders don't fill up with coolant when I lift the head. It isn't the end of the world if they do but you want to be able to look down into 2-3 as soon as you get it off to see what was in there. Won't be so easy if the cylinders are full of fluid.

I typically pull one of the hoses off the oil cooler.. it drains the coolant down to about 1/2" under the head surface.. I do like the shop vac idea, I'll have to give that a try next time..

 

[Seatman]

There was a thread like this not so long ago on here, the guy had been cleaning the intake etc and had knocked a bit of crud into the intake and it stopped the engine turning over pretty good if I remember right.

I don't think it would take much to stop a piston like that considering how little room there is between the piston and head.

 

[TDI Mason]

I don't think it would take much to stop a piston like that considering how little room there is between the piston and head.

^^^ I agree ^^^

 

[AndyBees]

Well, you will be surprised at how just a little carbon can lock the engine.

I know it's a different engine altogether, with the pistons laying on their side. But, several years ago, my rail buggy engine locked after sitting all winter (inside in a heated building). I attempted to start the engine and in about a half crank of the starter, it was locked. I rotated the engine backwards a full 360 degrees and it locked. Hit the starter....same thing.

When I removed the head, carbon had flaked off and piled up at the bottom of the cylinder. When the piston traveled up to the head it was blocked from going any farther.

In this Thread, we are talking about a diesel engine with extremely close tolerances!

I've always wondered how many TB failures were a result of carbon "chunking" out of the Intake ......... think about!

EDIT: Re-reading some of the OP comments..... locking at only 180 degree rotation! Wow! Scratching my head now!

 

[Vegified TDi]

Here's the update. Thanks everyone for your ideas and help!

I finally got the Jetta going tonight.

I ran around Tuesday finding the head gasket and headbolts and other gaskets. I pulled the head with turbo and intake manifold attached Wednesday and found a lot of grime on top of pistons 2 and 3. I cleaned it all up. Cranked it by hand to make sure it turned over. Cleaned the intake and put it all back together and after much injector bleeding finally got it going tonight.

Amazing how a little carbon build up could cause me this much grief. I won't make that mistake again. Best not to remove the egr.

Torie