Timing Belt Change Hell

eb2143

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Location
Rhode Island
TDI
None
Another Question :eek:
Just before I tension the belt, the cam will be locked with the sprocket bolt loose, the injection pump will be pinned with its 3 bolts loose, but I've heard three methods concerning the flywheel:
a) Should the flywheel be at exactly TDC with the car in neutral and no crank lock?
b) Should the flywheel be exactly at TDC with the car in neutral but a screwdriver shoved between the flywheel and bellhousing to act as a crank lock (I don't have metalnerd's)?
and c, the one I've been trying to get an answer on for weeks) In order to get the crank - cam timing perfectly on the ALH, the flywheel can't be exactly at TDC when you tension. It must be slightly off and it will be pulled into perfect alignment when tensioning

TIA
 

migbro

Veteran Member
Joined
May 19, 2010
Location
Lincoln, Mass.
TDI
2003 Golf GL
Cam Seal

Another Question :eek:
Just before I tension the belt, the cam will be locked with the sprocket bolt loose, the injection pump will be pinned with its 3 bolts loose, but I've heard three methods concerning the flywheel:
a) Should the flywheel be at exactly TDC with the car in neutral and no crank lock?
b) Should the flywheel be exactly at TDC with the car in neutral but a screwdriver shoved between the flywheel and bellhousing to act as a crank lock (I don't have metalnerd's)?
and c, the one I've been trying to get an answer on for weeks) In order to get the crank - cam timing perfectly on the ALH, the flywheel can't be exactly at TDC when you tension. It must be slightly off and it will be pulled into perfect alignment when tensioning

TIA
From looking at your picture of the back of the cam sprocket, I would definitely replace the cam seal. Here's why. It's a piece of cake. The old seal comes out easily after you loosen the cam bearing cap and the new seal goes in very easily also. Lube the seal surface with engine oil before installing the new seal and retorque the bearing cap bolts to 15 ft.lbs. Then clean the cam taper with acetone or similar.

On the crank timing. I used a crank lock when I did my TB. But it's my understanding that even if you don't use a crank lock the crank does not move when you tension the TB. The reason for this, I suppose, is that it takes more torque to rotate the crank than to rotate the (loose) cam sprocket on the cam taper or the (loose) IP sprocket on the IP hub. So the motion of the timing belt during tensioning moves the cam and IP sprockets but not the crank.
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
It doesn't matter if you lock the crank or not. After the belt is tensioned but before you torque the cam or pump bolts, recheck the crank position and return it to TDC if it isn't there. The sprockets will move just like they did when you tensioned the belt. It's the end result that matters: all three components in the proper position.

Now torque everything and verify again that the crank stayed put.

Use the crank bolt to rotate the engine after everything's tight, not the cam.
 

eb2143

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Location
Rhode Island
TDI
None
Thanks for all the crank advice everyone.
I got the bracket out. WP made room. With WP out, engine in a extra low position did it for me.

I'm still undecided on the cam seal; I've got about 10 minutes to decide. I don't want to have to tear it apart because I damaged the seal's lip on install or anything. EDIT: I have the Teflon seal and I ain't waiting 4 hours before I turn the crank, so it's staying in.

I am aware of the "gotcha" parts of that job: like the nuts down the oil galleys and the sharp edges of the key slot (use electrical tape is recommended).

I've read not to use any lube when putting it on though because of the new style's material. Any other opinions?

One quick new question on the upper roller: I don't know if it matters, but "INA" and P/N face out (i.e. contact the bolt head), right? I wasn't paying attention when I took it out.
 
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paramedick

TDIClub Enthusiast, Vendor
Joined
Jul 29, 2001
Location
Versailles, Kentucky
TDI
2015 Audi Q5 TDI
Cam seal is probably fine based on picture. Spilled oil will run down behind back TB cover and mark it's spot on the cam gear hub.

Hint, leave the lower small roller out and the belt on the outside of the stud. THEN slide engine mount in place with upper of the two lower bolts in place. Push mount up, and put belt on inside of stud. Put roller in place and tension nut. Put upper TB cover in place and secure. Then put mount in place and secure the two lower bolts.

Trying to put the mount in with a tensioned belt is a PITA.
 

eb2143

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Location
Rhode Island
TDI
None
Don't look at the time stamp on this, but I'm done (had a commitment from 5:30 to 11 pm, finished up when I got back).

Started up everything sounds normal. Injection pump was dead on the blue line after the procedure, as it should be. I advanced it just a tad. Test drive was normal. Belt tracks on the inside but the previous two did too. No oil leaks from cam or VC that I can see.

Other than taking longer than I thought—total working time not including prep and putting stuff away will be about 14 hours, of which about 2 hours was wasted fooling with the engine bracket/learning the correct order to re-install and another 30 minutes getting the upper intercooler pipe to go in below the headlight housing—this was far less tedious than some jobs I've done on the car. It was kind of interesting in fact to learn how it's indexed.

In any case, time will tell (knock on wood).

- Saleri waterpump with resin impeller was chosen.
- Continental belts.

So if you're a shadetree contemplating doing your TB and you have the tools (good torque wrench and VCDS in addition to TB specific tools) and space, and can pay attention to detail, I say go for it. Between the HOW-TO PDF, OldPoopie's checklist (helps on reassembly especially), Myturbodiesel.com's HOW-TO, the Cinci HOW-TO movie, and the Bentley, the info is there for the taking and then some. I actually had all of these sources on hand at once, so I spent A LOT of time cross checking. Probably not worth it, but interesting to see the slightly different methods. DO NOT use the DVD as your primary source.

My tip to contribute is that the two-spanner wrench for the tensioner works very nicely for opening and closing your coolant drain valve.

paramedick said:
Hint, leave the lower small roller out and the belt on the outside of the stud. THEN slide engine mount in place with upper of the two lower bolts in place. Push mount up, and put belt on inside of stud. Put roller in place and tension nut. Put upper TB cover in place and secure. Then put mount in place and secure the two lower bolts.
^I had this in my list of tips I generated by searching, and I still screwed it up a bit. I don't know if it was my car's tolerances or something else, but I had the darndest time slipping the belt under the horn on the bracket, even with the bracket loose, on reassembly only. I ended up having to take the tensioner and lower roller off. Maybe I didn't have the engine height ideal or something. I can say it was impossible on mine to get the bracket out with the WP installed, at least without doing something extreme to engine height. I also spent a good hour extra on the upper timing belt tin! For whatever reason, on reassembly, even with the mount loose and free to rotate upwards, I felt I needed to remove the serp. belt tensioner to get it back into position correctly.

KXCD said:
After the belt is tensioned but before you torque the cam or pump bolts, recheck the crank position and return it to TDC if it isn't there. The sprockets will move just like they did when you tensioned the belt. It's the end result that matters: all three components in the proper position.
^ I was a tooth out after tensioning, and I did end up doing this. I was a little nervous only because I've never seen it mentioned--doesn't mean everyone doesn't do it because it's obvious, but my understanding based on what I hear on this forum is that people usually take the tension off, slip the cam sprocket off and the belt off the crank, reset the crank, and try again. If it keeps coming up off, then they set the crank slightly off and then pull it to TDC on tensioning. I couldn't think of any reasons that turning the crank back into position with the pulleys loose would do any harm; the pulleys can rotate while the pump and cam are locked, so great tip.
 
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Dimitri16V

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Location
DE
TDI
01 Golf, 04 Golf
do you still have your old tensioner? If the noise is constant then the belt is probably rubbing. I would check the water pump to ensure that it is in complete direct contact with the block. I know that when I did mine, it was a bear to come off and go on. Also diesel geek doesn't include the stretch bolts for the water pump that Bentley says VW recommends replacing. The recomended torque value for those bolts is relatively low. Everything else is stationary or straight forward. I doubt it would be the cam sprocket because that does bolt on with one bolt and seats in one position.

stretch bolts on the water pump ? ???
 

2k_GLS_TDI

Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2005
Location
Lone Star State
TDI
Jetta GLS 2000 Green
Glad I'm not the only one who noticed the Dayco TB makes significantly more noise that either of the previous two (Conti & Gates) I've used.
 
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turbocharged798

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
I just installed a Dayco HD belt on my ALH and its now sounds like the cross between a super charger and a fire engine siren when I rev it. This thread make me feel better that its normal and not somthing I did wrong....


Oh, here's tip for people out there. Don't throw bolt away assuming your kit includes them. I took out the waterpump and tossed the bolts assuming they were TTY and the kit included them. When I went back several days later, I realised that the kit did not include waterpump bolts. I thought no big deal, they are just 6mm. Wrong. They are 7MM!!!! Impossible to find at most hardware stores!!!! By just plain luck, my local napa had 7MM bolts in stock. That nearly held up my project another week and a 1 hour trip the the stealer.
 

manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
I'm happy to see that this thread is helping a few guys cope with their belt whine sound after changing their timing belts. My whiney sound pretty much went away...

In other news- I stopped worrying about whining noises in general. As a result, after replacing the serp. path on my VR6, I had a whining noise I ignored. 17K miles later, blammo, busted water pump. I bought this pump new from from ECS tuning, $65.22. I should have left the original in the car, it already made it 200K trouble-free miles. :(
 

visionlogic

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2006
Location
Daphne, AL, USA
TDI
2002 Jetta TDI
17K miles later, blammo, busted water pump. I bought this pump new from from ECS tuning, $65.22. I should have left the original in the car, it already made it 200K trouble-free miles. :(
OUCH! I just despise bad QC! A person can bust-a-hump to do every little thing exactly right and then be bitten badly in the a$$ by bad QC. :mad:
 

eddie_1

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
Has anybody had a good experience buying anything from ecs? One time I bought a exhaust clamp and it was not the advertised size. They never replied to my emails.
 

manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
Yikes! I wish I had talked to you Ed... before I bought a bunch of stuff from them. The other "goodies" I bought were way overpriced. Fortunately, the water pump is the only part I bought from them that can fail.
 

hawk1039

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 1, 2007
Location
Leesville, LA
TDI
2002 Jetta tdi
Need help, hopefully posting on the right thread, I'm in the middle of a timing belt change and my manual trans flywheel has No TDC mark... I used a micrometer to get the #1 cylinder as close as I could to the highest point. I'm on the fence between 2 teeth, don't want to destroy engine. ( I loosened the cam and Ive been using the crank bolt in a clockwise pattern) I have VAGCom, hopefully one or 2 teeth of will not bend valves?
 

hawk1039

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 1, 2007
Location
Leesville, LA
TDI
2002 Jetta tdi
Actually I replaced the engine a couple of years ago ( crate engine ) didn't think about TDC mark before install, it has no marks as far as I can tell. After reading this entire thread I should be able to rotate the engine by hand after putting everything back together? I guess a smooth compression resistance is to be expected?
 

ymz

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 12, 2003
Location
Between Toronto & Montreal
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI Wagon, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon
The marks on the harmonic balancer aren't accurate enough for setting timing... You're better off putting a probe down the glow plug hole for Cyl. 1 and using a dial indicator...

Yuri
 
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Location
Stafford Virginia 22556
TDI
96 glx variant tdi
While the mark on the crank isn't "accurate", it certainly will tell when the flywheel mark should be visible in the window (if it exists). A can of brake cleaner goes a long way in cleaning off clutch dust to help find the mark.
 

hawk1039

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 1, 2007
Location
Leesville, LA
TDI
2002 Jetta tdi
The crank marks confirmed my TDC glow plug measurements, there are no marks on the flywheel!!, double checked everything and rotated the eng, normal compression, buttoned everything up, car cranked right up, block 2 was 94 and block nine was 97. I will research advanced settings, any suggestions on the timing advance? Also thanks for the help.
 

manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
The crank marks confirmed my TDC glow plug measurements, there are no marks on the flywheel!!, double checked everything and rotated the eng, normal compression, buttoned everything up, car cranked right up, block 2 was 94 and block nine was 97. I will research advanced settings, any suggestions on the timing advance? Also thanks for the help.
Look for a thread called ”tdi timing revisited”.

Simply put: Advancing the pump angle physically will only advance the available timing WINDOW... (except for at start-up where the physical pump angle effects the start of injection timing until running)

The other timing advance is found in adaptation mode. To use it, (and many other useful vcds features) press the ”login” button (took me a minute to find) then enter ” 12233” (without quotes). Press the ” adaptation” button. One of the options in there adjusts the injection timing across the entire injection timing map. Notice, there is a warning against advancing the timing with this method! It will increase peak cylinder pressures, which may cause accelerated wear. BUT! Many of us are successfully running 18 psi tunes with the maximum 5 degree adaptation advance and have not yet experienced ill effects. I choose to advance my adaptation timing 3.5-4 degrees for safety. The advance mod has been found to decrease low end torque and increase high end power.. very nice mod for an automatic transmission mkiv (01M)

I was told that some tunes may ignore the adaptation advance mod, but I haven't seen enough evidence either way to be sure if that is correct.
 

Growler

Got Soot Vendor
Joined
Nov 24, 2003
Location
Millersport, Ohio
TDI
Schmutz, 2015 Golf Sportwagen DSG & Schnurren, 2001 Golf GL 2 door 5M
M_T, the auto transmission is an O1M, the 5 speed is an 02J

Just sayin.. :)
 

3turboz

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Location
Tempe AZ USA
TDI
2000 Golf GL Wolfsberg
Wait, your screen name is Manual Tranny and you have an automatic????

Why do you say that that advanced timing is good for the auto, because it reduces torque load?
 

manual_tranny

Smyth Performance- Intern
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Location
New Bedford, MA
TDI
2001 Golf @182K; 2000 Jetta @290K
Wait, your screen name is Manual Tranny and you have an automatic????

Why do you say that that advanced timing is good for the auto, because it reduces torque load?
Say what you want about my heritage, my mother, my foolish decisions our thoughts... I don't care! But, call me an automatic transmission owner just one more time and I'll cloud up and rain all over you... :cool:

No, Manual_Tranny drives not the automatic transmission.

And yes, torque limiting is exactly why I believe that advancing the timing may help the 01M. :)
 

3turboz

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Location
Tempe AZ USA
TDI
2000 Golf GL Wolfsberg
A thousand pardons :D

I misinterpreted your post as suggesting that since you did this mod and you thought it would be good for the 01M, that you had an 01M.

BTW, Having been forced by left foot and knee problems to give up all my stickshift cars, I humbly but hapily drive an 01M.
 
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dieselfuel

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2008
Location
ohio
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI
I would set the timing in adaption to 1.8 btdc. I tried it at 3 & 5 btdc, but I thought it robbed low end power. I set it at 1.8 btdc, and I'm real happy how it runs set there.
 
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